[Closed] Minimum Alchohol cost / Nanny state

Just brew your own. 40p a pint. 🙂

They cannot ban beer. It's too easy to make it yourself

If the numbers are the same as last time they talked about it, it will make no difference at all to the. Vast majority of people.

So is the goverment doing its best to ensure we can't enjoy ourselves,

What do you drink that costs 45p per unit?

Cheep crap booze is drunk by people who just want to get pissed, I see no problem with removing that "sales segment" from stores.

Can't see it making a lot of difference, it's all gesture politics. Most branded alcohol is already above what they're suggesting, even in the supermarkets. It's a non starter when drinking out, £ 4.50 for a bottle of Heineken on Saturday night! Those that have a problem will find the money anyway. For it to actually work the price increase would have to be ridiculous and they haven't got the balls to do that, nor would it be appropriate. As far as I'm aware moderate (i.e. well within the guidelines) has little affect on health, unlike say moderate smoking.

Unless you drink lambrini or special brew it's hardly likely to affect you significanly is it?

Worst case scenario it pushes prices up accross the board like the minimum wage did for everyones earnings, if carling is £1/can then stella will have to be £1.50, it ftella is £1.50 then Leffe will have to be £2 just to get that preception of being better, just like wages rose as skilled workers earning just above the minimum wanted differentiating from the cleaners, etc.

Best case carling, carlsberg, tetleys, boddingtons, alcopops and yates wine lodge dissapear and the market if overun with microbreweries who can suddenly compete with the crap stuff on price, leading to more competition and better drinks for everyone.

What do you drink that costs 45p per unit?

I've come to the conclusion that British people and alcohol are like Americans and guns. Nearly everyone else has booze but few nations treat it the way British people do. Booze is CHEAP in Luxembourg but there's nowhere near the level of public drunkenness and disorder.

Cost is not the problem in the UK, it's people and bringing in minimum costs on booze won't change that but like people say, it's gesture politics designed to show you're doing something by doing nothing useful (see also, airport security).

What I asking / predicting is - that this is just the start perhaps of something that limits the way we consume alchohol - controlled by the state on the premise of "health"

Live and let er, die imo

Its only going to effect two segments of society really

1....

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2....

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But It boils my piss listening to MP's (fresh from their subsidised bar) announcing, as on the Today programme this morning, that 'people need to be paying for the consequences of their unhealthy choices" Eh? So we don't already? I pay £7 for a packet of 20 fags. 90% of which is tax? In what way am I not paying for my choices?

It's not the booze at all.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15265317 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15265317[/url]

I guess you have to ask whether the country should support people who drink to the level where they damage their health despite knowing better. The answer may well be no, but it's clear that putting the price up won't change anything so it's a daft idea.

The problem is dying costs money, the state spends £100k+ getting a kid through their GCSE's. They need people living and working to pay for the next genertion, not costing even more as they die in hospitals.

klumpy - Had an issue recently with a member of staff who did some really quite bad things on a company paid trip. My argument is that the stuff he did he has in him anyway and that we shouldn't just say "Oh, he had a few drinks" as an excuse. Interesting to see it's an accepted viewpoint.

thisisnotaspoon - but will putting a minimum price on booze change things? Heroin seems quite pricy but people still take that

Surely, given the present pension and housing situation, a few more of us carking it early, rather than hanging around smelling of wee and watching Cash in the Attic, would be doing society a favour?

Let's look at some figures, using the proposed 45p / unit price.

500ml can of regular strength beer (4%) - 2 units - 90p
500ml can of strong beer (6%) - 3 units - £1.35
330ml bottle of WKD (4.5%) - 1.48 units - 67p
2l bottle of tramp juice cider (7.5%) - 15 units - £6.75
70cl bottle of wine (13%) - 9 units - £4.05
70cl bottle of spirits (40%) - 28 units - £12.60

Conclusion; the people most affected by this will be the people buying cheap 'value' falling-down juice. Those buying higher quality drinks (real ale, branded spirits, pretty much any wine) won't be affected.

Interestingly, the 'binge drinking' Stella / alcopop demographic should be largely unaffected too. They're already massively overpaying for their tipple of choice.

Interestingly, the 'binge drinking' Stella / alcopop demographic should be largely unaffected too.

Have you watched the (frankly terrifying) 999 Emergency series on Blackpool, thats just finished on Channel 4? Apparently a large problem is the standing up/falling over drinking establishments selling acid-coloured 'shots' ridiculously cheap. I think it'd impact on that

Back of the envelope suggests it doesn't even impact on the '3 cases of beer for £20' offers you get at Tescos, so at best it will make a marginal impact on a very small group of people.

