[Closed] Merry Christmas from Southern

The franchise should be taken off them, all the funding they've received paid back to the government then sack all the employees.

Bunch of cocks.

lol. This is the price you pay for living in the over-populated, over-paid South. Suck it up or move north.

Suck it up or move north

Where the train services are still pretty shit, but at least houses aren't quite as spendy

If the office of rail regulator or whatever theyre called this week could take the franchise of the company running the trains, just who is going to drive and man the trains, the same staff that already do, theyre on a winning streak those staff involved.

lol. This is the price you pay for living in the over-populated, over-paid South. Suck it up or move north.

Nice.

It's destroying peoples family and leisure lives. One of our riding buddies has missed nearly every Tuesday ride since spring. I have a mate who rarely gets to put his kids to bed anymore.

Glad you think they deserve this.

Ask Virgin to do it, again sack all current employees in Southern.. no wait.. make them clean the tracks with toothbrushes, whilst Virgin puts a rail service together.

Bunch do selfish cocks.

Bet more than 51% of the voted Brexit.

and where are virgin going to get fully trained staff on the trains from, and as virgin dont run trains on those lines route knowledge and fares may be a problem.

Pictonroad+1

It is also driving more people onto the road network because there are so many more cancellations etc. More pollution, more delay. It's a total fiasco. Taking the franchise off Southern won't work because the staff would probably transfer to the new operator along with this issue attached - the only difference then being if the new operator had a desire or was ok with reverting to the old system.

lol. This is the price you pay for living in the over-populated, over-paid South. Suck it up or move north.

You really are an unpleasant person.

Anyhoo, I can sympathise for the reasons behind the striking, and completely agree that there should be conductors on trains. However, I can see the complete mismanagement of the system and it should be taken off Southern: That's who my anger is with, rather than the striking rail workers.

It's making my Tuesday trips to Uni rather more complicated, but that's a minor thing. It really is affecting businesses and people's lives.

lol. This is the price you pay for living in the over-populated, over-paid South. Suck it up or move north.

It's actually nothing to do with that. It's a franchise that is badly run, the location is moot.
TFL have transformed the overground into a fast efficient service. I luckily have 3 options to get to my main place of work in the centre of London (one is the overground, another run by Southern) so can avoid using southern services.

It's the people who live in Lewes I feel for, the service there is abysmal. Is that the price they pay for living even further south? 🙄

Just get Virgin to carry on South ?

You seem to be confused, I may have to make it clear.. again ...

bikebouy - Member
Ask Virgin to do it, again sack all current employees in Southern.. no wait.. make them clean the tracks with toothbrushes, whilst Virgin puts a rail service together.

Bunch do selfish cocks.

Bet more than 51% of the voted Brexit.

Can't really be more clear..

Take each word, one after the other..

and again you prove you have absolutely no idea of how the train operating companises work, eg the franchises or the government and all the rules and regulations they must obey every day, and the umpteen pre qualificaton questions they must anwer before being allowed near a train.

Its about de-skilling and running a cheaper lower cost service.

also souuthern dont own the railway tracks theyre publicly owned by network rail who southern pay to run trains on them as well as paying for electric power used.

and why would virgin trains mostly owned by stagecoach group be any better.

Re-nationalise the railways and sort out these dodgy ticket prices, where it is cheaper for me to split my journey into multiple returns such as each side of BHM, instead of quoting inflated prices for SOU to LIV.

If the unions want to get people on their side, why don't they go for the alternative approach - run the trains as normal, but open the ticket gates and refuse to collect any fares? Happy punters and hacked off bosses in one easy move...

I am guessing that would lead to instant dismissal

The dispute revolves around safety /route trained staff on trains, eg guard/conductor, and about their role opening and closing doors, nothing to do with fare collection or evasion.

They really don't care if you have a ticket now. Mate at work has not paid for months

@ stealthcat

Probably because that would be considered aiding an illegal act i.e. travelling without a valid ticket, and would be an instantly stackable offence.

This is a Southern train this morning.

[img] [/img]

It's clear Southern have no ability to resolve the fundamental issues with the service they are running.

The Trumpesque focus on dragging out a dispute with a few hundred conductors to distract from their complete lack of focus on running trains on time and with the correct amount of rolling stock should not prevent them from being held to account.

Which segment are you travelling on was? That could almost be my line (East Grinstead to Victoria).

