[Closed] Moral medical / work dilemma

You need some CBT. You have a phobia linked to a specific event, it can be fixed.

He tried that apparently.

I can understand a crippling phobia that prevents him from doing something like flying but I have a really hard time thinking of something that I like so much (Barbados, whatever) that I'll endure the nasty stuff for, if it is as nasty as described. If his boss is as non-perceptive as me it's clear it will have a negative career impact.

DrJ - your point is appropriate. But, its not rational and there lies the problem.

Or, just tell your boss you're driving on holiday. It's the apparent rubbing his/your employers nose in it that's the issue.

Or, just tell your boss you're driving on holiday

Must admit, if I had a phobia relating to flying there's NO WAY (barring total one-offs like funeral of someone really close to me) I'd be on a plane in my leisure time. I definitely wouldn't ruin my holidays by taking meds that affect me for 4 days out and 4 days back again

THAT is the shit you don't want in your life - drop that hassle/anxiety and your working problem disappears. 2 birds with one stone

What rsmythe said. Tenfold. Life is much better since I stopped giving even half a toss about work.

first time this happend was in 2001, when a former employer forced me into a position to go to NZ threatening me with the sack, resulting in my first ever blackout at Heathrow

... or were you already anxious about flying prior to that?

It is entirely reasonable that specific context would be a trigger whereas other contexts would not. Your boss need to be reminded that mental health issues are also HEALTH issues. I would be doing so in writing, copying OH

OP - I hope you don't mind me linking to your previous thread. It might provide more background.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-real-fear-of-flying

I hope you're not driving a hire car when you land in Spain, diazepam has a low legal threshold for driving in U.K. Iirc.

My own perspective on the (very slight) risks when flying is that I cannot control what happens, and so worrying about what might happen is a waste of mental and nervous energy. Obviously that is a rational perspective, and just because I think that way does not make me right or clever - it's simply the way I am (and a bad flying experience might completely change my attitude).

I raise the issue of being 'in control' or able to influence the situation, because I know that some people cannot stand being driven in a car, but are quite happy when they are the driver.

Obviously BA are not going to let you sit in the co-pilot's seat. However, I wonder if for someone for whom the usual course offered by BA etc. has not been successful where the course is focused on the passive experience as a passenger (and so not in control), whether the opposite approach might work. In other words, would someone with an extreme reaction to sitting in a passenger seat be better able to cope and overcome those feelings and fears, if they had even a little experience of flying a plane?

I am not necessarily suggesting this for Kryton57, but I imagine that it would be possible to spend quite a bit of time in a flight simulator learning the basics, before going up with an instructor in a training aircraft, and the experience of being in control and flying the aircraft might make it easier to adjust to being a passenger in a jet.

If you told our Occupational Health what you took to get yourself on a plane, there isn't a chance in hell you would ever travel by plane on business.

The anxiety probably puts you within the protection of the Equality Act (and your manager on dodgy ground) but you can understand if the simple version he sees is "won't fly for work, but is happy to jet off on holiday." A letter from your doctor to the manager, OH (cos it's medical) and HR (cos it's Equality Act stuff) should suffice.

Can you expand on this please. I always drop one or two 2 mg diazepam when I arrive at Gatwick. 5 hours later I will picking up a hire car in Majorca.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/drug-drive-legislation-am-i-fit-to-drive

It is a defence if your driving is not impaired (the target is abusers, not those with prescriptions). Anecdotally, a typical prescription should see you just under the limit but tolerant people may well be given more and be over.

Can you expand on this please. I always drop one or two 2 mg diazepam when I arrive at Gatwick. 5 hours later I will picking up a hire car in Majorca.
Am I on dodgy ground here?

(and if you also had dectectable alcohol levels I'd be among those baying for you to be banned & possibly jailed)

Kryton- what are you expected to [i]do[/i] on this work trip? Is there a chance that it's what happens at the far end that causes your anxiety too? Maybe you don't like mingling with strangers or you have to stand up and give a talk of some sort. Could it be you're uncomfortable being there with your peers and maybe in being measured up against them?

scaredypants - Member
Or, just tell your boss you're driving on holiday
to Barbados ?

With disinformation, less is definitely more... 😉

hmmmm

for some, I suspect going to Barbados and not telling anyone about it may be worse than the flight

There lies the problem. Gobbing off about going to the Caribbean one minute, refusing to fly for work the next...

That may seem a little unfair but it's probably the impression given.

to be clear - at that point you had no prior anxiety about flying at all and it was just the being forced to travel (plus your personal stresses) that caused this
... or were you already anxious about flying prior to that?

Yes, i was getting inceasingly more nervous of tubulence having experienced some frequent nerve racking experiences back and forth to Shetland/Western Isles over 3 years

Its the turbulence / anticipation thereof that scares me. Yes, ive read all the de bunking.

Gobbing off

Not the case, we go once every 4 years or so to see family there. Its not boast.

