[Closed] Merry Christmas from Southern

So there!

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=AVFseDkyHiVYcrTTtV0giuS6sxsGCJPjfHewHmdfFPdw4Un1INZm2PNWtoAbkZZi[/img]

Well that's told me 😆 😆

@waswas that could be a photo of any commuter train, south west etc. Full and standing only is normal on a Guildford/Waterloo service for which you pay around £750 a month inc parking

Rail franchises involve bidding to provide the service at the lowest cost. Southern have clearly underbid imo plus they have union issues. It's beyond the point of no return and they should just hand it back to government for re-tender

Privatising the railways would be a disaster. The service was rubbish before with massive underinvestment from governments over decades.

I didn't vote for Brexshite and I do not support any of thier "key" values.

With this in mind, Southern Rail should invoke a 3 strikes and you are sacked mentality. If employees fail to turn up for work 3 times you are sacked. I have no reason to think that this strategy is unreasonable, it's used throughout my industry to great effect. You'll find that this focuses the mind and wallet. I then realise that this will have a knock effect to those, sacked such as a delay before claiming benefits, tough shite.
Then I propose another Body other than Southern take on the franchise, actively employ people from the EU, and if there is a shortfall in the meantime to run a full service then get the Forces involved to fill the gap. By all means open out the vacencies the current Southern employees, but issue a no Union membership rule.

This is a national tragedy, and should be dealt with as such.

It's typical of Brexshiteers to try and return this country back to the 1970's, we should stand against this with force and intellect.

This does seem to reinforce the appearance that the last thing that Southern Rail are actually bothered about is trains, and having them provide a service for getting people from one place to another.

Rail franchises involve bidding to provide the service at the lowest cost. Southern have clearly underbid imo plus they have union issues. It's beyond the point of no return and they should just hand it back to government for re-tender

As far as I understand it (and I've got work to do, so don't have the time to look up all the detail), Southern are on a completely different deal to every other franchise holder. The rough idea is that the government pay them to run a service as detailed in the timetable published. It doesn't actually matter what trains do or don't run, that wil not affect what Southern are paid. they also don't get to keep any ticket revenues. There is basically no incentive for them to actually operate a railway. They know they will not likely get the franchise renewed, so the less outgoings they have (like not having to pay striking workers) the better the bottom line! Genious!

I really don't get the anti union stuff,

How about this scenario, Southern get the no union rule as outlined by bikebuoy, what is to stop them saying ok everyone gets a 20% pay cut and has to work 60 hrs a week. Who is there to stand up for the workers and say no you can't treat people like that.

I understand that unions in the 70's and 80's went to far in many cases. But employees need to have some protection against awful employers.

A lot of complete misunderstandings about how the rail network is run here (though a few do get it).

As said, the staff that do the day to day running are the same regardless of who is in charge so stripping franchises does nothing to address the underlying problems. Also, network rail arent reknown for their cooperation with train companies so that maintenance and such is performed on time and at mutually convenient times. You also get issues where train operators have to share track, some services get priority meaning that a slightly late service can face a long wait for a priority service to overtake which may be late itself. Lastly, timetabling is rarely if ever set by the franchisee, up here its Transport Scotland so down there I'd imagine it will be the DoT and possibly TFL (which could introduce more problems with two timetables running across each other).

FWIW the safety concerns are all bull IMO. We've had conductorless electric trains up here for years, since the 80's actually and been happily getting on with life whilst you lot were still falling out slam shuts or taking out platforms full of folk with them.I'm not sure what a conductor would have done to prevent the example either, walk the length of the train at every station to check the doors are shut?

Bikebouy - not sure it youre trolling badly or not. You cant take away peoples rights to union membership nor sack them for taking legal industrial action. I'd also be very surprised if any squaddies could even drive a train let alone competently. Not sure what your industry is but I'd frankly want nothing to do with any company that tried that sort of crap.

what is to stop them saying ok everyone gets a 20% pay cut and has to work 60 hrs a week

I'd say the European Working time directive for the hours, but......

Exactly 😆

Or go the Ryanair route.

Don't employ drivers, guards and ticket collectors directly but employ a number of agencies that provide drivers, guards and ticket collectors as part of a service contract. If service provider A can't provide the service, then service provider B gets to fill a position instead.

