MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
not much of a sentence really is it - will they come out the other side remorseful? personally I doubt it, yet the tax payer will most likely fund a new cosy lifestyle for them and the family. I just hope the victims get the same attention they deserve
think they need help - not prison.
they are only children themselves.
You cannot blame those boys in this instance. Kids should have been taken into care long before anything like this happened.
its outrageous that they were tried in a criminal court at all and criminal punishment is of no use.
Sorry - these two boys are clearly damaged and victims themselves. Only in England ( and a very few other countries) would children of this age be treated disgracefully like this.
a travesty of justice.
Long post about this over on the other forum...
They were tried in a criminal court because they are CRIMINAlS though?!
they're not going to prison - well not what I would call prison anyroad! (which is correct, they need all the help they can get, but I just can't see them becoming model citizens out of it)
call me old fashioned but I hope karma comes into play at some point in the future
dicky - to be a criminal you have to have some comprehension that what you did was wrong - they clearly did not.
when my tumble dryer was damaged i cut off its energy supply and dumped it . There is a lot to be said for that approach. I hope if any of your family get tortured to near death your equally forgiving.
I'd disagree on one point TJ. I believe that they knew exactly what they were doing but due to their "toxic upbringing" cared little about their actions or consequences. However I would agree that they are damaged and need mending.
The person at the root of this is the father. Maybe he was subject to a similar upbringing too, I don't know. I would suggest a good first step would be steralisation of the father then he can't produce any further damaged offspring. In fact I'd go a step further and ban him from contact with children under threat of custodial sentence.
Indefinite could be a long time though
'to be a criminal you have to have some comprehension that what you did was wrong - they clearly did not'
cobblers. Of course they did.
the children had already been removed form their parents. Sadly this was done too late.
TJ is right, they had no comprehension of the evil they were committing as the messages they received from their parents were that it was ok to undertake such acts.
If all kids were subjected to violence and the telly tubbies used bricks to batter tinky winky and forced Po to perform oral sex on Barny the dinosaur then they'd all think this kind of thing was fine.
dicky - to be a criminal you have to have some comprehension that what you did was wrong - they clearly did not.
Yeah thats rubbish TJ and you know it. If they didn't know why did they take their victims down to the woods? But yeah their upbringing was at some fault for them being freaks.
Agree with TJ.
Very deeply disturbed young boys, who have grown up watching their father beat their mother and have clearly been damaged as a result.
They need out of that environment and they need help.
I hope they get that but I doubt they will 🙁
At the age of ten? It would be very unusual for them to have fully developed moral sense at that age and in their case their so badly damaged that I doubt their development is normal.
this is why in humane societies children are not tried in adult courts - even in Scotland it is very rare children are tried in adult courts and in most of the rest of the world it never happens.
Some links to the debate on this. I think the whole trial, media circus and sentencing is an huge stain on the English law.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/jun/20/bulger.familyandrelationships
comprehension or not. They need teaching that you can't do that. Lock them up for the rest of their natural (if we're not going to execute the evil little toerags), sterilsie the parents. Job done. A message is sent to all the other verminous kids roaming the streets these days.
Im not really sure of the point of this post ?
This is a terrible crime, but im not really sure why people are critising the length of the sentence.
What do they think if their let out in 10 years all of a sudden there'll be sorry and be able to live decents lives.
Or maybe in 15 years every thing will be hunky dory ? How would you work that out M6TTF ?
In reality I dont think there is much that can be done either for the victims or accused.
Like people say the accused obviously need help as well, but I doubt there is very much that can be done for them they are very unlikely to lead normal productive lives after this no matter how good the physiological help.
Also its not like after the sentence there just going to be let straight back on the street.
Dickydutch - you really think that will do any good? Are children deterred by prison sentences?
If they cannot comprehend they cannot learn
Was reported yesterday that during the search for the 2nd victim, the father of the assailants came forward with his boys and told the police his boys weren't to blame because they had been with him all day.
This was BEFORE the assailants had been formally named.
This tells me several things, that the father at least was in regular contact with the boys, the boys KNEW what they had done was wrong and that the father was prepared to cover for attempted murder.
Sometimes my stance against the death penalty is somewhat stretched...
at the age of ten i bet you didn't stop picking your nose just because your mate got grounded by his mum for doing it.
you can't send a message to 'verminous kids' by locking up 2 other kids who they've never met. Your average 10 year old will have little comprehension of why that is in any way relevant to them.
Oh, they knew what they were doing alright. They just didn't care.
