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Local social services must take a huge share of the blame - with hindsight ( always 20 / 20) there were many opportunities to deal with these children and their clear issues but these opportunities were missed on numerous occasions. Thats probably the saddest part. all avoidable.
mi©k - Memberout of interest why do people seem to think that children commiting these crimes should be treated in a different way to adults ?
Because they are children. Why do we not allow children to vote, to join the army, to buy alcohol?
Local social services must take a huge share of the blame
No they don't. It's the parents. Simple as that. If anyone need locking up and / or shooting, it's them.
Rights and wrongs of the age of criminal consent aside what seems most worrying is that every report refers to their lack of remorse for their actions.
A psychiatrist told the judge who sentenced the boys that the younger brother had shown no remorse for what he did or empathy towards the boys he attacked.
This alone means that they have to be separated from the rest of society until they develop a sense of empathy/social responsibility/compassion for others.
Ultimately it is the down to their parents, the environment they were raised in and the failure of the state to protect them
yes but if these kids can be sorted in five years why cant an adult . if these two hadnt have been caught for something til they were 16 they would have still been the same people just older so why couldnt the be sorted out in five years then ? bearing in mind them being 16 is not so far away.
[i]with hindsight ( always 20 / 20)[/i]
20/20 is actually quite poor. I'd expect better visual acuity from hindsight.
[/optometrical pedantry]
There didn't seem to be as many cases of evilness and calculated depravity in 'times gone by'. When kids knew from an early age what was right and wrong. I also cant help but feel that kids then knew what would happen is they acted in such a manner.
They are a long way from 16. Tehre is a massive difference between a child of 10 and a near adult of 16.
The simple difference is that adults have or should have a moral compass - children of the age they are do not. I believe in rehabilitation for adult offenders as well - but with adults there is some point in deterrence and in punishment. With children there is not.
I nurse in a unit working with people with personality disorders, which sadly, the two kids who carried out the attack will inevitably be diagnosed with. People arent born with personality disorders, their upbringing and life experience creates it. Stop getting a hair across your collective arses about punishment - it makes no difference whatsoever, it just doesnt, doesnt work, save to create some form of satisfaction to say justice has been done. They need help just as much as the victims, if only to try and minimise the risk of reoffending.
dickydutch - MemberThere didn't seem to be as many cases of evilness and calculated depravity in 'times gone by'. When kids knew from an early age what was right and wrong. I also cant help but feel that kids then knew what would happen is they acted in such a manner.
Evidence? I think you will find the difference now is that these thngs get publicised.
Mary bell was in the 60s a very similar case.
go back further and you will find a lot more. Victorian times? fagin and Oliver twist?
[i]yes but if these kids can be sorted in five years why cant an adult . if these two hadnt have been caught for something til they were 16 they would have still been the same people just older so why couldnt the be sorted out in five years then ? bearing in mind them being 16 is not so far away[/i]
christ. In five years, my youngest will be at school and no longer in nappies. Things change. Is it so hard to believe that a child is different from an adult?
yes but if these kids can be sorted in five years why cant an adult .
Because at 10 they are very much still developing and learning.
They have spent their entire lives in an extremely hostile environment and have learnt from their violent father
if these two hadnt have been caught for something til they were 16 they would have still been the same people just older so why couldnt the be sorted out in five years then ? bearing in mind them being 16 is not so far away.
Conversely what if they'd done it six years earlier? Would you be advocating that four year olds should be executed for assault?
What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?
It's hardly a trivial offence is it. One strike (in this case, one hell of a strike), you're out.
andyp of course not i just wonder why all this do gooding stops as soon as they reach what the law considers adulthood? they would still be the same evil bastards they just may have not have been caught as early ?
Examples have to be made of these critters.
If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.
Lets not forget also that they will be serving their sentence in nice comfy rooms probably with a games room, nice snap, sky TV etc etc. All of the psychiatric b*llsh*t and counselling they need costing the tax payer huge amounts of cash.
Hardly a punishment anyway is it.
"What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?"
Because life sentences in this country only rarely mean life. If you look back at my other posts on here, I'm sure you'll see that I'm not saying they shouldnt have recieved a custodial sentence, but should be given adequate and appropriate help whilst serving that sentence - I agree that what they did was vile, evil even, but the bottom line is that they are children.
This 'do gooding' applies right through our criminal justice system any way. 'Oh he battered a 90 year old granny because he was on drugs'. 'Oh he murdered two little girls because he had a personality disorder'. Excuse after excuse. There is no law anymore in this country. Just jumped psychologists making up b*llsh*t excuses to lessen the sentence.
[i]There is no law anymore in this country. Just jumped psychologists making up b*llsh*t excuses to lessen the sentence. [/i]
Daily Mail post of the day.
Daily Mail post of the day.
And thats saying something!!
Seldom have I read such ill informed and vengeful bull***t.
Ooh yes, lock them up forever, and hang them, and flog them, and put their heads on spikes...
Or try to learn about them, try to unravel the complex causes, stop turning your backs, stop pretending that families like this don't exist, and try to see how we can prevent this happening again. See if we can change them, see if we can unmake these damaged people.
This would unfortunately involve you putting down your pitchforks and burning torches, and thinking instead of howling at the moon...
i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse yet these didnt seem to go around murdering other kids out of want for something to do ;-(
In 5 years the victims of this crime will be 16, will they have had the same amount of time and attention spent on them as the perps?