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You also get issues where train operators have to share track, some services get priority meaning that a slightly late service can face a long wait for a priority service to overtake which may be late itself. Lastly, timetabling is rarely if ever set by the franchisee, up here its Transport Scotland so down there I'd imagine it will be the DoT and possibly TFL (which could introduce more problems with two timetables running across each other).

All the same TOC now, they amalgamated it in their wisdom as the first of the new "super franchises", as Ben_mw says.

I really don't get the anti union stuff,

I'm not anti-union per se (although I was definitely anti Bob Crow), but this is very specifically the union holding the company to ransom at the expense of the passengers. The staff have been offered a good deal, repeatedly, but the union turns it down, then arrange strikes to cause maximum disruption - they moved a midweek strike to the weekend, to ensure it clashed with Lewes bonfire. They're now striking Christmas eve, and a full week strike w/c 9th January, to ensure everyone's back at work.

It's a total bit of a mess. For the reasons Ben outlines there's a degree of not really caring, because Govia aren't actually incentivised on their ability to run a railway, but I care, because day after ****ing day I'm hours late home because of it.

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Twenty-two minutes late, badger ate a junction box at New Malden

Let me guess you hated Bob Crow because of where he lived and that he was very very good at his job.

Yes the passengers are paying the price, that is what happens when an employer won't negotiate and a union won't negotiate, both are in the wrong but now this dispute has a political aspect. Whose fault that is is open to discussion.

Union problems! Where's Thatcher when you need her?

The whole conductor thing is a sideshow.

Southern have failed to properly manage the service they're paid to provide for years.

Let me guess you hated Bob Crow because of where he lived and that he was very very good at his job.

Unusually, the rail workforce has a strong negotiating position and is making the most of it. Business people do it all the time, and are praised for their acumen. Funny how it only seems to be a problem when it's the lower orders...

Southern have failed to properly manage the service they're paid to provide for years.

If the problem was the staff then surely we'd have the same issues on all the other services running into London?

Let me guess you hated Bob Crow because of where he lived and that he was very very good at his job.

More because he talked constantly about the "fat cats" at the top of organisations being the scourge of society, whilst drawing a colossal salary. Odious little man.

Yes the passengers are paying the price, that is what happens when an employer won't negotiate and a union won't negotiate, both are in the wrong but now this dispute has a political aspect.

Except the employer are negotiating, staff have been offered bonuses, pay rises, guaranteed jobs for some years. The union just aren't receptive. That makes it the union's fault.

More because he talked constantly about the "fat cats" at the top of organisations being the scourge of society, whilst drawing a colossal salary. Odious little man.

Head of a large organisation and very good at his job, got the financial reward for that but hardly in the league of the fat cats. 😆 come on you can do better than that.

More because he talked constantly about the "fat cats" at the top of organisations being the scourge of society, whilst drawing a colossal salary. Odious little man.

The head of Southern gets paid 2 million a year. I'd say Bob was approximately 7,689,000 times better at his job than him. So logically, applying the rules of the corporate boardroom.... he should actually have been getting paid the same as the GDP of China

michaelbowden - Member
MTB-Idle - Member
I have the pleasure of being on Southern trains (Ewell East to London Bridge).
Small world 7.58?

Oh and why was the ticket office/waiting room closed & locked this morning?

I mainly cycle commute but if I'm not cycling (like yesterday and today when i'm out boozing in the evening) then I am usually on the 7-25 but have been known to get the 'lazy boy' 7-58 😉

The head of Southern gets paid 2 million a year. I'd say Bob was approximately 7,689,000 times better at his job than him. So logically, applying the rules of the corporate boardroom.... he should actually have been getting paid the same as the GDP of China

No, the head of GoAhead Group gets paid that, GoAhead is not Southern, which is simply an operating name of Govia Thameslink Railway. CBA getting into an ill informed debate about it. Surprised you're not just calling it British Rail for ease. I didn't like Bob Crow. I don't like some poeple on here. I don't like some people IRL.

I propose another Body other than Southern take the franchise, actively employ people from the EU, and if there is a shortfall in the meantime to run a full service then get the Forces involved to fill the gap.

