[Closed] 'kin dog

AA

If a cow wants to chase your dog? Geez so you would happily let your dog in a field of cows to be chased, potentially shot by a farmer??????

As Tandemjeremy comments is correct that you can release the dog to distract the cattle. However IF you were in proper control that should not arise.

Cross fields of cattle but always give them a wide berth. A little common sense goes along way sometimes.

you are right about the cattle tho - again the guidance is that if yoau re with a dog and the cattle charge you let teh dog off the lead so it can runn off and draw the cattle away

but is it a law 😆

pingu...ever worked on a farm? Cows move you know so giving them a wide berth doesnt help

AA - I have extensively quoted the law.

Yeah TJ's law, not the law in the real world.

I have only ever seen you quote guidelines. This is where your total lack of any legal qualification or experience shows up as you do not know the difference.

In RichC's case the owner was a moron, wether it was a footpath or not if RichC was wrong not controlling your dogs is stupidity

Not me that almost fell off due to a walker not controlling their dog, actually what was described wasn't a case of the owner not controlling their pet but more a total disregard to anyone else. Its not the dogs fault its owner is a numpty.

The previous comment is correct that you can release the dog to distract the cattle. However IF you were in proper control that should not arise.

Hang on a minute, how can it be your fault that you are chased by some farmers cows? If anything the farmer is on dodgy ground as they aren't allowed to obstruct footpaths.

Doubt that "obstructing footpaths" would stand up RichC not with landowners who traditionally wrote the laws unfortunately! Not the meek and humble who can only enjoy it occasionally with all accusations of tresspass and rights of way, and I agree the dog owner you encountered was numpty.

AA not sure that having worked on a farm or not doesn't qualify me to sy "give a wide berth", probably because I have not worked on a farm I would have my dog under control and give the cattle a wide berth and never had an incident, and indeed not been trampled, simples.

Just saying common sense.

Facts

Most dog owners are inept at best.

Theres always a risk and if dog owners knew their animals better there would be fewer issues.

As a cyclist slow down a little when passing dogs and give the owner time if necessary to recall their dogs.

We are getting far to hung up on scenarios here, accidents and unforseen situations can arise but its rarely if ever a dogs fault usually the owners.

How many dogs do you still see out without owners, far too many. Unfortuantely the law of the land has to try to be a catch all for many situations which it simply cannot forsee every eventuality.

We are described as a nation of animal lovers but if you loved your animal you would be able to handle them and understand their needs and driving forces. I work really hard with my dogs from integrating them with and getting used to people, exposing them to unfamiliar surroundings, understanding them. I am far from the best and make mistakes that I learn from but the standard of dog ownership is far too low in this country.

As a cyclist slow down a little when passing dogs and give the owner time if necessary to recall their dogs.

Pingu glad you have never had an incident a.d hope you never do. You do however show a somewhat i dont know nieve or something understanding of cattle.

I do think its important to get this stuff right - if one wants dog owners to control their dogs its important to know their responsibilities

However, if cattle or horses chase you and your dog, it is safer to let your dog off the lead – don’t risk getting hurt by trying to protect it. Your dog will be much safer if you let it run away from a farm animal in these circumstances and so will you.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/countrysidecode/keepdogs.aspx

Also

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command

Now you will claim this is just guidance - however under the law ( aminals act and various other bits of legislation and civil / case law) you ard judged on a whether you have taken reasonable precautions. Waht is reasonable is ultimately decided buy a jury but if you are withing the code or guidance then yoaure behaving in a rasonable manner.

Its not rocket science - all I want is to go about my business without being bothered by your dog and that is my right as it it your duty to ensure it happens.

Now you will claim this is just guidance - however under the law ( aminals act and various other bits of legislation and civil / case law)

can you post these laws rather than your guidlines. These are clearly bollocks

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people

My dog regularly kills rabbits this is not illegal.

keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command

Yes I do jave a niaive view of cattle hence giving them a wide berth, similarly you have a niaive view of dog ownership or people in general perhaps. I live in a city and enjoy the country and try to respect the countryside. So dont interact with cattle that often. Maybe you interact with them a whole lot more in significantly different ways, I don't know. However I do think that I am entitled to a vieewpoint.