TFL have transformed the overground into a fast efficient service

Ahahahahaha. Oh wait, you weren't being sarcastic?

TFL overground never runs on time; when it does run it's at weird times by drivers who hate both their passengers and other road users, especially cyclists.

On the bright side, I like the contactless support.

Southern is backed by Government/Taxpayer cash. Even though they make profit and pay the CE just under £2m a year* it still gets regular tax funded cash injections. £20m in September this year.

I suspect that the condition of the cash is that they don't back down to the unions, It's supposition,but something doesn't stack up in all this. The DoT should be dragging Southern's name through the mud, why aren't they?

*Data released earlier in 2016 showed GTR had the worst punctuality in the country over the past year with just 81.5 per cent of trains on time. At the same time David Brown, the chief executive of Go Ahead, which operates three franchises including Southern through GTR, saw his pay deal jump to £2.16m last year from £1.96m the year before.

[i]Which segment are you travelling on was? [/i]

Not me - I work at home. Came up on my twitter feed.

I have the pleasure of being on Southern trains (Ewell East to London Bridge).

Worked in the City for 20 years but have been relying on trains since I was aged 11 (41 years ago) and used to travel to school on the train.

It's one of the reasons I cycle commute to work.

This does seem to reinforce the appearance that the last thing that Southern Rail are actually bothered about is trains, and having them provide a service for getting people from one place to another.

It seems incidental to their true goal of hoovering up taxpayer/government subsidies, to pay to themselves, while seeing themselves as the successors to Murdoch and 'breaking' the print unions at Wapping.

Don't worry it'll all be sorted when they spend over £55 billion making the trip from London to Manchester 20 minutes quicker 😯

that photo isn't really the problem. The trains have always been like that. SWT are like that, FGW are like that, that's a function of the number of people travelling into London, which isn't really Southern's issue/fault.

A more representative photo would've been the hundreds of people crammed onto Gatwick station platform this morning, as multiple trains were cancelled. For the second time in three days I was among them. 40 minutes late this morning, 35 late on Tuesday morning. It's wearing a little thin.

The idea of getting Virgin to miraculously come and sort things is just naive and retarded.

The Unions are fighting a losing battle on this one, the era of needing a conductor is long gone. Surprised it has taken so long considering that they were removed from buses in what the 70's?

[img] [/img]

Oh yeah, the striking guards can go **** themselves.

It's given Southern a great new excuse though, the screens for DOO fail with remarkable frequency (this morning, last Thursday night and Friday morning). Considering they never failed for years on the services which have always been DOO.

MTB-Idle - Member

I have the pleasure of being on Southern trains (Ewell East to London Bridge).

Small world 7.58?

Oh and why was the ticket office/waiting room closed & locked this morning?

[i]that photo isn't really the problem[/i]

It was running late and had half the usual number of carriages. It's at least illustrative of the problem...

Not really. Any train from East Croydon to London Bridge is like that every day from 7:45-8:30. I'd rather be on a train like that than not on a train.

[i] the era of needing a conductor is long gone.[/i]

What could possibly go wrong?

[url= http://www.theargus.co.uk/business/14876232.Southern_driver_only_train__travelled_with_doors_open_/ ]http://www.theargus.co.uk/business/14876232.Southern_driver_only_train__travelled_with_doors_open_/[/url]

Oh.

And the dispute is about 'downgrading' conductors to 'train managers'. The latter have no safety responsibility and are there to only collect fares etc. It's about Southern saving money and compromising on safety, not cutting staff.

Yes, because everyone knows the guards actually use the brakes, thus completely preventing incidents like that 🙄

And the dispute is about 'downgrading' conductors to 'train managers'. The latter have no safety responsibility and are there to only collect fares etc. It's about Southern saving money and compromising on safety, not cutting staff.

You sound like you work for the union?! Plenty of services have operated driver only for ages, and as far as I'm aware, there's not been any train based apocalypse. Sack them all, none of this soft "new contract if you want it" shit.

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.disabledgo.com/blog/2016/09/southerns-rail-plans-will-breach-equality-act-says-disabled-access-expert/#.WD_7633nCng ]this makes interesting reading[/url] but hey who gives a **** about the disabled.

Biggest hypocrite going. Farage is less of a ****.

this makes interesting reading but hey who gives a **** about the disabled.