Yes! Force immigrants to come here at gunpoint! Why did no-one think of that before 😆

jambalaya - Member
Privatising the railways would be a disaster.

Wouldn't want to be a rail commuter at the moment. It's fun when its working well, let alone when it's not

All my team are having train problems (I work in Central London)

Personally, I'm happy cycling in 10 miles. Tube is easy though and train is an option if I want it.

I think I'd be on my motorbike if I was in the position of a rail commuter coming in from the South

If Bob Crow's job was causing expense and distress to a majority in order to provide privilege to a minority who would conveniently then ensure his own privilege, then yes, he was good at his job.

Mind you, that iceberg was good at its job of "sinking the Titanic", it shouldn't be lauded for it.

One of our riding buddies has missed nearly every Tuesday ride since spring.

The horror.

I don't call that a horror.

I call that the unions using the paying public as pawns.

Oh the horror, I was late for work so many times when it was Jimmy Knapp at the helm, that I got an official sit down with the boss to resolve the issue. Call it a warning if you like, but it would never have stood as such in a tribunal. But it should not affect me on an ongoing basis if Messrs Knapp, Crow, et al can't agree a deal.

I would like to think the late Mr Knapp, for making me see the light, and realise that the car is the transport of the future. Thankyou. A grand or so less towards the budget that might have been used for his members' salaries.

I didn't like Bob Crow. I don't like some poeple on here. I don't like some people IRL.

You surprise me, as generally you come across as a little ray of sunshine

If Bob Crow's job was causing expense and distress to a majority in order to provide privilege to a minority who would conveniently then ensure his own privilege, then yes, he was good at his job.

His job was to negotiate the best deal on behalf of his members. Seemed to me like he was ****ing good at it. As attested to by the foaming-at-the-mouth indignation he elicits in the usual tedious 'get the immigrants in and pay them minimum wage, and stop paying anyone benefits, as they're not hard working, supremely talented geniuses like myself' crowd on here 😆

...and I know gloating isn't a particularly attractive character trait, and I should feel some type of empathy for my fellow man, struggling with his burden of an inefficient train service in to London, and the other endless miseries he has to endure, but heres a picture I took on my commute yesterday morning....

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and heres one I took on the way home...

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I suppose if you're going to be one of them dead dead important 'Master of the Universe' types, and the world would stop turning if you failed to show up at the office, then I suppose we should all be eternally grateful to you for keeping the countries economy afloat while us layabouts swan around taking photo's of the ruggedly beautiful landscapes we live in, and stuff. So thanks, and all that. You're a ledge 😀

inefficient train service in to London

Some stunning views on my commute too thanks, coupled with a superior life expectancy, lower crime, better job prospects and so on.

We know how to use apostrophe's too.

[i]Where [/i]the shit service is is pretty immaterial, but don't let that get in the way of you being a **** eh? I imagine there would be similar uproar if it was Manchester to Leeds which was disrupted, and nothing of any importance happens up there.

*doffs cap*

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I imagine there would be similar uproar if it was Manchester to Leeds which was disrupted, and nothing of any importance happens up there.

You've seen our trains up here, right?

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Our rail network up here gets that 5 quid a year spent on it whether it needs it or not 😆

maybe its just a case of us checking our whiney sense of self-entitlement and just getting on with it eh? Knowing our place 'n all that

*doffs cap again*

Pacers - made from bits of old bus, fact!

I'm glad you've recognised my superior status though, peasant.

On a serious note though, fun though this mutual abuse all is, it does raise a wry smile when we hear southerners bleating about their transport network. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/07/london-gets-24-times-as-much-infrastructure-north-east-england ]Given how much money it receives comparatively[/url].

You should try getting from Manchester to Sheffield, for example, using public transport, for 9 o clock one morning. Its an absolute joke!

The solution?

HS2 apparently.

i don't know what they're going to do once they get their superfast journey to manchester, if they need to get anywhere outside Manchester City Centre?

Its almost as if that's not really anyones concern, and nobody could care less, as long as everything is ok at the other end of the line

Leyland buses on train bogeys most certainly aren't or weren't unique to the North.
Twas weird being able to see in to the driver's cab, and watching him actually change gear on a train that I'd caught from one of the most Tory of southern towns.

