[Closed] Moral medical / work dilemma

A work colleague goes to Spain for his hols, he hates flying so they drive and use the ferry from UK -> Spain. Couldn't you do the same ?

Its a bit more tricky to get to Menorca and Barbados by car. But in principle yes, with the exception that my issue also includes driving over high things with drops aka bridges and mountain passes type stuff.

Shakey ground if you are flying for holiday.

While in principal I agree with your boss.

What business is it of his where you go on holiday ?

Allthegear - Thats why i agree to this years failed trip. I agreed to try it, the outcome was not deliberate and I was straight to the docs for post examination hence prescribed the propranol for 4 days - and then used as needed - and referred to counselling.

Trail rat - do you? Would you enforce an non-international employee onto a plane under those circumstances with my history?

Your manager is being an arse. Get a letter from your doctor with what you've posted here and send it to him cc'ing HR. It is not acceptable to have to medicate for a work trip.

Your manager owes you a public apology.

There's clearly a difference between flying to a shitty work conference with colleagues you, at best, hate, and going abroad for a relaxing holiday with your loving family by your side.

As people mentioned when you first posted this, if you are flying for pleasure you really should also be flying for buisiness.
Can you not just do it more so it becomes normalised?

Not again Shirley????

Get on the plane for work if you e been asked to go. If you can go on holiday by plane, you can go to work on a plane.

Stop taking the drugs, they fuel the anxiety defence systems you are building up.
Plenty of advice on the other thread you created on the same subject..
Jeeze..

Theres also the genuine stress that actually [b]ive no desire to do this, wheras i have a desire for holidays[/b].

Be careful how you discuss the issue with your boss and the words you use, because the above would make me less than sympathetic to your case.

If your contract does not say you can be sent abroad then I don't see a problem.

Your manager is being an arse.

He also could be reading this. 😀 Like I said, I understood it to be a flippant comment a jovial setting, but the purpose of this post is to prepare myself in advance for a more formal conversation that either offers me the opportunity to travel with my blessing, or no pressure on me to do so on the basis that my company has a full, factual and honest explanation as to why that might be.

Get on the plane for work if you e been asked to go. If you can go on holiday by plane, you can go to work on a plane.

Its been said more than more once already - read my OP. A professional psychlogical opinion explains why that might not be the case.

Trust me, ive tried to get over this since 2003, this isnt a recent / lack of effort issue on my part.

I am 50/50 on this one. Can see both view points.

Don't agree with your boss but it does seem like card is being marked, will the process you use to get on a plane, long haul to Barbados not work for US as well? Maybe you need a chat with your boss before the situation comes up to clear the air. I hope you're not driving a hire car when you land in Spain, diazepam has a low legal threshold for driving in U.K. Iirc. Good luck with boss

I've a degree of sympathy and agree that while you may be willing to medicate for a fortnight's holiday with your loved ones you shouldn't have to do it for work.

On the other hand neither do you need to be going to Menorca or Barbados, yet you choose to in spite of all the difficulty, need for medication and upset. Other holiday destinations are available.

I'd say you have a clear medical reason not to go on the plane. What else you do as regards vacations etc is irrelevant - your boss is not a doctor and has no place second guessing medical advice.

Having said that, your boss then has a clear reason not to consider you for promotion or a bonus or whatever.

If you're taking that combination of medication to get on a plane then you're quite possibly not fit to work anyway. My last 2 places wouldn't have let me near anything on that mix.

Equally I'm not sure you should be taking them for flying in general either.

Another one who can see this from both sides. It can easily look like you are making excuses to not go on a work trip while jetting off for a fun holiday is no bother, even if this is not the case.

One possible way to calm your work situation is to explain that the medication you need to get on a plane makes you so drowsy and non-functioning that any work will be of poor quality or dangerous with regards to mistakes made etc. While on holiday you still suffer from the medication's side effects but you are able to cope as your partner can drive/organise/care for you. This would also apply to the return trip with having two flights close to each other (say within 2-3 days as you mentioned feeling drowsy for 4 after a flight) exacerbating the problem.

Have you tried one of the fear of flying courses? Both EasyJet and BA have good ones.

For the next conference in Florida scope out getting there via cruise ship from Southampton.

It does sound a bit like there's no way they can make you go based on your medical history but also it could be professionally limiting if you keep passing up opportunities.

Flying for holidays will also lose good will because your boss and colleagues aren't psychologists and won't understand the difference.

A colleague and friend of mine was told he had to travel to Brest to attend a course, his manager asked whether he wanted to fly or ferry, he asked his manager if he had ever watched Airplane ? before the manager could answer he then asked if had ever watched the Poseidon Adventure !