As an aside perhaps parents should be made to be criminally responsible for their off spring until they are old enough to be guided by thier "moral compass".
[i]i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse yet these didnt seem to go around murdering other kids out of want for something to do ;-( [/i]
how about going on holiday somewhere more cheerful?
You haven't got children mick, have you? If you did you would know that there is a world of difference between 11 and 16. Or as an analogy; an adult is pretty much the production model, a child is still very much under development.
underthesun - MemberExamples have to be made of these critters.
If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.
This is the most laughable post on here. Do you really think children think can be deterred like that - children of 10 yrs old? No - they might be deterred by "your dad will be angry" but the prospect of a jail sentence? Were these boys deterred by the harsh treatment of Venables and Thompson? That really was a good deterrent wasn't it.
Well put crikey!
andyp strangely it wasnt much of a holiday unless you like mass graves and ethnic cleansing
We don't know the full info of the case!
Bit like that that guy attacking the burgler and getting locked up?!
[i]andyp strangely it wasnt much of a holiday unless you like mass graves and ethnic cleansing [/i]
hence my suggestion.
Underthesun - the people that I look after usually spend longer in custody (due to various sections of the mental health act) than they would if given a prison sentence. I'll obviously never be able to physically show you what my working life entails, but I would suggest you refrain from passing insults on people that are trying to make a difference without having a bloody clue what youre talking about.
coyote yes ive got four as it happens. my point was not so much that a 10 year old is the same as a 16 year old but why cant a 16 year old be treated and turned around if the ten year old can. or why dont they really seem to attempt to at least try ?
andyp i think the three tours bit kinda implied it was work related rather than fun in the sun 😉
[i]andyp i think the three tours bit kinda implied it was work related rather than fun in the sun [/i]
You're a coach driver or holiday rep?
The parents should be punished.
The children should be punished.
Im out of here.
Dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.
underthesun - and punishing them would achieve what?
Examples have to be made of these critters.If not other children will find it acceptable to behave in such a way.
Examples do have to be made, examples of the parents. Appropriate punishment should be handed out to them. If the Children are morally unaware of there actions are they any different to an animal that attacks after an horendous upbringing.
Punishment for the parents and an inquiry into how the system let things get this far should be the first things on our minds. The situation is horrific but one that we hope not to see again if it can be avoided
Their primary school and mine feed the same secondary. I'm asking myself if I'm happy with one of them joining my kids form in school in five years. I can't say yes to that.
i saw plenty of children during my 3 tours of bosnia that had been brought up with/subjected to some terrible treatment torture/rape/murder of family and no doubt worse
Presumably most of those kids had some exposure to a loving family though? I suspect it is easier for a young mind to see that something is wrong/bad when it's an external person that arrives and commits those acts.
When the very people who should be bringing you up and teaching you these things are drugging and torturing you then I suspect the effect is far more insidious.
But still, are you saying that all children in Bosnia are well behaved because their legal system is much better at dealing with child offenders??
...mass graves and ethnic cleansing
So clearly no signs of a cycle of violence then? 🙄
Double entry
mi©k - Membercoyote yes ive got four as it happens. my point was not so much that a 10 year old is the same as a 16 year old but why cant a 16 year old be treated and turned around if the ten year old can. or why dont they really seem to attempt to at least try ?
You can with a 16 yr old and good prisons will try to. Rehabilitation is a part of what prisons should do.
The real difference is that we can expect a 16 yr old to know right from wrong, we cannot at 10 yrs old.
ah but graham that was the adults doing that and they according to most cant be helped as theyve already broken their moral compass
and not the children over there didnt murder each other out of bordom as they still no doubt knew right from wrong
anyways if they can be cured then good if they cant i hope non of my family are living in the area they get rehomed in
tj i simply cannot believe a ten year old didnt think that what they did was wrong regardless of upbringing. but if they can be fixed then good but i hope the two lads they did it to have as much time and effort put into trying to turn their lives around too and they too can have some kind of normality brought to their lives.
barnsleymitch - Member
"What surer way to minimise the risk of reoffending than to lock them up forever?"
Because life sentences in this country only rarely mean life. If you look back at my other posts on here, I'm sure you'll see that I'm not saying they shouldnt have recieved a custodial sentence, but should be given adequate and appropriate help whilst serving that sentence - I agree that what they did was vile, evil even, but the bottom line is that they are children.
The bottom line is surely that they have ruined somebody's life. They have lost all their rights to any sense of normal life. If this involves locking them up and forgettign about them, then so be it. They do not DESERVE to be allowed to walk the streets. Not for the fact that they may reoffend, (as already said, probably likely) but because they simply no not DESERVE to be around. If they had done the same to my children, I wouldn't be concerned about using them as a study to understand why they did it. I know why they did it. Their parents are idiots. The kids are ten, and in my eyes, completely aware of what they were doing. No psychology about this and that. They're evil. Simple.
I genuinely wonder if we can ever sort out kids like these. I hope we can. Ideally we would have a good system of adoption in place, as the statistics suggest that kids brought in car have a fair chance of being further abused and ending up in prison.
In my opinion, there should be serious consequences for the parents. Preferably longer jail sentences than the kids get. Something needs to be done to give the message that people need to bring their kids up in a sane manner.
the children over there didnt murder each other out of bordom as they still no doubt knew right from wrong
And was that because they knew they would face execution?