MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Spot on Big Bud, same shite, different faces.
hardly anything changes for the better .
Far be it from me to teach you to suck eggs, and I seem to be having this conversation more and more recently, but you do understand that a decade ago we spent all the money (and a damn sight more that we don't have to boot) we should've spent on doctors and schools and roads and all that other stuff, on bailing out the banks after they'd been massively and scandalously reckless: right?
we spent all the money (and a damn sight more that we don’t have to boot) we should’ve spent on doctors and schools and roads and all that other stuff,
This came up on STW a few weeks ago. To my surprise the Uk Govt profited from the baleouts. We were exposed to risk, but by the end the Govt ended up in profit.
It doesn’t mean that when you lose a vote you have to abandon all your principles.
Principles?
Jo Swinson happily rolled over (as did many LibDems) as soon as she got a sniff of power, when she helped enable the formation of the ruinous Con/Dem coalition.
At the very least, as a result of the LibDems actions, thousands of young voters became disillusioned with politics after their first 'go' at it.
She is as self-serving as any if the Tory MPs she jumped into bed with, and her voting record shows a remarkable degree of cognitive dissonance, given the the historic leanings of the party she now leads.
Jo Swinson happily rolled over (as did many LibDems) as soon as she got a sniff of power, when she helped enable the formation of the ruinous Con/Dem coalition.
What choice did they have? Refusing their one chance to be in Government in the last 90 years would have rendered them utterly pointless. Who's gonna vote for a party that won't govern? (Except ironically it turns out that being untainted by government was the thing that kept the votes coming in.)
Jo Swinson happily rolled over (as did many LibDems) as soon as she got a sniff of power
This absolutely. People often ask when the libdems will be forgiven for there dalliance with the devil? They'll be forgiven when all those who were instrumental in it are out of office and replaced by others who don't carry the stench of having collaborated with a tory government which went to war on the poor.
Jo Swinson was one of the main protagonists of the coalition and is one of those directly responsible for the huge numbers of homeless on our streets, those visiting foodbanks, the sick and disabled who are destitute, the young people saddled with debt, and those who now suffer the indignity of begging for minimum wage work from exploitative zero hour contract employers. I'd also say she shares a large responsibility for brexit. Had she and her colleagues done more to protect the millions persecuted by the tories austerity, many of them wouldn't have voted in the referendum the way they did.
Very well said dazh.
Seems like she needs the opportunity to put some of that right. The alternative is either a Labour, Tory, or brexit party brexit. All of which will leave us without a pot to piss in, and there certainly won't be any money around to help those people who clearly need it.
Sometimes you just have to move on and deal with what's in front of you...
What choice did they have?
How about sticking by the principles you seem to believe Swinson/The Lib Dems have?
If all she was/is interested in is power then she should stand by her voting record and performance when in coalition, resign the Lib Dem whip and cross the house to be with her kin.
Sometimes you just have to move on and deal with what’s in front of you…
Interesting that many seem happy to give the Lib Dems the benefit of the doubt, after their actions in enabling a ruinous policy of austerity just a few years ago, yet Labour still get lumbered with actions in the 1970s and those of Tony Blair...
yet Labour still get lumbered with actions in the 1970s and those of Tony Blair…
They don't, but they do get lumbered with the inactions of Jeremy Corbyn.
Ah, another disgusting display of toadyism towards her kin on the other side of the House by Swinson, in the seeming competition by some to blow smoke up Theresa May's backside.
Rather than congratulating her for being an extremely privileged white female, who managed to become PM in a vote featuring no alternatives, how about pulling her up for the ruinous policy of austerity which she presided over that has disproportionately affected females?
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/ENACARegion/Pages/GBIndex.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwjv8pD0x83jAhUOiVwKHQE1D_AQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0E1LN5iJFcLP2cTjezBNIR&cshid=156397152443 7" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">So says the UN
Ah but of course, Swinson would also be implicating herself, so pats on the back for Theresa it is.
Very happy with this:
BBC News - Brecon and Radnorshire by-election: Lib Dems beat Conservatives
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49200636
Interesting to see some Tory on the BBC complaining that they only won because they'd done a deal with other parties. Remind me again how the Tories are clinging to power?
