[Closed] Moral medical / work dilemma

As others have said get a letter from your doctor. You don't make someone who has a fear of heights climb up ladders etc.

If work insist on you going make sure you have discussed this with the doctor contracted by you employer for disability/illness situations. Also getting there is one thing.
Once in Florida if you feel nervous or stressed then you can check into a much more expensive US facility... I would imagine that after the fall out from that bill and the questions as to why someone made you go when you have a doctors letter on file would prevent it ever happpening again.

You mention moral.
Right then, if you can fly for a holiday, then you can fly for work. The latter pays for the former. Get your priorities right. I do sympathise, I oath flying, it gives me bad dreams for months before. I do fly about once every 5 years to keep the wife happy but its misery.
If flying is that bad then don't go where you can't drive. Alright stress etc may make one type less bad than another but I fully understand that your boss may be less than impressed. Personally I feel that if flying is essential for your job, you shouldn't be in it. Sorry but that's a fact. You wouldn't ask a wheel chair user to climb trees and the user wouldn't expect a job that needed that skill without being able to do it. A sympathetic boss may be able to re allocate roles maybe?

Personally I feel that if flying is essential for your job

It isnt. Did you read any of my posts?

[quote=Kryton57 ]Thm - its clear people dont believe / understand the seriousness of what i go through. No choice but to either show them, convince work for a free pass, or resign

I reckon most of the posters on here [i]are[/i] sympathetic to your plight and [i]are[/i] trying to understand your problem but then many of those are also suggesting you should drop all flying, not be seen to making a choice which you might find difficult to defend. That's the fourth option that you've ruled out of your last sentence above. You've said before that you [i]are[/i] impacted by how others see you. Consider how this must look to many of them. Still, if you're the best performing salesman then you must have some ammunition at your disposal for a free pass 🙂

As others have said get a letter from your doctor.

This is the obvious part, and certainly good advice.

However, I go back to my earlier point about perception. The letter from the doctor needs to dispel any possibility of the employer [i]thinking[/i] "will fly for fun, won't fly for work". Sadly, Kryters, you've painted yourself in to a corner a little by flying. I can't blame you for doing so, especially given family etc, but getting rid of that perception isn't going to be easy, even if the perception is misguided.

Fair point ScotRoutes.

you are impacted by how others see you

Just to say this is much less of an issue now.

CFH i dont disagree, which is why i should go for others to observe just how bad it is and realise its not just an excuse.

IMO everything you are doing to try and get rid and control your fear is just feeding it. Such as getting caught up in worrying about it, talking about it, trying to medicate it, CBT'ing it. The fear relies on you paying attention to, through being scared of it, it to maintain it.

As the fear is stored subconsciously, due to a past event, you don't have immediate conscious control over it.

However, the best way to indirectly get rid of it is to allow it and get on as if nothing is wrong. So you get on flights (maybe short haul ones first), feel the fear as you will experience it, don't pay too much attention to it and repeat with subsequent flights. Slowly the fear will come down and eventually the fear part of the brain will get the message that planes are not to be scared of, and it will not activate the flight or fight response when you take planes in the future.

It isn't easy but it works for other fears as well. Look up desensitization if you like.

Just to say this is much less of an issue now.

This is a good thing.

Ditch the flying, both for business and pleasure.

Kryton57 - Member
you are impacted by how others see you
Just to say this is much less of an issue now.

Good stuff, it's a tricky road I'll give you that.

It is quite liberating once you realise nobody really cares much about other people... they are too self aware and caught up in their own dilemma.

I cant type fast enough. 😀

Xcracer, i just had the same conversation with Mrs K an hour ago. Before i fly i get into the habit of re reading stuff, looking at weather, understanding the plane ill be on etc. I think im probabaly winding myself up.

I talked to her about more activly using the last set of techniques my Hypnotist gave me which have worked for driving over some high things and are based on desensitisation - im successfully driving over some raised sections which I used to avoid. At which point i need to put this thread to bed.

This is a good thing.

It was part of my counselling. Its made an impact on my racing as well as my personal life.

