I've posted on here before that i have a really bad fear of flying. If i was alone in the world, its something I'd choose not to do. However, i love hot sunny lazy holidays abroad and so does my family - and they deserve it - so despite years of flying experiences, CBT, Hypno, TfT, counselling etc i resort with my doctors permission to medicate my way between destinations.
My soon to be short trip to Spain for the family holiday will be with Propranolol plus Diazepam, long haul adds Tamazepam in-flight. Despite at "high" doses those I still fly very awake (Tamazepam does knock me out for 6 hrs with bouts of wakening), scared and tense and find the whole thing very stressful.
So here's the dilemma, I agreed, tried and failed with a blackout level panic attack this January pre-flight to attend a work conference in Florida. No doubt it cost the company money for me to not be on the plane, but I sought help and received councelling through my company medical insurance.
It was commented - part flippantly is my understanding - by my manager yesterday that "if I can get on a plane for Holiday I'd better be on the plane next January".
Where do I stand here? My councillor did tell me that there often is a psychlogical difference between how I can percieve destinations, the time of year and the weather involved, familiarity with the plane and route all of which adding up to the fact that an unfamiliar journey adds to the effect. Theres also the genuine stress that actually ive no desire to do this, wheras i have a desire for holidays.
FWIW im a UK employee without international expecations in my contract.
I'd like to know where I stand contractually, and any advice of how to deal with the pleasantly and proactively at work to gain an agreement / expectation in advance of money being spent would be appreciated.
Over to you.
A work colleague goes to Spain for his hols, he hates flying so they drive and use the ferry from UK -> Spain. Couldn't you do the same ?
Its a bit more tricky to get to Menorca and Barbados by car. But in principle yes, with the exception that my issue also includes driving over high things with drops aka bridges and mountain passes type stuff.
Shakey ground if you are flying for holiday.
While in principal I agree with your boss.
What business is it of his where you go on holiday ?
Allthegear - Thats why i agree to this years failed trip. I agreed to try it, the outcome was not deliberate and I was straight to the docs for post examination hence prescribed the propranol for 4 days - and then used as needed - and referred to counselling.
Trail rat - do you? Would you enforce an non-international employee onto a plane under those circumstances with my history?
Your manager is being an arse. Get a letter from your doctor with what you've posted here and send it to him cc'ing HR. It is not acceptable to have to medicate for a work trip.
Your manager owes you a public apology.
There's clearly a difference between flying to a shitty work conference with colleagues you, at best, hate, and going abroad for a relaxing holiday with your loving family by your side.
As people mentioned when you first posted this, if you are flying for pleasure you really should also be flying for buisiness.
Can you not just do it more so it becomes normalised?
Not again Shirley????
Get on the plane for work if you e been asked to go. If you can go on holiday by plane, you can go to work on a plane.
Stop taking the drugs, they fuel the anxiety defence systems you are building up.
Plenty of advice on the other thread you created on the same subject..
Jeeze..
Theres also the genuine stress that actually [b]ive no desire to do this, wheras i have a desire for holidays[/b].
Be careful how you discuss the issue with your boss and the words you use, because the above would make me less than sympathetic to your case.
If your contract does not say you can be sent abroad then I don't see a problem.
Your manager is being an arse.
He also could be reading this. 😀 Like I said, I understood it to be a flippant comment a jovial setting, but the purpose of this post is to prepare myself in advance for a more formal conversation that either offers me the opportunity to travel with my blessing, or no pressure on me to do so on the basis that my company has a full, factual and honest explanation as to why that might be.
Get on the plane for work if you e been asked to go. If you can go on holiday by plane, you can go to work on a plane.
Its been said more than more once already - read my OP. A professional psychlogical opinion explains why that might not be the case.
Trust me, ive tried to get over this since 2003, this isnt a recent / lack of effort issue on my part.
I am 50/50 on this one. Can see both view points.
Don't agree with your boss but it does seem like card is being marked, will the process you use to get on a plane, long haul to Barbados not work for US as well? Maybe you need a chat with your boss before the situation comes up to clear the air. I hope you're not driving a hire car when you land in Spain, diazepam has a low legal threshold for driving in U.K. Iirc. Good luck with boss
I've a degree of sympathy and agree that while you may be willing to medicate for a fortnight's holiday with your loved ones you shouldn't have to do it for work.
On the other hand neither do you need to be going to Menorca or Barbados, yet you choose to in spite of all the difficulty, need for medication and upset. Other holiday destinations are available.