I've just looked at her voting record! I wanted to vote LD next time and did at the last election, but I can't now. She really is a yellow Tory.
She voted with the coalition government a lot, didn’t she. Almost as if her party was part of it. Still, she’s been voting against Tory governments since, when others didn’t.
She voted with the coalition government a lot, didn’t she. Almost as if her party was part of it.
Almost like there was some sort of coalition agreement in place...
Almost like there was some sort of coalition agreement in place…
Unbelievable!!!!
Almost like there was some sort of coalition agreement in place…
Yeah, to hell with being an MP with principles. Just roll over and have your tummy tickled by the Tories to get a sniff of power.
The fact some of you seem happy to give Swinson and her ilk a pass for their behaviour whilst in bed with the Tories says a lot about yourselves really.
I'm not a huge fan of her but it's quite simple
Vote tory if you're a leaver
Vote Liberal democrat if you want to remain
Vote Labour to... Well who knows, sit on the fence?
Vote SNP if you're in Scotland.
Vote SNP if you’re in Scotland.
Or Green or Scottish Liberal...
If attila the stockbroker can countenance getting in to bed with the libdems to keep the tory brexit at bay then others might need to loosen their grip on their morals, tighten the grip on their nasal passages and follow suit.
She is my MP. I have voted for her before and not voted for her, and will have some thinking to do at the next (coming sooner rather than later) election.
Better a Tory coalition than a Tory majority or one enabled by the DUP, but I think the Lib Dems received an overlong and unfair kicking as if no other party ever failed on election promises and manifesto commitments. Maybe we just expect the Tories and Labour to do that, so it hurt more when Nick did it. Coalition meant compromise and I suspect they realise now that they compromised too much on the wrong things.
This thread would suggest that Labour has always placed principles over a taste for ministerial cars or seats in the House of Lords, but I would not be too sure about that.
Coalition meant compromise and I suspect they realise now that they compromised too much on the wrong things.
Mitigation, to be sure. What about her voting record since leaving government?
Matt Thomas #JC4PM
A Swinsonista suggested that I shouldn't criticise Jo Swinson voting for Tory austerity 849 times between 2010-2015 because she was part of a coalition.Just to add, she also voted in line with the Tory whip 617 times between 2005-2010 when she wasn't in a coalition.
Or in other words, she voted, while a member of an opposition party, against the government. Which between 2005 and 2010 would have been the Blair/Brown government. I am curious as to how often well known loyal member of the parliamentary Labour party Jeremy Corbyn also voted against the government (AKA voted in line with the Tory whip) during that time?
but I think the Lib Dems received an overlong and unfair kicking as if no other party ever failed on election promises and manifesto commitments.
It is quite weird the level of vitriol that has been aimed at the Lib Dems. Not sure if they are definitely the bad guys to be honest!
Jeremy Corbyn also voted against the government (AKA voted in line with the Tory whip) during that time?
1983: 19 – which made him the 8<sup>th</sup> most rebellious Labour MP
1987: 36 – 7<sup>th</sup> most rebellious Labour MP
1992: 72 – 3<sup>rd</sup> most rebellious Labour MP
1997: 64 – the most rebellious Labour MP
2001: 148 – the most rebellious Labour MP
2005: 216 – the most rebellious Labour MP
2010: 62 – 3<sup>rd</sup> most rebellious Labour MP
At least she is opposing the Tories right now.
When Labour decide they would like to oppose then perhaps we can revisit this.
I have generally been a lib Dems voter but given they enabled Cameron and Osborne austerity which Swinson was part of I cannot vote for her.
She will come out with the old we had to the previous labour government had killed the economy blah blah.
Utter tosh private banks caused the problem and austerity was a ideological choice which the libs seemed to sell their soul and support for that sniff of power.
As I get older I have started to question what kind of country we have become where is the compassion and drive for a fair society? It worries me what future my daughter will face with a country which seems to help the rich and allows more and more children to live in poverty.
Always thought the lib Dems wanted that but clearly when the time came they failed to step up, sometimes wonder what would have been if they went in with Brown rather than Cameron (was never going to happen as clegg was an old school chum)?
Better a Tory coalition than a Tory majority or one enabled by the DUP, but I think the Lib Dems received an overlong and unfair kicking as if no other party ever failed on election promises and manifesto commitments.