This has been done ad nauseum. There's a lot of "might"/"could" in that article, plenty of services run DOO anyway. In exceptional services some services may run driver only, the alternative is to cancel the service, which doesn't really help disabled people either.

The trio – who deliberately did not book any of their off-peak journeys – faced repeated access problems, such as platforms without portable ramps, a train with a locked help point, unstaffed stations, unhelpful call-centre staff, a broken lift, help-point staff who disconnected calls without providing any help, and unsafe ramps, although they also praised some of the support they received from staff.

Yep, all of that is definitely resolved by having a guard on board.

Sack them all, none of this soft "new contract if you want it" shit.

🙄

[img] [/img]

Why not? It's just union bullying. The only people to suffer are the paying customers, like me.

Yes it is about Southern saving money by losing the conductors. No it is not a safety issue. There are many many services in and out of the UK with driver only trains. Not to mention the driverless ones.....

So Southern Railways have not tried to bully anyone? An incompetent shower who couldn't run a piss up in a brewery.

So Southern Railways have not tried to bully anyone? An incompetent shower who couldn't run a piss up in a brewery.

They're being held to ransom by the union. I do agree they're a bit shit, but I place the blame for all this shit squarely at the feet of the union. Because that's whose fault it is. Simple.

So there!

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=AVFseDkyHiVYcrTTtV0giuS6sxsGCJPjfHewHmdfFPdw4Un1INZm2PNWtoAbkZZi[/img]

Well that's told me 😆 😆

@waswas that could be a photo of any commuter train, south west etc. Full and standing only is normal on a Guildford/Waterloo service for which you pay around £750 a month inc parking

Rail franchises involve bidding to provide the service at the lowest cost. Southern have clearly underbid imo plus they have union issues. It's beyond the point of no return and they should just hand it back to government for re-tender

Privatising the railways would be a disaster. The service was rubbish before with massive underinvestment from governments over decades.

I didn't vote for Brexshite and I do not support any of thier "key" values.

With this in mind, Southern Rail should invoke a 3 strikes and you are sacked mentality. If employees fail to turn up for work 3 times you are sacked. I have no reason to think that this strategy is unreasonable, it's used throughout my industry to great effect. You'll find that this focuses the mind and wallet. I then realise that this will have a knock effect to those, sacked such as a delay before claiming benefits, tough shite.
Then I propose another Body other than Southern take on the franchise, actively employ people from the EU, and if there is a shortfall in the meantime to run a full service then get the Forces involved to fill the gap. By all means open out the vacencies the current Southern employees, but issue a no Union membership rule.

This is a national tragedy, and should be dealt with as such.

It's typical of Brexshiteers to try and return this country back to the 1970's, we should stand against this with force and intellect.

This does seem to reinforce the appearance that the last thing that Southern Rail are actually bothered about is trains, and having them provide a service for getting people from one place to another.

Rail franchises involve bidding to provide the service at the lowest cost. Southern have clearly underbid imo plus they have union issues. It's beyond the point of no return and they should just hand it back to government for re-tender

As far as I understand it (and I've got work to do, so don't have the time to look up all the detail), Southern are on a completely different deal to every other franchise holder. The rough idea is that the government pay them to run a service as detailed in the timetable published. It doesn't actually matter what trains do or don't run, that wil not affect what Southern are paid. they also don't get to keep any ticket revenues. There is basically no incentive for them to actually operate a railway. They know they will not likely get the franchise renewed, so the less outgoings they have (like not having to pay striking workers) the better the bottom line! Genious!

I really don't get the anti union stuff,

How about this scenario, Southern get the no union rule as outlined by bikebuoy, what is to stop them saying ok everyone gets a 20% pay cut and has to work 60 hrs a week. Who is there to stand up for the workers and say no you can't treat people like that.

I understand that unions in the 70's and 80's went to far in many cases. But employees need to have some protection against awful employers.

A lot of complete misunderstandings about how the rail network is run here (though a few do get it).

As said, the staff that do the day to day running are the same regardless of who is in charge so stripping franchises does nothing to address the underlying problems. Also, network rail arent reknown for their cooperation with train companies so that maintenance and such is performed on time and at mutually convenient times. You also get issues where train operators have to share track, some services get priority meaning that a slightly late service can face a long wait for a priority service to overtake which may be late itself. Lastly, timetabling is rarely if ever set by the franchisee, up here its Transport Scotland so down there I'd imagine it will be the DoT and possibly TFL (which could introduce more problems with two timetables running across each other).