The poor bloke just stood there dumbfounded, my mate then traveled from Leeds to Brest via the tunnel and booked overtime all the way as it was on a Sunday.

Virgin and BA, yes. Its actually a fear of falling I have.

so drowsy and non-functioning that any work will be of poor quality or dangerous

Id be landing on Saturday, sitting in presentations Monday.

Equally I'm not sure you should be taking them for flying in general either.

My Doctors thoughts exactly. Although ive taken Diazepam and Tamazepam together before, he wants that to stop. The Propranolol replaces the Tamazepam.

Just as a side note; Im under no illusions that if my contract were changed or I was offered an international role I wouldnt accept either. Also my employer was very aware of my issues before this role was offered or accepted.

I'm not seeking justification, sympathy or validation here, just communication / contractual advice.

Tell him you're trying to fly for holiday partly in an attempt to come up with a better medication strategy in order to be able to fly for work, but you don't know if it's going to work for you, and his support is, as always, greatly appreciated!

Plus a couple of hours to Spain does not equal a longer haul flight to Florida.

Have you considered studying aerodynamics? I'm not being flippant - I also have issues on high bridges, alpine roads, tall structures and even mountain tops (though not as serious as yours). However, a good understanding of aircraft design and construction seems to have made me completely comfortable when flying.

As for your current situation, if your role includes a fair expectation that annual conferences and the like are expected then your boss has a point. If it was me, I'd knock the family holidays on the head until I'd resolved it. There are lots of other places you could go on holiday without subjecting yourself to that level of distress, but then only you can judge the balance between what you get out of your holiday and what it takes to get there and back.

I flew a lot for work. I once had a panic attack, fortunately it was on a hop to Aberdeen and I could bottle it up, and it was never repeated. You have my sympathy.

you work for a global company, I doubt the pressure to travel to international events isn't going to go away anytime soon despite your contract not explicitly stating it.

I know it won't make a rational jot of difference, but you've talked about doing a reasonable amount of driving mileage for work. There is way more risk there than flying...

Personally I'd change jobs.

Is there anything in your contract about "travel may be required..."?

Whilst your boss may not be able to do anything legally, I'd say you're limiting your "promotion" prospects...I.e. Your future with the company. If I was your boss, I'd understand if you told me you could only cope with couple of hours flying to Spain, but I'd be far less sympathetic if you then said "oh but I can go to Barbados for my hols"

Find another job where you don't have to fly. Or at least restrict family holidays to short haul. Whatever the technicalities, if you can fly long haul for pleasure it looks as though you should be able to for work.

Edit - what 2dogs said

Whatever the technicalities, if you can fly long haul for pleasure it [b]looks as though [/b]you should be able to for work.

Sadly, this is it. The biggest problem here is one of perception for your employer. That perception is that you [b]can[/b] and [b]do[/b] fly for fun, but you [b]can't[/b] and [b]won't[/b] for work.

So, you either need to find a way to totally dispel that perception, or sadly, suck it up and fly.

Jesus some people really are slaves to their jobs.

This sounds really simple; one you want to do, the other you don't.

Unfortunately, we don't always get to choose what we do at work and your reason for not doing so is diluted by the holiday flight precedent you've set.

Ultimately 'they' can't make you do anything but they can retaliate when the goodies are being handed out.

Sadly, this is it. The biggest problem here is one of perception for your employer. That perception is that you can and do fly for fun, but you can't and won't for work.

So, you either need to find a way to totally dispel that perception, or sadly, suck it up and fly.

Before this thread - and perhaps after - this is where i am. Sitting bravely but visibly trembling with your wife is somewhat different to doing so in front of your work colleagues nevertheless.

Next weeks flight will be the first with propranolol, so ill see if that helps.

Genuine question - why don't you just go somewhere warm that you can drive to for your family hols?

I'm damn sure I would in your position.

@chakaping

Because he's prepared to put up with the aggro for jollies but not for work i.e. the root of the problem.

@kryton If it embarrassment you're suffering from, go on a different flight or do they charter the whole shebang?

my mate then traveled from Leeds to Brest via the tunnel

There's a disaster movie about a tunnel under the sea that collapses. Cannot remember what it's called.

I'm not helping very much am I?

Ill just add but i dont know if this has a bearing; this first time this happend was in 2001, when a former employer forced me into a position to go to NZ threatening me with the sack, resulting in my first ever blackout at Heathrow. I was also then suffering re-mortgage and relationship issues and spent 6 months on AD's.

It could be the physcological "work" link coming from that.

I thought most contracts had a 'we can ask you to work wherever we want' type clause.