Kryton- what are you expected to do on this work trip? Is there a chance that it's what happens at the far end that causes your anxiety too? Maybe you don't like mingling with strangers or you have to stand up and give a talk of some sort. Could it be you're uncomfortable being there with your peers and maybe in being measured up against them?

No. Its a Sales kickoff. We listen to the execs telling us the good/bad of the previous year, this years focus, recieve awards if appropriate and get pissed in the evenings. Not really pressure or a hardship. I should say i went to a similar event in Frankfurt, but took the train.

It's not remotely unfair if travel is not part of the job. There must be plenty of people with eg caring responsibilities who cannot go off travelling at request of job, even if they can do it for holidays. Either the OP has an obligation to travel in which case he needs to either suck it up or change contract/job or he doesn't, and in neither case are his holiday plans any of the company's bloody business.

I'd be on the Eurostar to the south of France if I was scared of flying.

My opinion is the same as those above, its up to you what you do on your hols.

But if I was your boss I'd think you were taking the piss. Your scared to fly but you choose to do it in your free time!

Maybe next Florida business trip could be tied in with a Florida holiday?

Just to confirm in simple terms.

Won't fly for work as scared
Will fly on holiday as not VERY scared
Boss questions this
You feel hard done by

Imagine you asked your boss for Monday off to kick puppies. He says no as it's gonna be a busy day. Then you discover he's given both himself and your colleague the day off, AFTER you asked, so they can kick puppies together. He's being selfish, it's impacting on the business and is unreasonable.

That's what you're doing.

There are very few occasions where MTFU is appropriate, but this is one. Pull yourself together, you great sausage.

It's not remotely unfair if travel is not part of the job.

Do people have contracts that explicitly state that travel is or isn't part of their job? Just asking as I have no idea. I don't think it's mentioned in my contract - I just assume that from time to time I get asked to go somewhere that may be convenient or pleasant or the opposite, and I go.

Yes and long hours if required.

Kryton have open and honest conversation with boss. You have a phobia about flying. If you cannot overcome it, don't fly. Simple. Avoid the drugs solution - and frankly docs who recommend it - sort the issue out don't mask it with drugs - too many colleges have gone down that crap route IME.

Be honest, be open, be true to yourself. No way I would expect an employee to fly under such circumstances.

(FWIW as a frequent flyer, I find long hails much much more relaxing that shirt haul, but accept the "long" bit might be issue for you 😉 )

I've always had to work hours and location as required. In practice lots of flexibility but occasionally insisted on such that consistent refusal would have been disciplinary/job-losing.

I've always had to work hours and location as required. In practice lots of flexibility but occasionally insisted on such that consistent refusal would have been disciplinary/job-losing.

I've always had to work hours and location as required. In practice lots of flexibility but occasionally insisted on such that consistent refusal would have been disciplinary/job-losing.

Won't fly for work as scared

Anxiety /= scared

Did you miss the bit about panic attacks and blackouts?

I'm torn on this one.

There's the very logical and unemotional side that says flying for work in more stressful than flying for pleasure and they're not really the same thing.

But then there's the other side that says "okay, flying is crap for this guy, but he CAN do it when he wants to".

The think if you go down the HR route you’ll be fine, but it won’t be penalty free. When it comes to managers, they know, because that's how you become a manager how to "play the game" I know some who'd publicly say "we understand flying is an issue for you, we'll only assign you jobs in the UK" whilst at the same time putting you right at the top of their shit-list forever more, especially after the failed attempt.

Personally, I wouldn't tell anyone from work my holiday plans, you leave, you come back - who's to say if you went to Barbados or Bognor, or a tunnel to France. Publiclly saying you cannot fly for work, whilst admitting you can fly for pleasure not only alienates you from your boss, but from your colleagues who have to trek across the world for work when you get to stay at home with your family.

If Social Media or work/social over-lap makes that impossible, then another tactic would be to agree to go and “do my very best, I have a plan, got the right drugs etc” this makes it your Managers gamble, not yours, it’s up to them then to decide whether they want to be the one who screwed up with this guy twice.

Anxiety /= scared

Did you miss the bit about panic attacks and blackouts?

Nope, was cutting to the chase, your selective quote undermines your argument. Want the day off to kick some puppies too?

Im with your boss. Take a big old slice of mtfu.

Im with your boss. Take a big old slice of mtfu.

Anxiety doesn't mix well with MTFU, it causes panic attacks which leads to fight or flight responses - blacking out is bad, trying to punch your way out of Heathrow is worse.

Take a big old slice of mtfu.

Its funny how that phrase is utterly condemed in the many depression threads on here, but has been used or implied liberally in this one. This isnt a choice, its an irrational mental and physical reaction which effects me outside of this subject also.

Ive been a manager - several times - and I'm of the nature to apply empathy to this situation. I joined a small UK only operation which was then aquired by an American corporate. Therefore the international travel didnt feature but was created not of my choosing.

