[quote=Kryton57 ]
Piemonster/DruidH - I don't understand the minimum per unit cost is made up of - is that just a legal "level" that shops have to adhere to in the sale of the product, or has tax been applied to make it so?
That would be a minimum price it can be sold at. The only added tax would be the VAT element of the difference. So, if the price went from £4 to £5, the govt. would get [i]another[/i] 20p from that.
Kryton; full government report available here: http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN05021
A life support after they've reduced my house / savings value to zero, despite a lifetime of tax / NI? Not much to look forward to, if I get taxed and contrinute to other peoples health, is it? Leave the money with me to provide myself a better post-retirement lifestyle maybe?
Just like America, they have such a fantastic welfare and health system, really its the envy of the world 😆
Of course this is just paying lip service to the problem, but it could be part of a strategy to change the culture. I would also like to see rules reducing the maximum allowed "crowding" of pubs and bars, and maybe lower noise levels.
And some more from the Home Office here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/alcohol-drugs/alcohol/alcohol-strategy?view=Binary
[i]I liked how you typed that as if it's some sort of secret conspiracy. Where on earth do you think the money would go? [/i]
Ok, I'll bite - where do you KNOW its going?
'cos all I can see is an increase in profit for the retailer - or do you know different?
Ok, I'll bite - where do you KNOW its going?'cos all I can see is an increase in profit for the retailer - or do you know different?
Well think of it like this, if there was a minimum price put on mountainbikes of 1000, would that mean that 60 pound bikes would now cost a grand. or that 1000 pound bikes became the minimum standard?
While there may be some upward pressure on prices around the lower limit, the beer market is pretty competitive and it is most likely that the cheapest crappest products are just removed from the market.
Apart from the VAT element I outlined above?[quote=b r ]
'cos all I can see is an increase in profit for the retailer - or do you know different?
"The Department of Health estimated in July 2008 that alcohol misuse costs the health service in the order of £2.7 billion per year. Such misuse also imposes wider costs on society, such as crime and disorder, social and family breakdown and sickness absence. The total annual cost of alcohol misuse to the UK economy has been calculated by the Cabinet Office at up to £25.1 billion."
Tax raised from alcohol is approx £9bn/year.
Ah ha - see so there [i]is[/i] an element of stealth taxation - a force priced increase, 20% of which goes to the government...
Yep - it's so stealthy that no one actually knows about it.
Apart from me, obviously. 🙄
Ah ha - see so there is an element of stealth taxation - a force priced increase, 20% of which goes to the government..
Tax raised from alcohol is approx £9bn/year.
Does anyone know what the tax raised by the allegedly targeted drinkers is.
b.r. sorry, actually had to do some "work" for a minute
stealth taxation
It's not stealth taxation, just general everyday Tax.
Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "Stealth Tax"?
Who do you think the targeted drinkers are?
I'd say, the young, middle aged women and the upper class.
"kryton75"-If its the latter is basically becomes a stealth/additional tax for those of use that might continue to buy (decent) booze, as well as a deterent to the acid-shot drinking kids. IE, paying an extra 42p for a bottle of fine rum might not be an issue for me - but hold on, I've paid extra tax to the goverment to support next doors alchy kid getting his stomach pumped?
I don't think fine rum will be below 45p/unit.....
Does anyone know what the tax raised by the allegedly targeted drinkers is.
Thats not / has hit on my point PM. Its allegedly targetted at those that need to be prevented from drinking, but in fact we'll ALL be paying it.
Therefore my definition of a stealth tax is a tax that we are forced to pay that is either unnoticed by some (some being those not bothered to understand it) and therefore paid iaddvertently without them noticing - becuase it doesn't appear on there payslips.
Vis a vis, I don't need helping. But I'm paying the extra's. Force the ne'er do well to may for their own care I say...
Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "Stealth Tax"?
Extra taxation levied against Solid Snake.
bails - Stella could be, and although I'm cultured and 40, I still quite like Stella from time to time...
+1 PeterPoddy
I think it's even less than 40p/pint if you brew from scratch
some out-of-date numbers (2003);
The government raises £7bn through taxes on alcohol
Alcohol costs £6.4bn in lost productivity
The NHS spends £1.7bn treating alcohol-related illnesses
Alcohol-related crime costs £7.3bn
Another £4.7bn is spent on the human and emotional costs of alcohol-related crime
tax revenue = £7bn
total costs = £20.1bn
source: [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3121440.stm ]old bbc page - and government report[/url]
up-to-date numbers would be great, but i couldn't find them...
+1 PeterPoddy
I think it's even less than 40p/pint if you brew from scratch
Who do you think the targeted drinkers are?I'd say, the young, middle aged women and the upper class.
Can't tell if this is serious.....
The price ranges affected by this have already been shown. If you buy a normal bottle of branded spirits from the supermarket, you probably won't be paying below 45p/unit. If you buy drinks at a pub/bar/club, you probably won't be paying more than 45p/unit (when was the last time you bought a measure of a spirit for less than 45p, or a pint of beer/cider for less than 90p?!). The target is the people drinking Kestrel on the park bench all day!
[quote=Kryton57 ]
Thats not / has hit on my point PM. Its allegedly targetted at those that need to be prevented from drinking, but in fact we'll ALL be paying it.Genuinely sorry, but I'm still not understanding your point. How will I be paying additional tax if I don't currently buy any alcohol below the minimum price?