And if the company is going to loose money by you not travelling it sounds reasonable that you should be expected to fly as part of your role.

Contract aside you are loosing the company money (as you have stayed) by not going, therefore I think your chances of staying in the company are limited unless you can still fly

Kryton57 - Member
Ill just add but i dont know if this has a bearing; this first time this happend was in 2001, when a former employer forced me into a position to go to NZ threatening me with the sack, resulting in my first ever blackout at Heathrow. I was also then suffering re-mortgage and relationship issues and spent 6 months on AD's.

There's your problem, you are probably physically bringing that situation up each time you fly...

[quote=FunkyDunc ]I thought most contracts had a 'we can ask you to work wherever we want' type clause.

Possibly not, but if there was a "reasonable expectation" that flying abroad might be required when taking on the job then that could be important in any contractual/disciplinary discussions. The OP did say that this problem was mentioned when taking on the role so must have known it was possible. OTOH the employer also knew there might be an issue and this is where the "OK for holidays" "not for work" disconnect is. TBH, if all other avenues had been explored then I'd be looking for another job because wh'd want the stress of possible legal action if/when your employer decides they want you out.

Life is too short to worry about things like this. Be up front with your boss and tell them you are not going in January, full stop. You can stop worrying about it then. I understand that you make a sacrifice at great expense to your health so your family can have a nice holiday. You are under no obligation to go through it twice in a year to please your boss. Why should you care as much about work as your family? If you have not discussed this with your family, I would seriously consider not flying for your holidays though, since it causes you so many problems. Why not drive and ferry, or catch a train to the south of France? There are lots of sunny places you don't need to fly to get to!

If it is a long-haul for work once a year, then I would medicate for it - on certain anti-anxiety medications, with enough dosage, you simply wouldn't be able to have a panic attack.
If work demands you fly more than that, then I'd say upfront, I can't do that, and see what they say, or leave the job.
The manager's comments were snide and suggests he/she is a bell-end.
In terms of the panic attacks, I think it's likely you are not afraid of flying but that you suffered a big panic attack in an airport and now your nervous system associates it with danger/fear. Perhaps you could work on that angle with the therapist.

You should get the Audi.

I absolutely get where the OP is coming from. I fly on holiday, but i wont fly for work

My rational, I'm not going to risk crashing in a ball of flames for my employer, but for a week in the alps i'm prepared to take my chances

You need some CBT. You have a phobia linked to a specific event, it can be fixed.

What, precisely, is it that bother syou about flying? I know you said falling, but this isn't common for phobias about flight.

You need some CBT. You have a phobia linked to a specific event, it can be fixed.

He tried that apparently.

I can understand a crippling phobia that prevents him from doing something like flying but I have a really hard time thinking of something that I like so much (Barbados, whatever) that I'll endure the nasty stuff for, if it is as nasty as described. If his boss is as non-perceptive as me it's clear it will have a negative career impact.

DrJ - your point is appropriate. But, its not rational and there lies the problem.

Or, just tell your boss you're driving on holiday. It's the apparent rubbing his/your employers nose in it that's the issue.

Or, just tell your boss you're driving on holiday

Must admit, if I had a phobia relating to flying there's NO WAY (barring total one-offs like funeral of someone really close to me) I'd be on a plane in my leisure time. I definitely wouldn't ruin my holidays by taking meds that affect me for 4 days out and 4 days back again

THAT is the shit you don't want in your life - drop that hassle/anxiety and your working problem disappears. 2 birds with one stone

What rsmythe said. Tenfold. Life is much better since I stopped giving even half a toss about work.

first time this happend was in 2001, when a former employer forced me into a position to go to NZ threatening me with the sack, resulting in my first ever blackout at Heathrow

... or were you already anxious about flying prior to that?

It is entirely reasonable that specific context would be a trigger whereas other contexts would not. Your boss need to be reminded that mental health issues are also HEALTH issues. I would be doing so in writing, copying OH

OP - I hope you don't mind me linking to your previous thread. It might provide more background.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-real-fear-of-flying

I hope you're not driving a hire car when you land in Spain, diazepam has a low legal threshold for driving in U.K. Iirc.

My own perspective on the (very slight) risks when flying is that I cannot control what happens, and so worrying about what might happen is a waste of mental and nervous energy. Obviously that is a rational perspective, and just because I think that way does not make me right or clever - it's simply the way I am (and a bad flying experience might completely change my attitude).

I raise the issue of being 'in control' or able to influence the situation, because I know that some people cannot stand being driven in a car, but are quite happy when they are the driver.