FWIW the safety concerns are all bull IMO. We've had conductorless electric trains up here for years, since the 80's actually and been happily getting on with life whilst you lot were still falling out slam shuts or taking out platforms full of folk with them.I'm not sure what a conductor would have done to prevent the example either, walk the length of the train at every station to check the doors are shut?

Bikebouy - not sure it youre trolling badly or not. You cant take away peoples rights to union membership nor sack them for taking legal industrial action. I'd also be very surprised if any squaddies could even drive a train let alone competently. Not sure what your industry is but I'd frankly want nothing to do with any company that tried that sort of crap.

what is to stop them saying ok everyone gets a 20% pay cut and has to work 60 hrs a week

I'd say the European Working time directive for the hours, but......

Exactly 😆

Or go the Ryanair route.

Don't employ drivers, guards and ticket collectors directly but employ a number of agencies that provide drivers, guards and ticket collectors as part of a service contract. If service provider A can't provide the service, then service provider B gets to fill a position instead.

[img] [/img]

You also get issues where train operators have to share track, some services get priority meaning that a slightly late service can face a long wait for a priority service to overtake which may be late itself. Lastly, timetabling is rarely if ever set by the franchisee, up here its Transport Scotland so down there I'd imagine it will be the DoT and possibly TFL (which could introduce more problems with two timetables running across each other).

All the same TOC now, they amalgamated it in their wisdom as the first of the new "super franchises", as Ben_mw says.

I really don't get the anti union stuff,

I'm not anti-union per se (although I was definitely anti Bob Crow), but this is very specifically the union holding the company to ransom at the expense of the passengers. The staff have been offered a good deal, repeatedly, but the union turns it down, then arrange strikes to cause maximum disruption - they moved a midweek strike to the weekend, to ensure it clashed with Lewes bonfire. They're now striking Christmas eve, and a full week strike w/c 9th January, to ensure everyone's back at work.

It's a total bit of a mess. For the reasons Ben outlines there's a degree of not really caring, because Govia aren't actually incentivised on their ability to run a railway, but I care, because day after ****ing day I'm hours late home because of it.

[img] [/img]

Twenty-two minutes late, badger ate a junction box at New Malden

Let me guess you hated Bob Crow because of where he lived and that he was very very good at his job.

Yes the passengers are paying the price, that is what happens when an employer won't negotiate and a union won't negotiate, both are in the wrong but now this dispute has a political aspect. Whose fault that is is open to discussion.

Union problems! Where's Thatcher when you need her?

The whole conductor thing is a sideshow.

Southern have failed to properly manage the service they're paid to provide for years.

Let me guess you hated Bob Crow because of where he lived and that he was very very good at his job.

Unusually, the rail workforce has a strong negotiating position and is making the most of it. Business people do it all the time, and are praised for their acumen. Funny how it only seems to be a problem when it's the lower orders...

Southern have failed to properly manage the service they're paid to provide for years.

If the problem was the staff then surely we'd have the same issues on all the other services running into London?

Let me guess you hated Bob Crow because of where he lived and that he was very very good at his job.

More because he talked constantly about the "fat cats" at the top of organisations being the scourge of society, whilst drawing a colossal salary. Odious little man.

Yes the passengers are paying the price, that is what happens when an employer won't negotiate and a union won't negotiate, both are in the wrong but now this dispute has a political aspect.

Except the employer are negotiating, staff have been offered bonuses, pay rises, guaranteed jobs for some years. The union just aren't receptive. That makes it the union's fault.

More because he talked constantly about the "fat cats" at the top of organisations being the scourge of society, whilst drawing a colossal salary. Odious little man.

Head of a large organisation and very good at his job, got the financial reward for that but hardly in the league of the fat cats. 😆 come on you can do better than that.

More because he talked constantly about the "fat cats" at the top of organisations being the scourge of society, whilst drawing a colossal salary. Odious little man.

The head of Southern gets paid 2 million a year. I'd say Bob was approximately 7,689,000 times better at his job than him. So logically, applying the rules of the corporate boardroom.... he should actually have been getting paid the same as the GDP of China

michaelbowden - Member
MTB-Idle - Member
I have the pleasure of being on Southern trains (Ewell East to London Bridge).
Small world 7.58?

Oh and why was the ticket office/waiting room closed & locked this morning?