I do agree that it's help they need more than anything though. I feel sorry for everyone involved TBH.
Its the parents that should go down
mi©k - Member
when my tumble dryer was damaged i cut off its energy supply and dumped it . There is a lot to be said for that approach.
Are you seriously advocating the death sentence for ten year olds????? 😯
scu98rkr
There is a fair chance that they can be rehabilitated but the criminal sentence makes it less likely. Venables and Thompson - the bulger killers - one of them was well rehabilitated the other less successfully.
It can be done.
At their current age I reckon the longer you lock them up the worse they will be when they get out.
@scu98rkr - (i think) my point was that I don't think 5 years is long enough for any sort of rehabilitation given the extreme nature of the crime and the appalling upbringing they clearly had. I hope they don't have a 'normal' life in the future, i don't think they deserve to. Maybe that's ignorant and non-forgiving of me but if it happened to my son i'd damn well make sure they suffered!
andemJeremy - Member
scu98rkr
There is a fair chance that they can be rehabilitated but the criminal sentence makes it less likely. Venables and Thompson - the bulger killers - one of them was well rehabilitated the other less successfully.
It can be done.
do you have evidence of this?
I agree Muddydwarf - shocking to hear Dad defending the boys even before they had found the second boy.
The parents need locking up in a prison where the 'prison rules' will be regularly dealt out.
These boys are never going to be right and I wonder how society will cope with them when they are eventually allowed out. Indefinite is a very long time for these two.
M6TTF
Its more or less what the judge said at the time that there was a court case bout them going into an adult jail or not.
graham s yes i am , or at least locked up til they are 16 and then hung
There is a lot to be said for that approach. I hope if any of your family get tortured to near death your equally forgiving
Thats why we have a justice system that does not consider the vengeful approach advocated by many above.
Yes I may feel that way but I wouldnt like to live in a society that acts on my basic and neanderthal response.
I agree mostly with TJ and as a parent now and someone who was growing up in Liverpool at the time of the Bulger attack I can honestly say I shed tears at the time and since when I consider the pain and suffering he must have experienced. These boys were relatively lucky however I suspect they are scarred for life.
Wreaking punishments from the middle ages is not the answer.
I fail to see that if I kid hurts another kid he doesn't think it's a bad thing - he won't want to get hurt in the same way right?
mi©k
and your solution would achieve what exactly?
they would not do it again for sure and it may put off other people who think that its quite a good idea as theyve nowt else to do ;-(
FFS what chance did they ever have with parents (and I use the term extremely loosely) like that?
What the two kids did was vile, inhuman and difficult to comprehend, but it seems to me that the initial crime had been commited a long time ago, by the sad excuses for human beings that were supposed to bring them up. None of us know how much comprehension they had about what they were doing, it's easy to say 'oh they knew', but after years of desensitisation and normalisation of abusive behaviour, would you?. I only hope the 'sentence' will be as much about help as it is about punishment. And what about the victims? Most people just seem to be baying for 'justice', while overlooking what's going to happen to those two poor little buggers? As I said on the other thread, they'll more than likely end up totally reliant on social and health care for the rest of their lives, so instead of wasting time thinking up punishments for the perpetrators, we should perhaps try using our time more positively in helping the victims.
Tandemjeremy – You are talking absolute cobblers!! I certainly knew what was right and wrong at the age of 10. I am now 30 and I think it would be fair to say that a 10 year old of this day and age has far more understanding of life than what I had at the age of ten. Kids DO grow up much quicker now. To physically pick up a sink and smash it over another kids head is just plain EVIL. As well as the other disgusting and sickening acts the kids were put through. And you really think these little rats didn't think they were doing anything wrong?? What a load of cr@p. At the age of ten they are 1-2 years off high school. They are fully aware of what is right and wrong at that age.
I certainly knew what was right and wrong at the age of 10
you aren't quite getting this are you
YOU aren't one of those kids
YOU (i'm assuming) weren't bought up in an extremely violent and unsuitable household
they were given a completely incorrect set of morals by their parents. At the age of ten what you by and large thought of as right and wrong is what your parents told you was
You know how we are/were known for taking nuclear waste from other countries and making money out of it? I reckon we should pay someone to look after these 2 problems for us. Give them a new start I say - Zimbabwe maybe?
When the kids stamped on the ducklings and cygnets in Sandall Park, the Police and soc services were involved, they knew after that it was wrong.
When they set fire to a girl later that year, same again.
When they tried to burn the cafe down, same again.