Oh and I am still awaiting your statistics on the numbers of dog owners trampled by cattle to substantiate the "significant" numbers you speak of. As above I found three and there are factors there that indicate each may have been prevented.

Unfortunately should we therefore not destroy all cattle as they constitute a dangerous rampaging mass hell bent on trampling innocent walkers, indeed even rampaging through cities after escaping their abductors, hell bent on revenge for us eating them.

Or should we hold farmers accountable for not being in proper control of their cattle. Get real.

Don

What I mean is exactly as you say almost, be able to control your dog at a distance wether its recall down, stay etc just so it does not present a danger, even as an obstacle never mind attcking or scaring. Be aware of others. I keep mine in sight, within reason, they disappear in the woods but return etc, not let out on th estreet and called in at dark.

If theres a cyclist or anyone its assess what will happen. Is my dog likely tp run after him, no, is he likely to walk across his path, possibly get him to stop and stay. Is he going to jump on someone, geez I hope not, shouldn't etc etc so beeter to have control as you say either at a distance, always more difficult and I must say took me ages to get that working.

Most owners cant be arsed with the effort lets be honest.

AA - I have done so on many occasions and I have clearly explained the legal basis.

What exactly do those statements mean?

Let me just say rock shox revelations work just as well on dogs as rocks

20,000 posties have been bitten by dogs over the last 5 years according to a Communication Workers Union rep this morning on the radio.

Seems that it is not only cyclists who have run-ins with dogs.

So dont interact with cattle that often.

clearly

AA how many people on here "regularly" interact with cattle. Besides a good steak.

Exactly where are your figures. Exactly no point at all.

I think if you look at the advice on the links provided by TJ you will see some sensible advice. Cows are far more likely to have a go at dogs than the otherway round. The links you posted hsve a lot of words such as "may have" at key points that somewhat undermine your theories. My dog is not going to chase cows in fact they scare her shitless. If a cow wants to have a go at her i dont eant her being attached to me or risk running about with her lead attached.

AA how many people on here "regularly" interact with cattle.

*Raises hand*
[whisper]pingu66, you do realise that you can't comment on subjects you don't have first had experience of and definitely can't comment if a_a feels he has more experience, don't you? It's the STW way.[/whisper]

don simon - Member

What exactly do those statements mean?

TJ, can you just answer the question, please?

its clear and obvious. It means what it says.

Its a summary of your obligations and some guidance how to meet them.

its clear and obvious. It means what it says.

Ah I see thanks Don.

Didn't realise. Can't say I will reach out and start "interacting" with cattle in new ways, as I am unaware of the culture my advances may appear clumbsy. I'll let AA have all the fun in the fields.

All in all I try really hard and work with my dogs to avoid them being a nuisance. Unfortunately many if not most dog owners don't do the same. I personally would be gutted if my dogs caused injury to anyone who was equally acting sensibly. Even if they were not being sensible I would try my best to ensure my dogs were not in that environment or removed from that danger.

Additionally should my dogs cause injury or damage to anyone they are fully and comprehensively insured. Part of that insurance is that they are not and never have been aggressive. If they ever were I can assure people here that it would be remedied as much as that in itself may ultimately cause me a great deal of distress. Part of my comittment is to the breed that I have and support.

Cattle sorry I will bounce any questions to AA. Unless its how to cook one, I can manage that.

Unless its how to cook one, I can manage that.

So pingu you are happy to tell me I'm wrong despite you saying you have little experience of cattle whilst i have much more? Good, hope you are aleays so surd of yourself.

Waht havent I answered Don - I don't read most of your posts I must admit.