I'm a manager. Personally I'd be all over HR and OH with this and dumping it in their lap. It's an area well outside my expertise and if / when it gets complicated I'd want to make sure I'd covered my bases. But I work in upstream O&G which has a very different corporate environment.

If your manager isn't then I echo previous advice about doctors letters etc.

Though not as extreme as your problem, I've found he desensitisation technique worked for me when I was doing lots of mountain scrambling. Each year/season I had to gradually work up to steeper and steeper stuff until I was happy with it.

I head over to Andalucia most years and I'm always terrified the first time I'm on any of the steep mountain roads. By the end of the week, I barely notice them.

Mind you, when I visited Toronto a few years ago, my "justification" for heading up the CN tower was that, as I'd been up the tallest publicly accessible building in the world, I'd never have to do another as I'd have nothing to prove 😆

So far to summarise....there are two camps

1. Check your contract, work cant make you fly, they are aware of the issue, your hols are your business etc

2. Mtfu, if you fly on hols then you can fly for work, your work won't be happy etc.

All that really matters to you is which camp, 1 or 2, is your boss in and not what you hope think you can do about the situation.

The old 'do it under sufferance and make sure everyone is either aware or miserable as a result' is not the grown up answer.

I know its easy from the outside but to me this is binary. You either can or you can't. The issue is, you're picking and choosing when you can which looks disingenuous.

If it's a big deal, stop it until either you can or don't do it at all. If you don't do it for personal travel and are backed up by the quacks, the contradiction ceases to exist.

Have you actually discussed the issue with your employer?

Have you even been asked to go?

Or are you going into meltdown because your boss is a twunt?

In fact despite my lack of 2017 attendance I am currently Europes best performing salesman by quota, so it wasnt too detrimental.

But didn't you previously have a thread where you were worried about hitting/missing targets?

What responsibility are your employers prepared to take if you have a crisis or medication issue whilst on company time? Short term and long term?

You need clarity on this. When you choose to fly in your own time, this responsibility is on your shoulders, but if they are asking you, especially when aware of your issues, the responsibility is theirs.

perchypanther - Member
You should get the Audi.

Waits for naval gazing threads with such memorable titles such as "What sunglasses for my German executive car".

Take a big old slice of mtfu.
Its funny how that phrase is utterly condemed in the many depression threads on here, but has been used or implied liberally in this one. This isnt a choice, its an irrational mental and physical reaction which effects me outside of this subject also.

Because this isn't a case of depression. You've just got to bite the bullet.... Similar to when you approach that sketchy drop out on the trail and each time you grab the brake,shake your head and walk the bike down the chicken run.
At some point you can build yourself up to riding it with out grabbing at the brake on the approach and you sail over the drop wondering what the problem was.... It wasn't depression, it was fear...

Did we not have this exact thread about 6 months ago?

You can choose to put yourself through things your boss can't demand you do, it's that simple. Everything else is just politics. The contractual/fitness for work thing is totally seperate from "I'm flying to go on holiday".

For all of it do you want to work there?
If you do how can you make things work without the travel and does it make it somewhere you still want to work.
Personally I'd be looking at other jobs that don't have that requirement/aspect to it.
For me it's not a question about right, rights or wrong it's about are you both living up to your expectations.

Regardless of work/home separation you have put yourself in a position by being able to do something one day and then not the next. It's up to you to be honest about how much of your job that is and to instigate a sit down with management about how that impacts your role and how it can be managed.
Be aware that one of the solutions is it doesn't work and both of you moving on could be the outcome.

I wouldn't do anything for work I wasn't happy to do, end of. In your situation there is no way on earth I would take the Florida flight - I would just steadfastly refuse to go.

However you would potentially have to deal with how the company felt about this and the ultimate outcome this could lead to. My personal situation is that I could walk away from work tomorrow (no mortgage, house paid off, no loans etc) and find myself another job without drama but I realise not everyone is in this position and this might be a better way for you to look at it?
If by refusing to go would this lead to more (financial) stress if you found yourself out of work?

This is going to sound brutal, but it's coming from someone with 15+ years in sales.