I could list a good few other incidents known about locally, from about three years ago up to Edlington. What they weren't shown either by parents or the so called professionals was that those actions were unacceptable, and arguably the incidents which led to their removal to Edlington should have had them in a secure unit with 24hr supervision. Sending them to a 60yr old foster carer with limited mobility, unbriefed about their previous vindictive violence and not a team of specialists wasn't helping them. I hope they can be rehabilitated, and think it should be possible. They have never had a prolonged spell in a nurturing environment with appropriate boundaries, sanctions and rewards, so there's a lot of unlearning to do. However, I can't see how a minimum of five years sounds right for what they have done, I'd have thought twenty would be a good starting point. Wouldn't have a problem with them staying in a prison or institution for life as a punishment, whether or not rehab takes place though, and that would go for any other attempted or actual murder.
Underthesun.
You are the one talking cobblers. go read up a bit of developmental psychology, read up a bit about deviant behaviour.
Try to understand why in most of the world children of ten are not treated as criminals. Try to understand why the upbringing they had turned them into what they are.
No child of ten has a fully developed moral compass - thats why they are not treated as adults, they can't vote, buy alcohol etc.
Reminds me of child soldiers in Africa. They tend to get rehabilitated rather than locked up.
DOUBLE POST DELETED
graham s yes i am , or at least locked up til they are 16 and then hung
😯
Right. So despite the fact this was "only" an assault (a very brutal and sickening one) committed by very disturbed children, you would like to see the re-introduction of capital punishment specifically to deal with them?
Do you honestly think that would prevent any other kids being brought up in an environment like that and going on to commit such crimes? I can't see how it would have the slightest impact.
out of interest why do people seem to think that children commiting these crimes should be treated in a different way to adults ?
Local social services must take a huge share of the blame - with hindsight ( always 20 / 20) there were many opportunities to deal with these children and their clear issues but these opportunities were missed on numerous occasions. Thats probably the saddest part. all avoidable.
mi©k - Memberout of interest why do people seem to think that children commiting these crimes should be treated in a different way to adults ?
Because they are children. Why do we not allow children to vote, to join the army, to buy alcohol?
Local social services must take a huge share of the blame
No they don't. It's the parents. Simple as that. If anyone need locking up and / or shooting, it's them.
Rights and wrongs of the age of criminal consent aside what seems most worrying is that every report refers to their lack of remorse for their actions.
A psychiatrist told the judge who sentenced the boys that the younger brother had shown no remorse for what he did or empathy towards the boys he attacked.
This alone means that they have to be separated from the rest of society until they develop a sense of empathy/social responsibility/compassion for others.
Ultimately it is the down to their parents, the environment they were raised in and the failure of the state to protect them
yes but if these kids can be sorted in five years why cant an adult . if these two hadnt have been caught for something til they were 16 they would have still been the same people just older so why couldnt the be sorted out in five years then ? bearing in mind them being 16 is not so far away.
[i]with hindsight ( always 20 / 20)[/i]
20/20 is actually quite poor. I'd expect better visual acuity from hindsight.
[/optometrical pedantry]
There didn't seem to be as many cases of evilness and calculated depravity in 'times gone by'. When kids knew from an early age what was right and wrong. I also cant help but feel that kids then knew what would happen is they acted in such a manner.
They are a long way from 16. Tehre is a massive difference between a child of 10 and a near adult of 16.
The simple difference is that adults have or should have a moral compass - children of the age they are do not. I believe in rehabilitation for adult offenders as well - but with adults there is some point in deterrence and in punishment. With children there is not.
I nurse in a unit working with people with personality disorders, which sadly, the two kids who carried out the attack will inevitably be diagnosed with. People arent born with personality disorders, their upbringing and life experience creates it. Stop getting a hair across your collective arses about punishment - it makes no difference whatsoever, it just doesnt, doesnt work, save to create some form of satisfaction to say justice has been done. They need help just as much as the victims, if only to try and minimise the risk of reoffending.
dickydutch - MemberThere didn't seem to be as many cases of evilness and calculated depravity in 'times gone by'. When kids knew from an early age what was right and wrong. I also cant help but feel that kids then knew what would happen is they acted in such a manner.
Evidence? I think you will find the difference now is that these thngs get publicised.
Mary bell was in the 60s a very similar case.
go back further and you will find a lot more. Victorian times? fagin and Oliver twist?