Yes a dog can be under control at a distance

Your interpretation of the code. "It's perfectly clear" is not an answer.
Am I not allowed to make the judgement as to whether my dog is under control?

*woof!*

Sorry AA I pointed out the following

That the three people trampled by dogs in three years does NOT constitute significant numbers.

That each of these incidents had a factor triggered by the dog.

That you still have not given figures

That yes you are wrong if you advocate the "average" dog owner lets their dog run around cattle.

In fact your a muppet.

Am I not allowed to make the judgement as to whether my dog is under control?

Ultimately it would be a jury on the evidence. However its simply obvious if a dog is under control. thts what that definition and similar ones are for. there is no room for interpretation - it is either under control or it is not.

there is no room for interpretation - it is either under control or it is not.

Irrelevant

Good work pingu, you clearly are an expert on cattle and i am so sorry to have ventured an opinion that differs from yours which has clearly been built on years of experience living in a town and not interactinv with cattle much. You are a very well informed young man, congratulations.

In a conversation that's trying to determine the ability to read a dog's body language and the fact that you say it's obvious whether a dog is under control or not, when presented with a picture to support your very own argument, your response is "irrelevant".
Not so obvious to understand whether a dog is under control or not, is it?

We are not talking about cattle you fool we are talking about dogs! You made statements about cattle you are unable to substantiate.

My experience with my own dogs is what I put here and as far as I know and understand dog ownership. Continue with your farm dog, congrats a dog doing what it was designed for.

However allowing your "pet" dog to run around wild farm animals is a no no in every situation. Unless you are fleeing savage cattle which from the three samples earlier could have been [prevented by controlling their dogs.

Similarly with horses, I meet many many horses where I walk and cycle and treet them the same as every other animal. With respect, not invading its space nor allowing my animals to invade its space or harass it.

As you are a farmer, if you saw a dog running rampant through your cows you would probably shoot it and fair play. Most owners are not farmers with dogs used to cattle etc therefore they should not be running around fields full of cattle. Get real and stop being so bloody stupid.

Don - the dogs "body language" is irrelevant - its its actions that count.

If we refer to the OP he was bitten by a labrador, now not a cow, and I have owned labradors so feel I can comment. Its very unusual for a labrador to bite someone. Many dogs are more likely to bite than others. Labradors some of the most unlikely.

Any dog that chases a cyclist and bites them should be reported, or anyone else for that matter.

Dogs harassing, or bothering people should not happen. If people want to talk to me about my dogs when I am out they can but I dont let my dogs get in their faces.

We live in a shared space we need to be tollerant BUT there are standards that unfortunatly not everyone adheres to. Some indeed have a holier than though attitude that their dog, or bike or indeed themselves has a greater right than others. That will never change and very often its easier to turn the other cheek rather than try and educate others. As indeed they have lived most of their lives being muppets they will continue to do so. We unfortunately have to accept that.

If an animal is a menace or danger it should be destroyed. However there are exceptional circumstances to all situations and we can let the authorities decide on those situations.

So tell me from the actions of the dog in the picture, lunging dog baring teeth and snarling aggressive or not?
You can't, can you? All you can now do is squirm and play with words and look for a different argument to justify your position.

Don - can yo not understand - its irrelevant - the only thing that matters is is it under control IE is it obeying the commands of its owner.

Is a dog that is running loose, not bothering anyone, not disturbing wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people yet not coming on command. Is this animal in need of some kind of sanction?

can yo not understand

Body language is largely irrelevant as a dog will usually bark as it does not "generally" wish to bite. Again generally. Typically a dog will assume a territory or space. If it feels threatened it generally barks, growls etc. Most dog attacks "generally" however do not have this warning defence. Certainly being chased indicates that the person was not in the dogs space or territory. The dogs that simply bite, no posturing etc are dangerous as there are no precursors. Typically however the owner will have seen this behaviour before. I did actually own a very bad dof once and only ever walked it muzzled and on a lead. We had no history of the animal as it was a rescue but it was far too much of a risk to have it untethered or unmuzzled in public. It even scared the bejesus out of me on more than one occasion.