Obviously BA are not going to let you sit in the co-pilot's seat. However, I wonder if for someone for whom the usual course offered by BA etc. has not been successful where the course is focused on the passive experience as a passenger (and so not in control), whether the opposite approach might work. In other words, would someone with an extreme reaction to sitting in a passenger seat be better able to cope and overcome those feelings and fears, if they had even a little experience of flying a plane?

I am not necessarily suggesting this for Kryton57, but I imagine that it would be possible to spend quite a bit of time in a flight simulator learning the basics, before going up with an instructor in a training aircraft, and the experience of being in control and flying the aircraft might make it easier to adjust to being a passenger in a jet.

If you told our Occupational Health what you took to get yourself on a plane, there isn't a chance in hell you would ever travel by plane on business.

The anxiety probably puts you within the protection of the Equality Act (and your manager on dodgy ground) but you can understand if the simple version he sees is "won't fly for work, but is happy to jet off on holiday." A letter from your doctor to the manager, OH (cos it's medical) and HR (cos it's Equality Act stuff) should suffice.

Can you expand on this please. I always drop one or two 2 mg diazepam when I arrive at Gatwick. 5 hours later I will picking up a hire car in Majorca.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/drug-drive-legislation-am-i-fit-to-drive

It is a defence if your driving is not impaired (the target is abusers, not those with prescriptions). Anecdotally, a typical prescription should see you just under the limit but tolerant people may well be given more and be over.

Can you expand on this please. I always drop one or two 2 mg diazepam when I arrive at Gatwick. 5 hours later I will picking up a hire car in Majorca.
Am I on dodgy ground here?

(and if you also had dectectable alcohol levels I'd be among those baying for you to be banned & possibly jailed)

Kryton- what are you expected to [i]do[/i] on this work trip? Is there a chance that it's what happens at the far end that causes your anxiety too? Maybe you don't like mingling with strangers or you have to stand up and give a talk of some sort. Could it be you're uncomfortable being there with your peers and maybe in being measured up against them?

scaredypants - Member
Or, just tell your boss you're driving on holiday
to Barbados ?

With disinformation, less is definitely more... 😉

hmmmm

for some, I suspect going to Barbados and not telling anyone about it may be worse than the flight

There lies the problem. Gobbing off about going to the Caribbean one minute, refusing to fly for work the next...

That may seem a little unfair but it's probably the impression given.

to be clear - at that point you had no prior anxiety about flying at all and it was just the being forced to travel (plus your personal stresses) that caused this
... or were you already anxious about flying prior to that?

Yes, i was getting inceasingly more nervous of tubulence having experienced some frequent nerve racking experiences back and forth to Shetland/Western Isles over 3 years

Its the turbulence / anticipation thereof that scares me. Yes, ive read all the de bunking.

Gobbing off

Not the case, we go once every 4 years or so to see family there. Its not boast.

Kryton- what are you expected to do on this work trip? Is there a chance that it's what happens at the far end that causes your anxiety too? Maybe you don't like mingling with strangers or you have to stand up and give a talk of some sort. Could it be you're uncomfortable being there with your peers and maybe in being measured up against them?

No. Its a Sales kickoff. We listen to the execs telling us the good/bad of the previous year, this years focus, recieve awards if appropriate and get pissed in the evenings. Not really pressure or a hardship. I should say i went to a similar event in Frankfurt, but took the train.

It's not remotely unfair if travel is not part of the job. There must be plenty of people with eg caring responsibilities who cannot go off travelling at request of job, even if they can do it for holidays. Either the OP has an obligation to travel in which case he needs to either suck it up or change contract/job or he doesn't, and in neither case are his holiday plans any of the company's bloody business.

I'd be on the Eurostar to the south of France if I was scared of flying.

My opinion is the same as those above, its up to you what you do on your hols.

But if I was your boss I'd think you were taking the piss. Your scared to fly but you choose to do it in your free time!

Maybe next Florida business trip could be tied in with a Florida holiday?

Just to confirm in simple terms.

Won't fly for work as scared
Will fly on holiday as not VERY scared
Boss questions this
You feel hard done by

Imagine you asked your boss for Monday off to kick puppies. He says no as it's gonna be a busy day. Then you discover he's given both himself and your colleague the day off, AFTER you asked, so they can kick puppies together. He's being selfish, it's impacting on the business and is unreasonable.

That's what you're doing.

There are very few occasions where MTFU is appropriate, but this is one. Pull yourself together, you great sausage.

It's not remotely unfair if travel is not part of the job.

Do people have contracts that explicitly state that travel is or isn't part of their job? Just asking as I have no idea. I don't think it's mentioned in my contract - I just assume that from time to time I get asked to go somewhere that may be convenient or pleasant or the opposite, and I go.