In our line of work, you belong to the company. Your feelings, outside concerns etc are irrelevant - you are employed only to generate revenue. Stop generating revenue or miss targets, you're gone. Piss off bosses, you're gone. Not going to a company sales conference but flying on holiday puts a MASSIVE target on your back.

You either get need to be outperforming the rest of the sales operation by the magnitude of 500-1000% to have more leeway on things (but even then, only by arrangement) or get fixed and go. But definitely don't rub their noses in it by flying on holiday, whatever the hidden facts. As someone once said "perception is reality" - give the impression you're taking the piss, it'll be treated as such.

I'm not saying this to be harsh or do the whole MTFU thing, merely to offer an insight from someone else in the same profession.

Personally, I wouldn't be taking a shed load of drugs just to go on holiday. You say your family deserve it, what about you deserving not to have to fly, which they must see causes huge problems for you?
If you drove/ferried to your holiday, the work issue would be easier to explain.

Is there any way you could combine the conference into a family holiday also?

At least that way you have the comfort/security of travelling with your family.

I find it quite sad reading this back this morning, Also there is [i]some[/i] genuine empathy and pieces of advice in the thread for which I'm grateful, the majority of it is either minor character assasination or a complete denial of the issue being irrational, involuntary and medical.

I'm ending my contribution here, but lets just say that I am as unable to explain why I made it to Menorca and back last year, but this January came-to next to my suitcase in the front door frame with my 4yo daughter rocking me and shouting "mummy mummy, daddy won't wake up". That brought me to tears and yes maybe I [i]should[/i] stop flying per se, but having booked the flights packed a suitcase an been on my way out the door for work, blacked out, seen a Dr, been prescribed a course of Propranolol and referred to councilling I would have thought be evidence enough for any individual to see I actual have an irrational psychlogical problem and MTFU is not the answer .

As usual with STW when you post something clearly quite poignant and important you have to filter through the rubbish to get to the good stuff and develop a thicjk skin for the rest, but its a pity here that the latter is more prevelant that the former.

Andyrm - I get that, I'm a few years in myself - you really have to be in Sales to "get" sales as outsiders only see the shiny suits and customer lunches which is the tip of the iceberg in working hours and spinning plates of the role and I'm aware I'm isolating myself from the boys club, but I'm more than happy to be asked to move on.

Bye for now.

Not read whole thread.

Is there any reason, while on vacation, why you have to tell your work where you are going and how you are getting there? If they don't know you are flying, this is a non issue? What business is it of theirs where you are outside of work hours? If you had thought this through, and could keep your month shut for more than 2 minutes, this would not be a issue?

Tell them you are staying in a remote farmhouse in Northern Scotland with very poor internet or phone access. Or something.

As usual with STW when you post something clearly quite poignant and important you have to filter through the rubbish to get to the good stuff and develop a thicjk skin for the rest, but its a pity here that the latter is more prevelant that the former.

You can't just categorise anyone who disagrees with you as rubbish.

At least that way you have the comfort/security of travelling with your family.

I read to the end to suggest something very similar to this: would taking your wife with you to the conference help in any way?

It does seem like the OP was looking for justification for the decision he has already made.

You can't just categorise anyone who disagrees with you as rubbish.

Dont put words into my mouth, that isnt what i said Jamie. Some of the things i didnt / dont agree with Ive changed my mind or am taking time to think about and have not categorised as rubbish. And then allthegear starts with said referenced implied character assassination ^^

Enjoy your k57 portrait you are all busy painting, would be nice to think you could bear in mind theres a decent family man and human being with a strong working ethic behind the text. I'm out of this thread.

I'm ending my contribution here

Dont put words into my mouth, that isnt what i said Jamie.

Shortest flounce ever :-)? I think you will have to lower your expectations on 'sensible/sympathetic only replies' on here given your previous!

It's work, it's somewhere to go for 8hours so you don't have to watch Jeremy kyle on tv during the day. They also give you money every month.

Whatever job you do isn't worth the stress and anguish this Florida flight is putting you through. Tell them it's not happening - end of.

Life's too short to do things you hate doing.

MTFU and help your company understand why you won't be flying for them.

I think most people are sympathetic, but are pointing out how your actions might be perceived

I'm out of this thread.