[i]yes but if these kids can be sorted in five years why cant an adult . if these two hadnt have been caught for something til they were 16 they would have still been the same people just older so why couldnt the be sorted out in five years then ? bearing in mind them being 16 is not so far away[/i]
christ. In five years, my youngest will be at school and no longer in nappies. Things change. Is it so hard to believe that a child is different from an adult?
yes but if these kids can be sorted in five years why cant an adult .
Because at 10 they are very much still developing and learning.
They have spent their entire lives in an extremely hostile environment and have learnt from their violent father
if these two hadnt have been caught for something til they were 16 they would have still been the same people just older so why couldnt the be sorted out in five years then ? bearing in mind them being 16 is not so far away.
Conversely what if they'd done it six years earlier? Would you be advocating that four year olds should be executed for assault?
What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?
It's hardly a trivial offence is it. One strike (in this case, one hell of a strike), you're out.
andyp of course not i just wonder why all this do gooding stops as soon as they reach what the law considers adulthood? they would still be the same evil bastards they just may have not have been caught as early ?
Examples have to be made of these critters.
If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.
Lets not forget also that they will be serving their sentence in nice comfy rooms probably with a games room, nice snap, sky TV etc etc. All of the psychiatric b*llsh*t and counselling they need costing the tax payer huge amounts of cash.
Hardly a punishment anyway is it.
"What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?"
Because life sentences in this country only rarely mean life. If you look back at my other posts on here, I'm sure you'll see that I'm not saying they shouldnt have recieved a custodial sentence, but should be given adequate and appropriate help whilst serving that sentence - I agree that what they did was vile, evil even, but the bottom line is that they are children.
This 'do gooding' applies right through our criminal justice system any way. 'Oh he battered a 90 year old granny because he was on drugs'. 'Oh he murdered two little girls because he had a personality disorder'. Excuse after excuse. There is no law anymore in this country. Just jumped psychologists making up b*llsh*t excuses to lessen the sentence.
[i]There is no law anymore in this country. Just jumped psychologists making up b*llsh*t excuses to lessen the sentence. [/i]
Daily Mail post of the day.
Daily Mail post of the day.
And thats saying something!!
Seldom have I read such ill informed and vengeful bull***t.
Ooh yes, lock them up forever, and hang them, and flog them, and put their heads on spikes...
Or try to learn about them, try to unravel the complex causes, stop turning your backs, stop pretending that families like this don't exist, and try to see how we can prevent this happening again. See if we can change them, see if we can unmake these damaged people.
This would unfortunately involve you putting down your pitchforks and burning torches, and thinking instead of howling at the moon...
i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse yet these didnt seem to go around murdering other kids out of want for something to do ;-(
In 5 years the victims of this crime will be 16, will they have had the same amount of time and attention spent on them as the perps?
As an aside perhaps parents should be made to be criminally responsible for their off spring until they are old enough to be guided by thier "moral compass".
[i]i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse yet these didnt seem to go around murdering other kids out of want for something to do ;-( [/i]
how about going on holiday somewhere more cheerful?
You haven't got children mick, have you? If you did you would know that there is a world of difference between 11 and 16. Or as an analogy; an adult is pretty much the production model, a child is still very much under development.
underthesun - MemberExamples have to be made of these critters.
If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.
This is the most laughable post on here. Do you really think children think can be deterred like that - children of 10 yrs old? No - they might be deterred by "your dad will be angry" but the prospect of a jail sentence? Were these boys deterred by the harsh treatment of Venables and Thompson? That really was a good deterrent wasn't it.
Well put crikey!
andyp strangely it wasnt much of a holiday unless you like mass graves and ethnic cleansing
We don't know the full info of the case!
Bit like that that guy attacking the burgler and getting locked up?!
[i]andyp strangely it wasnt much of a holiday unless you like mass graves and ethnic cleansing [/i]
hence my suggestion.
Underthesun - the people that I look after usually spend longer in custody (due to various sections of the mental health act) than they would if given a prison sentence. I'll obviously never be able to physically show you what my working life entails, but I would suggest you refrain from passing insults on people that are trying to make a difference without having a bloody clue what youre talking about.
coyote yes ive got four as it happens. my point was not so much that a 10 year old is the same as a 16 year old but why cant a 16 year old be treated and turned around if the ten year old can. or why dont they really seem to attempt to at least try ?
andyp i think the three tours bit kinda implied it was work related rather than fun in the sun 😉
[i]andyp i think the three tours bit kinda implied it was work related rather than fun in the sun [/i]
You're a coach driver or holiday rep?
The parents should be punished.
The children should be punished.
Im out of here.
Dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.
underthesun - and punishing them would achieve what?