For comparison, bar measures.

pint of regular strength beer - 2.27 units - £1.02
pint of strong beer - 3.4 units - £1.53
330ml bottle of WKD - 1.48 units - £1.48
pint of stong cider 4.26 units - £1.92
125ml glass of wine - 1.6 units - 73p
175ml glass of wine - 2.28 units - £1.02
250ml glass of wine - 3.25 units - £1.46
25ml shot - 1 unit - 45p

Interesting reading when you consider actual bar prices.

It will fire up the black market in imported booze again.

Nanny State

Unfortunately there's an awful lot of people who really do need nannying.

Nobody needs nannying. Its buggering up Darwinist Natural Selection. Evolution should be allowed to run its course, without interference

Gather round children, it's Stoner's Graph Time!

First looked at this when the Scot's parliament first mooted 50p/unit minimum in spring 2009. Have updated it with Asda prices today.

[img] [/img]

Why should the innocent drinkers pay what is effect a collective fine punishment to cover the misdeeds of the guilty?

...Back of the envelope suggests it doesn't even impact on the '3 cases of beer for £20' offers you get at Tescos, so at best it will make a marginal impact on a very small group of people...

i guess that's the idea, introduce it at a level so low no-one will notice.

Does anyone here actually drink the cheap cider and high-strength lager that's likely to be affected by this?

yes, kids.

someone should explain to kids the poor economic choice that is drinking buckie or alcopops 🙂

They really ought to be laying into the 3 litre boxes of Asda Perry.... *barf*

yes, kids.

I said anyone [b]here[/b].

Or have I come on Pinkbike by mistake?

I find it baffling that a bunch of middle-aged, mostly middle class cyclists are getting all faux-Clarkson outraged over a policy designed explicitly to save lives.

Kryton57 - Member
Sounds similar to the prior issues with cigarettes to me, so how long will it be before we can only drink in our houses, or booze is banned altogether - 10 years?

Dammit, someone owes me a tenner.

Had this exact same conversation 10 years ago. And Lo and Behold, you can still go out and get drunk.

Must dig that guys phone number out, bets a bet

There is a massive bit of research out there which asked underage drinkers why they drank. They said that they do it because it's cheaper than the other leisure options they have. That is who this minimum price for alcohol is aimed at - because they asked for it.

The last time I drank alcohol that would be affected by this was when I was an underage binge drinker.

After that, wouldn't notice a thing.

When were cigarettes banned all together or are they not and only allowed in your house?

Or is this just a normal over the top reaction, hence 'nanny state' comment.

Seeing as I can't see the wholsesalers/resellers swallowing the cost, all booze prices will rise slightly to accomodate.

So where is the money going - manufacturers pockets, supermarket profit or tax to the goverment?

If its the latter is basically becomes a stealth/additional tax for those of use that might continue to buy (decent) booze, as well as a deterent to the acid-shot drinking kids. IE, paying an extra 42p for a bottle of fine rum might not be an issue for me - but hold on, I've paid extra tax to the goverment to support next doors alchy kid getting his stomach pumped?

[quote=Kryton57 ]Seeing as I can't see the wholsesalers/resellers swallowing the cost, all booze prices will rise slightly to accomodate.
I'm not understanding your point. What cost would the wholesalers/retailers have to swallow?

So where is the money going - manufacturers pockets, supermarket profit or tax to the goverment?

I liked how you typed that as if it's some sort of secret conspiracy. Where on earth do you think the money would go?

'stealth tax' 'nanny state' oooh just need 'it's an outrage' 'think of the kids' and I have a full house.

I've come to the conclusion that British people and alcohol are like Americans and guns. Nearly everyone else has booze but few nations treat it the way British people do

Very good point- never thought of it like that but you are correct. Its not the use per se its how we use it. For example if everyone went down the pub with their folks to family pubs and drunk just as much on a firday/saturday night they would behave considerably differently.

I am not sure what they are doing tbh. Unless they raise it substantially it will make no difference
FWIW I work next door to a Witherspoons and it is always full when I get intot the office and when i leave

I suspect this will make little to no difference

What wee are after is a cultural shift in the use of alcohoil within our society
I see it as beeing unlikely to work and "education" programmes would be even more controversial

Rather see a tax on unhealthy food tbh and even that ois abiot knee jerk.

Nanny state? You expect the state to look after you when you're ill, why is it not right for the state to try and prevent people messing themselves up? Prevention not better than cure?