I mainly cycle commute but if I'm not cycling (like yesterday and today when i'm out boozing in the evening) then I am usually on the 7-25 but have been known to get the 'lazy boy' 7-58 😉

The head of Southern gets paid 2 million a year. I'd say Bob was approximately 7,689,000 times better at his job than him. So logically, applying the rules of the corporate boardroom.... he should actually have been getting paid the same as the GDP of China

No, the head of GoAhead Group gets paid that, GoAhead is not Southern, which is simply an operating name of Govia Thameslink Railway. CBA getting into an ill informed debate about it. Surprised you're not just calling it British Rail for ease. I didn't like Bob Crow. I don't like some poeple on here. I don't like some people IRL.

I propose another Body other than Southern take the franchise, actively employ people from the EU, and if there is a shortfall in the meantime to run a full service then get the Forces involved to fill the gap.

Yes! Force immigrants to come here at gunpoint! Why did no-one think of that before 😆

jambalaya - Member
Privatising the railways would be a disaster.

Wouldn't want to be a rail commuter at the moment. It's fun when its working well, let alone when it's not

All my team are having train problems (I work in Central London)

Personally, I'm happy cycling in 10 miles. Tube is easy though and train is an option if I want it.

I think I'd be on my motorbike if I was in the position of a rail commuter coming in from the South

If Bob Crow's job was causing expense and distress to a majority in order to provide privilege to a minority who would conveniently then ensure his own privilege, then yes, he was good at his job.

Mind you, that iceberg was good at its job of "sinking the Titanic", it shouldn't be lauded for it.

One of our riding buddies has missed nearly every Tuesday ride since spring.

The horror.

I don't call that a horror.

I call that the unions using the paying public as pawns.

Oh the horror, I was late for work so many times when it was Jimmy Knapp at the helm, that I got an official sit down with the boss to resolve the issue. Call it a warning if you like, but it would never have stood as such in a tribunal. But it should not affect me on an ongoing basis if Messrs Knapp, Crow, et al can't agree a deal.

I would like to think the late Mr Knapp, for making me see the light, and realise that the car is the transport of the future. Thankyou. A grand or so less towards the budget that might have been used for his members' salaries.

I didn't like Bob Crow. I don't like some poeple on here. I don't like some people IRL.

You surprise me, as generally you come across as a little ray of sunshine

If Bob Crow's job was causing expense and distress to a majority in order to provide privilege to a minority who would conveniently then ensure his own privilege, then yes, he was good at his job.

His job was to negotiate the best deal on behalf of his members. Seemed to me like he was ****ing good at it. As attested to by the foaming-at-the-mouth indignation he elicits in the usual tedious 'get the immigrants in and pay them minimum wage, and stop paying anyone benefits, as they're not hard working, supremely talented geniuses like myself' crowd on here 😆

...and I know gloating isn't a particularly attractive character trait, and I should feel some type of empathy for my fellow man, struggling with his burden of an inefficient train service in to London, and the other endless miseries he has to endure, but heres a picture I took on my commute yesterday morning....

[img] [/img]

and heres one I took on the way home...

[img] [/img]

I suppose if you're going to be one of them dead dead important 'Master of the Universe' types, and the world would stop turning if you failed to show up at the office, then I suppose we should all be eternally grateful to you for keeping the countries economy afloat while us layabouts swan around taking photo's of the ruggedly beautiful landscapes we live in, and stuff. So thanks, and all that. You're a ledge 😀

inefficient train service in to London

Some stunning views on my commute too thanks, coupled with a superior life expectancy, lower crime, better job prospects and so on.

We know how to use apostrophe's too.

[i]Where [/i]the shit service is is pretty immaterial, but don't let that get in the way of you being a **** eh? I imagine there would be similar uproar if it was Manchester to Leeds which was disrupted, and nothing of any importance happens up there.

*doffs cap*

[img] [/img]

I imagine there would be similar uproar if it was Manchester to Leeds which was disrupted, and nothing of any importance happens up there.

You've seen our trains up here, right?

[img] [/img]

Our rail network up here gets that 5 quid a year spent on it whether it needs it or not 😆

maybe its just a case of us checking our whiney sense of self-entitlement and just getting on with it eh? Knowing our place 'n all that

*doffs cap again*

Pacers - made from bits of old bus, fact!

I'm glad you've recognised my superior status though, peasant.