I'd say you have a clear medical reason not to go on the plane. What else you do as regards vacations etc is irrelevant - your boss is not a doctor and has no place second guessing medical advice.
Having said that, your boss then has a clear reason not to consider you for promotion or a bonus or whatever.
If you're taking that combination of medication to get on a plane then you're quite possibly not fit to work anyway. My last 2 places wouldn't have let me near anything on that mix.
Equally I'm not sure you should be taking them for flying in general either.
Another one who can see this from both sides. It can easily look like you are making excuses to not go on a work trip while jetting off for a fun holiday is no bother, even if this is not the case.
One possible way to calm your work situation is to explain that the medication you need to get on a plane makes you so drowsy and non-functioning that any work will be of poor quality or dangerous with regards to mistakes made etc. While on holiday you still suffer from the medication's side effects but you are able to cope as your partner can drive/organise/care for you. This would also apply to the return trip with having two flights close to each other (say within 2-3 days as you mentioned feeling drowsy for 4 after a flight) exacerbating the problem.
Have you tried one of the fear of flying courses? Both EasyJet and BA have good ones.
For the next conference in Florida scope out getting there via cruise ship from Southampton.
It does sound a bit like there's no way they can make you go based on your medical history but also it could be professionally limiting if you keep passing up opportunities.
Flying for holidays will also lose good will because your boss and colleagues aren't psychologists and won't understand the difference.
A colleague and friend of mine was told he had to travel to Brest to attend a course, his manager asked whether he wanted to fly or ferry, he asked his manager if he had ever watched Airplane ? before the manager could answer he then asked if had ever watched the Poseidon Adventure !
The poor bloke just stood there dumbfounded, my mate then traveled from Leeds to Brest via the tunnel and booked overtime all the way as it was on a Sunday.
Virgin and BA, yes. Its actually a fear of falling I have.
so drowsy and non-functioning that any work will be of poor quality or dangerous
Id be landing on Saturday, sitting in presentations Monday.
Equally I'm not sure you should be taking them for flying in general either.
My Doctors thoughts exactly. Although ive taken Diazepam and Tamazepam together before, he wants that to stop. The Propranolol replaces the Tamazepam.
Just as a side note; Im under no illusions that if my contract were changed or I was offered an international role I wouldnt accept either. Also my employer was very aware of my issues before this role was offered or accepted.
I'm not seeking justification, sympathy or validation here, just communication / contractual advice.
Tell him you're trying to fly for holiday partly in an attempt to come up with a better medication strategy in order to be able to fly for work, but you don't know if it's going to work for you, and his support is, as always, greatly appreciated!
Plus a couple of hours to Spain does not equal a longer haul flight to Florida.
Have you considered studying aerodynamics? I'm not being flippant - I also have issues on high bridges, alpine roads, tall structures and even mountain tops (though not as serious as yours). However, a good understanding of aircraft design and construction seems to have made me completely comfortable when flying.
As for your current situation, if your role includes a fair expectation that annual conferences and the like are expected then your boss has a point. If it was me, I'd knock the family holidays on the head until I'd resolved it. There are lots of other places you could go on holiday without subjecting yourself to that level of distress, but then only you can judge the balance between what you get out of your holiday and what it takes to get there and back.
I flew a lot for work. I once had a panic attack, fortunately it was on a hop to Aberdeen and I could bottle it up, and it was never repeated. You have my sympathy.
you work for a global company, I doubt the pressure to travel to international events isn't going to go away anytime soon despite your contract not explicitly stating it.
I know it won't make a rational jot of difference, but you've talked about doing a reasonable amount of driving mileage for work. There is way more risk there than flying...
Personally I'd change jobs.
Is there anything in your contract about "travel may be required..."?
Whilst your boss may not be able to do anything legally, I'd say you're limiting your "promotion" prospects...I.e. Your future with the company. If I was your boss, I'd understand if you told me you could only cope with couple of hours flying to Spain, but I'd be far less sympathetic if you then said "oh but I can go to Barbados for my hols"
Find another job where you don't have to fly. Or at least restrict family holidays to short haul. Whatever the technicalities, if you can fly long haul for pleasure it looks as though you should be able to for work.
Edit - what 2dogs said
Whatever the technicalities, if you can fly long haul for pleasure it [b]looks as though [/b]you should be able to for work.