And I think we have broken the record for shortest time between a double flounce! If someone could post the 'Flounce one niner, ready for take off' pic that would be nicely ironic.

I feel a bit sorry for Kryton, but he does bring things on himself (on here, and at work). A bit of forward thinking, and engaging brain before mouth, does look like it could avoid some of these issues.

Aside from the above, best advice on the thread is if flying is THAT bad, drive to the South of France instead.

Classic kryton thread -

1. Posts up his latest middle class angst
2. Gets told something he doesn't want to hear
3. Realises the internet isn't full of people who will tell him what he wants to hear
4. Flounces
5. Starts next middle class angst thread a couple of weeks later

Yes, i was getting inceasingly more nervous of tubulence having experienced some frequent nerve racking experiences back and forth to Shetland/Western Isles over 3 years

Have you flown to Barra? One of my colleagues, on his first flight there, realised the plane was descending at an alarming rate heading straight for the shoreline. He assumed the brace position and shouted clearly and loudly for all other passengers to do the same. Fortunately they all survived.

Here's a picture of Barra airport.

[img] [/img]

I'm afraid I can't offer any advice Kryton as I like flying and I ignore HR stuff, but it sounds horrible and I hope you find a solution.

I won't go in to details here, but I get it.... I get the unable to do something in one scenario, but in another scenario you're fine with doing the same thing.

Depression, anxiety and panic have no rhyme or reason at all, it completely messes with your head (well, obviously) which utterly baffles you, which messes your head up even more, things then just spiral out of control.

Sadly your company aren't being very sympathetic, however that's business, they're doing the bare minimum they have to do to make sure they are "caring" for their staff..... Basically making sure their arses are covered if they ever have to sack you for this

If they do sack you, would you have some unfair dismissal case? I have no idea, but worth looking in to it (Main point re the travel part not being in contract)

Anyway.... what I've found over the last 6 years is that life is too short to be in jobs that make you ill, your health and well being is far more important to your family than a wage packet.

Take some time off, for you, for your health, think about what you'd actually like and enjoy doing.... It doesn't matter about the money, there are jobs out there..... Hell I even stacked shelves for a while, anything was better than being in an office!

Good luck, and take care of yourself, not a company who couldn't give a toss about you

We had the correct answer on the previous page.

Personally I'd be all over HR and OH with this and dumping it in their lap.

If you explain the situation to Occupational Health via HR, they almost certainly wouldn't even [i]allow [/i]you to take the trip let alone pressure you into it. A company knowingly putting an employee into a position where they could black out or worse could be in very deep shit very quickly. And that gives you a handy get-out - "I'd love to go, boss, but HR won't let me."

I don't know anything about "sales culture," but ultimately you work to live. If a job's affecting your home life - and it evidently is if you've spent all weekend worrying about this - then it's just not worth the hassle IMHO. Nor is a job that will be career suicide for not going on some back-slapping jolly, for that matter.

as above , contact OH and HR with a letter from your GP .

As for dealing with it,

It's very clear to me that some posters on here have never had to deal with a real, irrational phobia. You've had counselling, hypnotherapy, drugs, courses... I'm sure it never occurred to you that all you need to do is MTFU and it'll all go away. 🙄

My OH beat a fear of flying by intellectualising everything (because she's Aspie and that's what she does). She boned up on what all the different noises are (so went from "what the hell is that?" to "right, that's the flaps being raised") and what all the procedures and suchlike are.

You mentioned turbulence and that can be scary, but think about it - what actually happens? You get shook about a bit... and that's it. No plane ever fell out of the sky ever because of a bit of turbulence, it's like a side wind on a motorway. I was once on a plane that hit a pocket of 'dead air' - the plane lost a couple of hundred feet of altitude in a split second - and then carried on as normal because we still had another 38,800ft below us.

The other thing is, as you touched on yourself, distraction therapy. You're building this up into a Big Thing for months, it's no wonder you're a wreck by the time you're boarding. Stop it. Every time you start to worry about it, go do something else. Watch TV, talk to your family, go out for a ride. When on the plane read a book, stick your headphones in, do anything other than sitting there looking for things to be nervous about. Get it into your skull that it's "just" a flight, it's "only" a plane. Treat it like getting on a bus.