Anyway, thanks for the input. Im well aware that it may be career limiting or ending Im happy to make that choice. But applying my own management style to the situation i wouldnt "strongly convince" an employee with my issues or record - part of which attempted resolution is through the companys own medical referral - to perform such an uncomfortable action. If they were valuable to me I'd seek a common ground where their localised value helped me and they could allow other employees to take international opportunity. In fact despite my lack of 2017 attendance I am currently Europes best performing salesman by quota, so it wasnt too detrimental.

On the basis of is thread then nothing has changed. Still very few people seem to understand what this means, or the mental diffrentation from holiday to work, but it has helped me see the outside perspective. I feel i only have one course of action - that is to take the US trip and let my colleagues see how I'm affected and perhaps let them realise the outcome. In fact this reminds me i did this for a trip to Dublin, and my colleagues then commented on the "nightmare" i was going through - they were different colleagues so may I could refer to them to my current manager.

Same 'ol then. I shall pop the pills and look forward to some Spanish beer and Sunshine next week knowing thats the carrot at then end of a rather challenging stick and accept its my lot in life.

Not sure how that choice helps anyone least of all you. But your choice so good luck

(Try to stay off the meds on flights)

Thm - its clear people dont believe / understand the seriousness of what i go through. No choice but to either show them, convince work for a free pass, or resign.

Some proper awful folk offering advice on this thread who should of really just pressed the back button and kept their "advice" to themselves.

Kryton, your comment about mtfu and other threads is entirely justified. I'm with you on that.

I've no advice on your situation but I feel your pain.

All the best 🙂

As others have said get a letter from your doctor. You don't make someone who has a fear of heights climb up ladders etc.

If work insist on you going make sure you have discussed this with the doctor contracted by you employer for disability/illness situations. Also getting there is one thing.
Once in Florida if you feel nervous or stressed then you can check into a much more expensive US facility... I would imagine that after the fall out from that bill and the questions as to why someone made you go when you have a doctors letter on file would prevent it ever happpening again.

You mention moral.
Right then, if you can fly for a holiday, then you can fly for work. The latter pays for the former. Get your priorities right. I do sympathise, I oath flying, it gives me bad dreams for months before. I do fly about once every 5 years to keep the wife happy but its misery.
If flying is that bad then don't go where you can't drive. Alright stress etc may make one type less bad than another but I fully understand that your boss may be less than impressed. Personally I feel that if flying is essential for your job, you shouldn't be in it. Sorry but that's a fact. You wouldn't ask a wheel chair user to climb trees and the user wouldn't expect a job that needed that skill without being able to do it. A sympathetic boss may be able to re allocate roles maybe?

Personally I feel that if flying is essential for your job

It isnt. Did you read any of my posts?

[quote=Kryton57 ]Thm - its clear people dont believe / understand the seriousness of what i go through. No choice but to either show them, convince work for a free pass, or resign

I reckon most of the posters on here [i]are[/i] sympathetic to your plight and [i]are[/i] trying to understand your problem but then many of those are also suggesting you should drop all flying, not be seen to making a choice which you might find difficult to defend. That's the fourth option that you've ruled out of your last sentence above. You've said before that you [i]are[/i] impacted by how others see you. Consider how this must look to many of them. Still, if you're the best performing salesman then you must have some ammunition at your disposal for a free pass 🙂

As others have said get a letter from your doctor.

This is the obvious part, and certainly good advice.

However, I go back to my earlier point about perception. The letter from the doctor needs to dispel any possibility of the employer [i]thinking[/i] "will fly for fun, won't fly for work". Sadly, Kryters, you've painted yourself in to a corner a little by flying. I can't blame you for doing so, especially given family etc, but getting rid of that perception isn't going to be easy, even if the perception is misguided.

Fair point ScotRoutes.

you are impacted by how others see you

Just to say this is much less of an issue now.

CFH i dont disagree, which is why i should go for others to observe just how bad it is and realise its not just an excuse.

IMO everything you are doing to try and get rid and control your fear is just feeding it. Such as getting caught up in worrying about it, talking about it, trying to medicate it, CBT'ing it. The fear relies on you paying attention to, through being scared of it, it to maintain it.

As the fear is stored subconsciously, due to a past event, you don't have immediate conscious control over it.

However, the best way to indirectly get rid of it is to allow it and get on as if nothing is wrong. So you get on flights (maybe short haul ones first), feel the fear as you will experience it, don't pay too much attention to it and repeat with subsequent flights. Slowly the fear will come down and eventually the fear part of the brain will get the message that planes are not to be scared of, and it will not activate the flight or fight response when you take planes in the future.

It isn't easy but it works for other fears as well. Look up desensitization if you like.

Just to say this is much less of an issue now.

This is a good thing.

Ditch the flying, both for business and pleasure.

Kryton57 - Member
you are impacted by how others see you
Just to say this is much less of an issue now.

Good stuff, it's a tricky road I'll give you that.

It is quite liberating once you realise nobody really cares much about other people... they are too self aware and caught up in their own dilemma.