Yes and long hours if required.

Kryton have open and honest conversation with boss. You have a phobia about flying. If you cannot overcome it, don't fly. Simple. Avoid the drugs solution - and frankly docs who recommend it - sort the issue out don't mask it with drugs - too many colleges have gone down that crap route IME.

Be honest, be open, be true to yourself. No way I would expect an employee to fly under such circumstances.

(FWIW as a frequent flyer, I find long hails much much more relaxing that shirt haul, but accept the "long" bit might be issue for you 😉 )

I've always had to work hours and location as required. In practice lots of flexibility but occasionally insisted on such that consistent refusal would have been disciplinary/job-losing.

I've always had to work hours and location as required. In practice lots of flexibility but occasionally insisted on such that consistent refusal would have been disciplinary/job-losing.

I've always had to work hours and location as required. In practice lots of flexibility but occasionally insisted on such that consistent refusal would have been disciplinary/job-losing.

Won't fly for work as scared

Anxiety /= scared

Did you miss the bit about panic attacks and blackouts?

I'm torn on this one.

There's the very logical and unemotional side that says flying for work in more stressful than flying for pleasure and they're not really the same thing.

But then there's the other side that says "okay, flying is crap for this guy, but he CAN do it when he wants to".

The think if you go down the HR route you’ll be fine, but it won’t be penalty free. When it comes to managers, they know, because that's how you become a manager how to "play the game" I know some who'd publicly say "we understand flying is an issue for you, we'll only assign you jobs in the UK" whilst at the same time putting you right at the top of their shit-list forever more, especially after the failed attempt.

Personally, I wouldn't tell anyone from work my holiday plans, you leave, you come back - who's to say if you went to Barbados or Bognor, or a tunnel to France. Publiclly saying you cannot fly for work, whilst admitting you can fly for pleasure not only alienates you from your boss, but from your colleagues who have to trek across the world for work when you get to stay at home with your family.

If Social Media or work/social over-lap makes that impossible, then another tactic would be to agree to go and “do my very best, I have a plan, got the right drugs etc” this makes it your Managers gamble, not yours, it’s up to them then to decide whether they want to be the one who screwed up with this guy twice.

Anxiety /= scared

Did you miss the bit about panic attacks and blackouts?

Nope, was cutting to the chase, your selective quote undermines your argument. Want the day off to kick some puppies too?

Im with your boss. Take a big old slice of mtfu.

Im with your boss. Take a big old slice of mtfu.

Anxiety doesn't mix well with MTFU, it causes panic attacks which leads to fight or flight responses - blacking out is bad, trying to punch your way out of Heathrow is worse.

Take a big old slice of mtfu.

Its funny how that phrase is utterly condemed in the many depression threads on here, but has been used or implied liberally in this one. This isnt a choice, its an irrational mental and physical reaction which effects me outside of this subject also.

Ive been a manager - several times - and I'm of the nature to apply empathy to this situation. I joined a small UK only operation which was then aquired by an American corporate. Therefore the international travel didnt feature but was created not of my choosing.

Anyway, thanks for the input. Im well aware that it may be career limiting or ending Im happy to make that choice. But applying my own management style to the situation i wouldnt "strongly convince" an employee with my issues or record - part of which attempted resolution is through the companys own medical referral - to perform such an uncomfortable action. If they were valuable to me I'd seek a common ground where their localised value helped me and they could allow other employees to take international opportunity. In fact despite my lack of 2017 attendance I am currently Europes best performing salesman by quota, so it wasnt too detrimental.

On the basis of is thread then nothing has changed. Still very few people seem to understand what this means, or the mental diffrentation from holiday to work, but it has helped me see the outside perspective. I feel i only have one course of action - that is to take the US trip and let my colleagues see how I'm affected and perhaps let them realise the outcome. In fact this reminds me i did this for a trip to Dublin, and my colleagues then commented on the "nightmare" i was going through - they were different colleagues so may I could refer to them to my current manager.

Same 'ol then. I shall pop the pills and look forward to some Spanish beer and Sunshine next week knowing thats the carrot at then end of a rather challenging stick and accept its my lot in life.

Not sure how that choice helps anyone least of all you. But your choice so good luck

(Try to stay off the meds on flights)

Thm - its clear people dont believe / understand the seriousness of what i go through. No choice but to either show them, convince work for a free pass, or resign.

Some proper awful folk offering advice on this thread who should of really just pressed the back button and kept their "advice" to themselves.

Kryton, your comment about mtfu and other threads is entirely justified. I'm with you on that.

I've no advice on your situation but I feel your pain.

All the best 🙂