I spent a fortune on cbt and hypnotherapy to help me fly.
All I really needed was one lovely little diazepam.
Knowing that I can drop a tablet and make everything OK means that some flights I don't even take one.
I know this doesn't help the OP but it m8ght for other people.
Before boarding a flight to Barbados there was a girl near us absolutely in pieces . I offered her a tablet but she said she had her own and was scared to take them.
I explained how useless I was just an hour ago and here I am looking forward to my holiday.
We saw her later on with a huge smile on her face and she gave us a double thumbs up as she walked down the plane.

Have you considered studying aerodynamics? I'm not being flippant -

You mean you know how aeroplanes fly???

OP.. I posted a fairly lighthearted and unhelpful comment on this thread earlier however given the general response has been mtfu i'll jump back in.

As said, I have exactly the same dilemma and issue. It's got nothing to do with mtfu. Yes it's an irrational fear, but it's also very real for you and me, and Imo manifests itself in a similar way to ocd (which I have also been treated for)

Fortunately for me my working requirements are only in the uk, so I get the train. I tackle holidays in a similar way to you, lots of prescription drugs.. Note.. I found out that an early morning work meeting and diazepan don't go well..!

Anyway, I'm not going to try to offer a solution, just wanted to let you know that many of the posters on this thread don't know what they are talking about.

tl:dr the thread but if going on holiday is good why not get the company to book the family on the trip as well. Florida doesnt seem like a bad destination 🙂

Personally if it has this much of an effect on your well being I'd consider a desk job or a video conference

This is one of many problems that could be solved with an identical twin.

Not a [i] totally[/i] identical twin...

An update.

Cougar - thank you. I took on your advice and it was of help

I still got butterflies and quite nervous the morning of the flight, but that started to recede after the propranolol kicked in. 5mg of diaepam pre flight and 5 after take off but unlike previous flights I able to enjoy reading a mag and dozing a bit. There were a few bumps over Grenoble and although this stirred my nerves I was able to not have to grab the arm rests.

I guess I'm not ever going to be the most comfortable flyer but at least not winding myself up has made it a little more bearable, and the propranolol is a lot safer than the diazepam / tamazepam combo.

30 degrees here in Menorca at 11am

Good. As I said before dont try and stop the fear. You are fighting with your emotions. Your emotion of fear.

Just accept for a while you will feel scared on a plane. Dont add or try to get rid. Let it be there. And do something else, read a magaxine or something. Over time you will then desensitize to this unconscious fear.

Whilst you will have to feel the fear in the short term, consciously you have a choice whether to be pulled into the fear or to focus on something positive instead.

Well... ****.

Not as good on the way back. I used exactly the same techniques but as soon as we took off i knew i was more nervous. The first 20 mins were "rumbling" as we roae throught he cloud layers. Then all was clear but my nerves were jangling away.

The final straw was as the seat belt sign went on and we hit some quite severe bumps that waggled the wings. I was gone at that point atrapped in the mid air crew seat, only to return to my own as we went through a bumpy holding pattern through the low Gatwick cloud layer.

I may just have to accept flying isnt really for me.

I may just have to accept flying isnt really for me.

It happens to the best of us.

I have the exact issue you have but its down to heights ( I can't go up ladders and feel funny in lifts/high buildings. I don't fly and can't take propanalol due to my asthma. I've used diazapan before which helped but still felt hellish.

in a previous job the said I had to go to Poland for a conference and I said I would go if it was by train and they wouldn't pay for that so didn't go. When I had a review the flying issue came up, it was an EU collaborative research program. They said I should have known I would need to fly and told them that flying isn't the only way to get to Europe. I wasn't kept on for another contract lol.

Unless it was explicitly pointed out in the job description or interview that you were required to go abroad then they can't fire you for not flying. Going to the EU is different as you can get the train.

Not as good on the way back.

maybe because you're coming back to reality, on the way out you were escaping things.

With all that stress you went through surely two weeks holiday would have made more sense.

Sounds perfect Kryton, you can fly for holidays, it's only the coming back that's the problem.