For the record it was almost definitly an abused family pet that the group I support were trying to a) train b)rehome. Unfortunatly neither was possible primarliy due to poor oownership. It was put down before it could do harm as it was simply far to big a liability for the charity.

TandemJeremy - Member
..... the only thing that matters is is it under control IE is it obeying the commands of its owner.

...what if the owners command is "get'im rover" - the dog obeys the command so is "under control"

Surely the only thing that matters if if the owners (in)attention results in physical (? or emotional) damage to another person

If the owner says "get him Rover" I would assume its a whole different ball game. Thats probaly assault, dogs destrotyed etc.

But there are idiots out there that do indeed do this.

You ideally want your dog to be passive, sniffing around the bushes running etc but when others are around under finer control.

When I take mine out they are generally in the back of the car to the forrest and I go to a quiet area to let them exercise. That takes the excitement out of them as most dogs seem to get excited about going for their walk. Its their playtime as it were.

We then put them on leads and walk through busier areas. You can spot alot even when a dog is on a lead, is it pulling, has the owner got control. Many times you see people being walked by their dogs.

has the owner got control.

I doubt that there is a definition of "control" its very subjective.

There is a perfectly good definition of control quoted above

keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command

This or very similar variants are used widely. Its really pretty simply. close control is different =- that is the dog must be at heel or on a short lead and is required when livestock are present or for some other specific occasions

I doubt that there is a definition of "control" its very subjective.

As you are a farmer, if you saw a dog running rampant through your cows you would probably shoot it and fair play. Most owners are not farmers with dogs used to cattle etc therefore they should not be running around fields full of cattle. Get real and stop being so bloody stupid.

not a farmer I'm a teacher, but I did grow up on a farm and have worked on a few. If a dog is running about a field of cows it could be shot but its highly unlikely as you wouldnt want to shoot your cows. Its the repeat offenders who the farmers shoot, because they are ready and waiting. Its actually pretty hard to shoot a dog with a shot gun, you have to be able to get pretty close. I've seen a dog worrying sheep if I had been trying to shoot it a few sheep would have coped it too. Got the dogs to chase it off in the end. Besides I never said I'd let my dog run around cattle I said I wouldnt put her on the lead around cattle. I believe Mr Blunkett had his dog a lead and look what happened to him. In the vast majority of cases dog and owner are at much greater risk than the cattle. You wont listen to me so never mind.

pingu66 - Member
If we refer to the OP he was bitten by a labrador, now not a cow, and I have owned labradors so feel I can comment. Its very unusual for a labrador to bite someone. Many dogs are more likely to bite than others. Labradors some of the most unlikely.

I remember reading a paper (so it may not be true) that the most likely dog to get bitten by in the UK was a chocolate Lab (taken from stats gathered from the national statistics office)

As for TJ's law it seems to deal in absolutes, whereas UK Law (as if he had any legal training or experience or had even spoken to a solicitor he would know this) you can't get the bastards to agree on anything and are about as far from absolute on specific piece of legislation as you can get.

I remember reading a paper (so it may not be true) that the most likely dog to get bitten by in the UK was a chocolate Lab (taken from stats gathered from the national statistics office)

one of the most common dogs so not suprising, I read a paper that suggested that Dachshund were the most aggressive breed
http://freedownload.is/pdf/breed-differences-in-canine-aggression-deborahl-duffya-yuying--2344290.html

So I have a question, if this determines in control

This means that you:
keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command

Under TJ's law, should all guide dogs for the blind be shot? As if they are let off the lead they are instantly out of the owners sight, hence out of control

just let the cows deal with them, like Blunketts dog!!

Labs! - I hate them. I'd rather face a pack of sneaky collies than a Lab with an attitude. As for getting bitten, remember you are the bigger dog - bite the b*^^r back