The extortionate tax on alcohol has already paid for the healthcare.

Anyone intently staring at there own navel regarding us Brits drinking habits should go for a night out in Finland.

Couple of Russian friends of mine also have described situations which make us look like a bunch of Genteel namby pambies in comparison.

The extortionate tax on alcohol has already paid for the healthcare.

Really? I think not.

Nanny state? You expect the state to look after you when you're ill, why is it not right for the state to try and prevent people messing themselves up? Prevention not better than cure?

Eh? A life support after they've reduced my house / savings value to zero, despite a lifetime of tax / NI? Not much to look forward to, if I get taxed and contrinute to other peoples health, is it? Leave the money with me to provide myself a better post-retirement lifestyle maybe?

Piemonster/DruidH - I don't understand the minimum per unit cost is made up of - is that just a legal "level" that shops have to adhere to in the sale of the product, or has tax been applied to make it so?

Couple of Russian friends of mine also have described situations which make us look like a bunch of Genteel namby pambies in comparison.

The evening of the day the Trawlers returned in Stornoway was any eye opener....

...I don't understand the minimum per unit cost is made up of - is that just a legal "level" that shops have to adhere to in the sale of the product

yes

...or has tax been applied to make it so?

no.

[quote=Kryton57 ]
Piemonster/DruidH - I don't understand the minimum per unit cost is made up of - is that just a legal "level" that shops have to adhere to in the sale of the product, or has tax been applied to make it so?
That would be a minimum price it can be sold at. The only added tax would be the VAT element of the difference. So, if the price went from £4 to £5, the govt. would get [i]another[/i] 20p from that.

Kryton; full government report available here: http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05021

A life support after they've reduced my house / savings value to zero, despite a lifetime of tax / NI? Not much to look forward to, if I get taxed and contrinute to other peoples health, is it? Leave the money with me to provide myself a better post-retirement lifestyle maybe?

Just like America, they have such a fantastic welfare and health system, really its the envy of the world 😆

Of course this is just paying lip service to the problem, but it could be part of a strategy to change the culture. I would also like to see rules reducing the maximum allowed "crowding" of pubs and bars, and maybe lower noise levels.

And some more from the Home Office here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/alcohol-drugs/alcohol/alcohol-strategy?view=Binary

[i]I liked how you typed that as if it's some sort of secret conspiracy. Where on earth do you think the money would go? [/i]

Ok, I'll bite - where do you KNOW its going?

'cos all I can see is an increase in profit for the retailer - or do you know different?

Ok, I'll bite - where do you KNOW its going?

'cos all I can see is an increase in profit for the retailer - or do you know different?

Well think of it like this, if there was a minimum price put on mountainbikes of 1000, would that mean that 60 pound bikes would now cost a grand. or that 1000 pound bikes became the minimum standard?

While there may be some upward pressure on prices around the lower limit, the beer market is pretty competitive and it is most likely that the cheapest crappest products are just removed from the market.

[quote=b r ]
'cos all I can see is an increase in profit for the retailer - or do you know different?

"The Department of Health estimated in July 2008 that alcohol misuse costs the health service in the order of £2.7 billion per year. Such misuse also imposes wider costs on society, such as crime and disorder, social and family breakdown and sickness absence. The total annual cost of alcohol misuse to the UK economy has been calculated by the Cabinet Office at up to £25.1 billion."

Tax raised from alcohol is approx £9bn/year.

Ah ha - see so there [i]is[/i] an element of stealth taxation - a force priced increase, 20% of which goes to the government...

Yep - it's so stealthy that no one actually knows about it.

Apart from me, obviously. 🙄

Ah ha - see so there is an element of stealth taxation - a force priced increase, 20% of which goes to the government..

Tax raised from alcohol is approx £9bn/year.

Does anyone know what the tax raised by the allegedly targeted drinkers is.

b.r. sorry, actually had to do some "work" for a minute

stealth taxation

It's not stealth taxation, just general everyday Tax.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "Stealth Tax"?

Who do you think the targeted drinkers are?

I'd say, the young, middle aged women and the upper class.

"kryton75"-If its the latter is basically becomes a stealth/additional tax for those of use that might continue to buy (decent) booze, as well as a deterent to the acid-shot drinking kids. IE, paying an extra 42p for a bottle of fine rum might not be an issue for me - but hold on, I've paid extra tax to the goverment to support next doors alchy kid getting his stomach pumped?

I don't think fine rum will be below 45p/unit.....

Does anyone know what the tax raised by the allegedly targeted drinkers is.