The only "stealth" tax in pay here is how much I pay to keep the NHS provisioned to deal with alcohol abuse. 😆
Druidh;
Apologies, I've misunderstood this completely - bails post before your's has clarifed the issue. I though "extra" was being added on to everything, where actually it isn't any extra if its already over the minimum per unit costs.
Doh.... 😳
Can I blame the fact we had a rough night with the baby and am tired?
If it's colic then I can forgive anything
Kryton: I don't think £1.08 is an unreasonable price for a large can of stella, that's no less than what I would expect to pay. A fiver for 4 large cans feels about right in my head. (I've just realised I haven't bought any beer for ages, so I might be miles out.)
I also agree with druidh, I don't understand what your point is, if you're not buying cheap, meths laced, Lithuanian vodka then you probably haven't got much to worry about. And it's not a stealth tax, it's VAT. Don't they show the amount of VAT on the receipt? Not very stealthy.
Edit: Just seen your post saying you've misunderstood the mechanism. Fair enough 🙂
It's worth noting that, say, for wine of 13%, with duty of £1.90 and VAT @ 20%, that per unit of alcohol you are already paying about 25p in tax and for spirits (37.5%) about 32p.
The baby defence.
Can we add that to the list?
So, if there is a minimum cost that is *not* tax then presumably that will increase the profits of the producers / suppliers?
Or they'll find that nobody buys the cheap stuff anymore.
yes.
how it's distributed will be interesting. But I understand that wholesale margins are ridiculously tight - like just 10-25p on 6x bottles of crap plonk (echo falls, £20 for 6ish)
there was a good article on moneybox the other day. will track down the transcript...
Actually was file on four
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n65zg
MAN:This is the Echo Falls red, which is one of the ones
that’s been talked about.
URRY: In these boxes here?
MAN: Yes.
URRY: How much are you selling a box of six for?
MAN: Well, the standard shelf price on an Echo Falls red is
£21.99. As it happens, on that particular line, we’re on promotion at the moment, so we’re
selling for £19.79 plus VAT for six bottles.
talking about margins:
We fight so competitively over price. On wine
or beer, 10p is a big differential. Pounds a case is unheard of
Transcript:
although I'm cultured and 40, I still quite like Stella from time to time
Oxymoron?
Nobby - Memberalthough I'm cultured and 40, I still quite like Stella from time to time
Oxymoron?
No thanks, my spots cleared up years ago.
Good news for dealers.
Good news for dealers.
What, people will be buying smack instead of Gold Label?
Kryton: I don't think £1.08 is an unreasonable price for a large can of stella, that's no less than what I would expect to pay. A fiver for 4 large cans feels about right in my head.
Which is about what strong lager cost when I started drinking aged about 14-15 in the mid-nineties. Pretty sure everything else has got a lot more expensive since then, so booze (from a shop anyway) is very cheap nowadays.
It has some weird effects on pricing. If you artificially drive up the price of the cheap stuff, then the midrange stuff ends up not much more expensive. Hands up everyone who doesn't think that over time shops will increase the price of the midrange stuff to re-establish a gap?
binners - MemberApparently a large problem is the standing up/falling over drinking establishments selling acid-coloured 'shots' ridiculously cheap. I think it'd impact on that
I used to work in a nightclub that on thursday nights did tequila for 20p a shot, vodka for 50p. "I'll have a pint of tequila and 2 glasses please" being a common order.
(ironically it was the least fighty night we did, because everyone who'd normally get tipsy then pick a fight ended up getting discombobulated and collapsing instead)
Can't tell if this is serious.....
Yip - serious, because those three groups have been shown to have the highest rates of alcohol abuse.
Anyway - back to the bit I mentioned earlier - the vast majority of those under 18 who have been asked say that they drink because it is cheaper than any other option they have for filling their time. Kids have asked for the introduction of minimum price per unit - the least we can do is grant that wish. The kids arent daft - they're a hell of a lot wiser than we were, and a lot harder working too.
Whenever I see the likes of Kestrel Super or Special Brew or White Lightning I always wonder how the manufacturers can justify it to themselves. Of course, the justification is irrelevant next to the profits.
They must know what their target audience is - you don't see many telly ads featuring groups of suspiciously attractive 'friends' dancing around and drinking Kestrel Super do you?
Short of taking out advertising space on stray dogs (thank Sean Locke for the material), I can't think of a way they COULD advertise.
In short, it's pretty easy to identify the problem products - and these would be damaged (rightly) by a minimum price.
Can anyone seriously say that it is curtailing enjoyment trying to make Kestrel Super unaffordable - have you ever even smelt that stuff let alone tasted it?????
Anyone intently staring at there own navel regarding us Brits drinking habits should go for a night out in Finland.
Well I lived in Suomi for a year and never saw the type of carnage I have seen in Newport and Swansea, people got shitfaced but rarely resorted to violence. Just my experience.
Anyone intently staring at there own navel regarding us Brits drinking habits should go for a night out in Finland.
Well I lived in Suomi for a year and never saw the type of carnage I have seen in Newport and Swansea, people got shitfaced but rarely resorted to violence. Just my experience.
Because it's not the booze at all!!
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15265317 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15265317[/url]
Can anyone seriously say that it is curtailing enjoyment trying to make Kestrel Super unaffordable - have you ever even smelt that stuff let alone tasted it?????
That's an easy stance to take on whitemiddleclasstrackworld, but it's ostensibly taxing the homeless.
Mrs K has just return from the weekly shop. Windowlene on BOGOFF, go figure...
Mrs K has just return from the weekly shop. Windowlene on BOGOFF, go figure...
Don't knock Windowlene. If's fine if you mix it with something.