Binners, you've always struck me as a decent sort, I'll er on giving you the benefit of the doubt and assume your tongue is firmly in your cheek.

It's beyond parody down here though. Just because we live in the South doesn't make us pariahs or stereotypes any more than you are if you live in the 'North'.

My friend commutes into London to work for the Government to try and make air quality better for all of su. The fact that he earns a 'Government' salary means he has to live miles away and commute. He never puts his kids to bed and doesn't get to ride off road with his mates any more. He frequently spends 2hrs+ stuck on freezing platforms and standing on crowded trains. I've moaned at him to change his job, but you know what, he believes in what he's doing to benefit others. There are thousands like him, I'm not entirely sure that schadenfreude really applies to people just trying to make a living. 😐

The knock on effect on the traffic is causing hours of delays for business and the subsequent pollution affects us all.

It's a disgusting miserable situation. I don't have Nick's (Njee) conviction of who is to blame but I totally 100% sympathise with his position. It's pathetic, utterly pathetic and really hope it gets sorted.

On a serious note though, fun though this mutual abuse all is, it does raise a wry smile when we hear southerners bleating about their transport network. Given how much money it receives comparatively.
You should try getting from Manchester to Sheffield, for example, using public transport, for 9 o clock one morning. Its an absolute joke!
The solution?
HS2 apparently.
i don't know what they're going to do once they get their superfast journey to manchester, if they need to get anywhere outside Manchester City Centre?

And that, there, is the crux of the issue Binners. You're right.

I catch the 7.13 train, which is booked to arrive into Victoria at 8.20, or connect to the 8.03 to London Bridge, for a similar arrival time. That should be plenty of time to get to offices just about anywhere in London for 9. This is, of course, a great service.

Coming home, I usually get the 17.48 or 18.03, which gets me home for 18.50 or 19.20 respectively. Again, good service, no massive issues.

That this is an issue at all is because that's not what we're getting. On Tuesday the 7.13 was cancelled, as was the 6.39 and the 7.33, the 7.49 was 25 minutes late. That means people who conceivably planned to be on the first of those trains and be in the office by 8.30, couldn't even get into London until 9.30. Whilst you can make jokes about people being so important they have to get in to the office etc etc, many employers (and I'm lucky mine aren't one of them) have an expectation their staff will be there at a certain time. It's the unpredictability which is so frustrating.

Actually when Southern are on strike there's a marked improvement in the service. It's heavily reduced, but they run what they say they'll run, when they say they'll run it.

To your Manchester - Sheffield journey, the 07.08 arrives in Sheffield at 08.32, the 7.20 arrives at 8.10, or the 7.38 arrives at 8.34. That's more trains than I have.

binners - Member

His job was to negotiate the best deal on behalf of his members.

At the cost of the aforementioned, which you gloss over.
Amazing how selfish self professed "lefties" often are.

Ps. I walk to work. 😀

That's more trains than I have.

Yeah but no-one cares because you're commuting into London, so by default you must be some kind of ****.

I think that's how it works. 😉

I think what we'd all agree on then is that, given the state of the countries transport infrastructure, spaffing 55 billion quid (probably a lot more) on a whizzy train from Manchester to London, and the sum total of **** all on anything else represents a pretty... erm.... 'interesting' set of priorities

Its almost as if they were only listening to a bunch of self-interested consultants

think what we'd all agree on then is that, given the state of the countries transport infrastructure, spaffing 55 billion quid on a whizzy train from Manchester to London, and the sum total of **** all on anything else represents a pretty... erm.... 'interesting' set of priorities

Well, no. High speed rail is mainly about capacity, which is sorely lacking on the west coast main line, and HS2 is a very viable solution to that. GTR's issues won't be sorted by investment, the two are mutually exclusive.

whizzy train from Manchester to London

like that one from Stockport to Stalybridge?

How are all the Londoners going to get to the likes of media city as stuff is gradually relocated?

sum total of **** all on anything else

So, an underfunded, I'll equipped mess of a service.
Unaccountable, overcomplicated and riddled with poor management and unnecessary bureaucracy.

And you lot are blaming the union?
Absolute genius.

How about blaming those responsible for the mess in the first place?
But I imagine you voted for them, so it must be someone else's fault, right?