Thats not / has hit on my point PM. Its allegedly targetted at those that need to be prevented from drinking, but in fact we'll ALL be paying it.

Therefore my definition of a stealth tax is a tax that we are forced to pay that is either unnoticed by some (some being those not bothered to understand it) and therefore paid iaddvertently without them noticing - becuase it doesn't appear on there payslips.

Vis a vis, I don't need helping. But I'm paying the extra's. Force the ne'er do well to may for their own care I say...

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "Stealth Tax"?

Extra taxation levied against Solid Snake.

bails - Stella could be, and although I'm cultured and 40, I still quite like Stella from time to time...

+1 PeterPoddy
I think it's even less than 40p/pint if you brew from scratch

some out-of-date numbers (2003);

The government raises £7bn through taxes on alcohol

Alcohol costs £6.4bn in lost productivity

The NHS spends £1.7bn treating alcohol-related illnesses

Alcohol-related crime costs £7.3bn

Another £4.7bn is spent on the human and emotional costs of alcohol-related crime

tax revenue = £7bn

total costs = £20.1bn

source: [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3121440.stm ]old bbc page - and government report[/url]

up-to-date numbers would be great, but i couldn't find them...

+1 PeterPoddy
I think it's even less than 40p/pint if you brew from scratch

Who do you think the targeted drinkers are?

I'd say, the young, middle aged women and the upper class.

Can't tell if this is serious.....

The price ranges affected by this have already been shown. If you buy a normal bottle of branded spirits from the supermarket, you probably won't be paying below 45p/unit. If you buy drinks at a pub/bar/club, you probably won't be paying more than 45p/unit (when was the last time you bought a measure of a spirit for less than 45p, or a pint of beer/cider for less than 90p?!). The target is the people drinking Kestrel on the park bench all day!

[quote=Kryton57 ]
Thats not / has hit on my point PM. Its allegedly targetted at those that need to be prevented from drinking, but in fact we'll ALL be paying it.Genuinely sorry, but I'm still not understanding your point. How will I be paying additional tax if I don't currently buy any alcohol below the minimum price?

The only "stealth" tax in pay here is how much I pay to keep the NHS provisioned to deal with alcohol abuse. 😆

Druidh;

Apologies, I've misunderstood this completely - bails post before your's has clarifed the issue. I though "extra" was being added on to everything, where actually it isn't any extra if its already over the minimum per unit costs.

Doh.... 😳

Can I blame the fact we had a rough night with the baby and am tired?

If it's colic then I can forgive anything

Kryton: I don't think £1.08 is an unreasonable price for a large can of stella, that's no less than what I would expect to pay. A fiver for 4 large cans feels about right in my head. (I've just realised I haven't bought any beer for ages, so I might be miles out.)

I also agree with druidh, I don't understand what your point is, if you're not buying cheap, meths laced, Lithuanian vodka then you probably haven't got much to worry about. And it's not a stealth tax, it's VAT. Don't they show the amount of VAT on the receipt? Not very stealthy.

Edit: Just seen your post saying you've misunderstood the mechanism. Fair enough 🙂

It's worth noting that, say, for wine of 13%, with duty of £1.90 and VAT @ 20%, that per unit of alcohol you are already paying about 25p in tax and for spirits (37.5%) about 32p.

The baby defence.

Can we add that to the list?

So, if there is a minimum cost that is *not* tax then presumably that will increase the profits of the producers / suppliers?

Or they'll find that nobody buys the cheap stuff anymore.

yes.

how it's distributed will be interesting. But I understand that wholesale margins are ridiculously tight - like just 10-25p on 6x bottles of crap plonk (echo falls, £20 for 6ish)

there was a good article on moneybox the other day. will track down the transcript...

Actually was file on four
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n65zg

MAN:This is the Echo Falls red, which is one of the ones
that’s been talked about.
URRY: In these boxes here?
MAN: Yes.
URRY: How much are you selling a box of six for?
MAN: Well, the standard shelf price on an Echo Falls red is
£21.99. As it happens, on that particular line, we’re on promotion at the moment, so we’re
selling for £19.79 plus VAT for six bottles.

We fight so competitively over price. On wine
or beer, 10p is a big differential. Pounds a case is unheard of

NEWS.BBC.CO.UK "http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/09_10_12_fo4_alcoholfraud.pdf"

although I'm cultured and 40, I still quite like Stella from time to time

Oxymoron?

Nobby - Member

although I'm cultured and 40, I still quite like Stella from time to time

Oxymoron?

No thanks, my spots cleared up years ago.

Good news for dealers.