Sadly, this is it. The biggest problem here is one of perception for your employer. That perception is that you [b]can[/b] and [b]do[/b] fly for fun, but you [b]can't[/b] and [b]won't[/b] for work.
So, you either need to find a way to totally dispel that perception, or sadly, suck it up and fly.
Jesus some people really are slaves to their jobs.
This sounds really simple; one you want to do, the other you don't.
Unfortunately, we don't always get to choose what we do at work and your reason for not doing so is diluted by the holiday flight precedent you've set.
Ultimately 'they' can't make you do anything but they can retaliate when the goodies are being handed out.
Sadly, this is it. The biggest problem here is one of perception for your employer. That perception is that you can and do fly for fun, but you can't and won't for work.So, you either need to find a way to totally dispel that perception, or sadly, suck it up and fly.
Before this thread - and perhaps after - this is where i am. Sitting bravely but visibly trembling with your wife is somewhat different to doing so in front of your work colleagues nevertheless.
Next weeks flight will be the first with propranolol, so ill see if that helps.
Genuine question - why don't you just go somewhere warm that you can drive to for your family hols?
I'm damn sure I would in your position.
Because he's prepared to put up with the aggro for jollies but not for work i.e. the root of the problem.
@kryton If it embarrassment you're suffering from, go on a different flight or do they charter the whole shebang?
my mate then traveled from Leeds to Brest via the tunnel
There's a disaster movie about a tunnel under the sea that collapses. Cannot remember what it's called.
I'm not helping very much am I?
Ill just add but i dont know if this has a bearing; this first time this happend was in 2001, when a former employer forced me into a position to go to NZ threatening me with the sack, resulting in my first ever blackout at Heathrow. I was also then suffering re-mortgage and relationship issues and spent 6 months on AD's.
It could be the physcological "work" link coming from that.
I thought most contracts had a 'we can ask you to work wherever we want' type clause.
And if the company is going to loose money by you not travelling it sounds reasonable that you should be expected to fly as part of your role.
Contract aside you are loosing the company money (as you have stayed) by not going, therefore I think your chances of staying in the company are limited unless you can still fly
Kryton57 - Member
Ill just add but i dont know if this has a bearing; this first time this happend was in 2001, when a former employer forced me into a position to go to NZ threatening me with the sack, resulting in my first ever blackout at Heathrow. I was also then suffering re-mortgage and relationship issues and spent 6 months on AD's.
There's your problem, you are probably physically bringing that situation up each time you fly...
[quote=FunkyDunc ]I thought most contracts had a 'we can ask you to work wherever we want' type clause.
Possibly not, but if there was a "reasonable expectation" that flying abroad might be required when taking on the job then that could be important in any contractual/disciplinary discussions. The OP did say that this problem was mentioned when taking on the role so must have known it was possible. OTOH the employer also knew there might be an issue and this is where the "OK for holidays" "not for work" disconnect is. TBH, if all other avenues had been explored then I'd be looking for another job because wh'd want the stress of possible legal action if/when your employer decides they want you out.
Life is too short to worry about things like this. Be up front with your boss and tell them you are not going in January, full stop. You can stop worrying about it then. I understand that you make a sacrifice at great expense to your health so your family can have a nice holiday. You are under no obligation to go through it twice in a year to please your boss. Why should you care as much about work as your family? If you have not discussed this with your family, I would seriously consider not flying for your holidays though, since it causes you so many problems. Why not drive and ferry, or catch a train to the south of France? There are lots of sunny places you don't need to fly to get to!
If it is a long-haul for work once a year, then I would medicate for it - on certain anti-anxiety medications, with enough dosage, you simply wouldn't be able to have a panic attack.
If work demands you fly more than that, then I'd say upfront, I can't do that, and see what they say, or leave the job.
The manager's comments were snide and suggests he/she is a bell-end.
In terms of the panic attacks, I think it's likely you are not afraid of flying but that you suffered a big panic attack in an airport and now your nervous system associates it with danger/fear. Perhaps you could work on that angle with the therapist.
You should get the Audi.
I absolutely get where the OP is coming from. I fly on holiday, but i wont fly for work
My rational, I'm not going to risk crashing in a ball of flames for my employer, but for a week in the alps i'm prepared to take my chances
You need some CBT. You have a phobia linked to a specific event, it can be fixed.
What, precisely, is it that bother syou about flying? I know you said falling, but this isn't common for phobias about flight.