Those weren't the only options.
In 2010 without the support of the Lib Dems the Tories would likely only have been able to form a minority government, even if they had the backing of the DUP. Only having a minority means that its unlikely the Tories would have been able to get their ruinous policy of austerity through the house and at worst would have been a place holder government and at best would likely have had to either declare another General Election or concede to a potential Labour-centric coalition.
The Lib Dems rightly took a kicking for not only reneging on one of their fundamental policies (tuition fees), after charming young voters to back them, but also for their part in not just enabling the Tories but also for actively partaking in the implementation of policies that have targeted the young, females, the disabled and the poor the most.
This continued attempt to excuse the actions of Swinson et al because they were in a coalition is sickening. It was a coalition they chose to be in and, truth be told, they had the upper hand, given that withdrawing from the coalition would have nullified the Tories ability to cause so much damage.
The Lib Dems threw any principles they had to the wind in desperation to stay in government and for that they (and any of their MPs who took an active role in that coalition of wanton destruction) should rightly be condemned.
Sootyandjim
100% agree
Come on sooty, don't be like that, it was a long time ago and now they want to rescue the same people they ****ed over by rescuing them from something that they had an integral part in enabling.
Keep looking behind and ignore what is in front of you 🙄
Keep looking behind and ignore what is in front of you
Or fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
Tell that to Boris and his gang. They are going to fool you big time. Labour are nowhere to be seen. 5% in a by-election!!!
At least green and Welsh party saw sense.
Honestly I think the lib dems were simply out of their depth in the coalition
The trade offs they made with hindsight were often wrong for example in exchange for the 5plastic bag charge they backed the changes to benefit sanctions, even tho the bag charge has been a great success was it worth the harm done to those on benefits?
But these were the realities they faced, yes they wanted power, it's the only way to get things done & maybe if they'd got their change to fptp & hol reform, we'd be in a different place now.
Without them in coalition would we have had same sex marriage bill, pupil premium, free school lunches, 15 hrs childcare, banking levy, raising income tax tnreshold, also blocked Tories fire at will law, Cameron had pledged in his manifesto to scrap the human rights act, but Clegg blocked this a condition of coalion, also blocked snoopers charter.
Does that wipe out everything they helped the Tories do?
Nope, but a coalition necessitated concessions that's just how it works.the alternative is to be a party of permanent opposition (see corbyn- Childish to pretend the world is so simple)
Having just watched The Great Hack this whole 'let's hate the Lib Dems' phenomenon is making a lot more sense now
Ooohh elborate not seen the great hack
Tell that to Boris and his gang. They are going to fool you big time.
The only way they are going to fool me is by doing something useful for the country as a whole. Don't take my disdain for the Libdems and their leader as an endorsement of Boris and his gang.
That doesnt actually answer the question asked.
Rebelling against the Labour government doesnt mean voting with the tory opposition.
The actual figures when he voted against Labour but also against the tories is pretty low. Not nonexistent but certainly not what you show by those figures.
Wheres Swinson although not as orange book as Davies is, sadly, more tending that way than I would hope for a Lib dem leader so the blame the tories doesnt really work. They werent innocent victims of the torys but generally aligned at least economically.
Ooohh elborate not seen the great hack
Doesn't mention Lib Dems directly but it is about how our personal data has been pillaged to enable finely targetted social media campaigns that exacerbate existing social divisions, allowing the interested parties concerned to win elections. And, I suppose, one example that illustrates this recent polarisation is the anger directed towards centrist elements such as the Lib Dems, where previously the most damming criticism any one was prepared to level at them was 'well, they're just a bit too nice, aren't they?'
They had a choice which party they formed a coalition with in 2010 Nick Clegg chose the Tories even when the then labour government was a closer fit politically
That says everything we need to know about the current lib Dems.
Pupil premium, same sex marriage are all very amicable but surely these are all things a fair government should be doing.
I will counter the lib Dems argument of what they gave us with raised child poverty, increased food bank use, cut of sure start and general youth investment.
They chose to get into bed with the devil.
Pupil premium, same sex marriage are all very amicable but surely these are all things a fair government should be doing.
Haha have you met the Tories before? 😉
People are quick to also forget how many MPs the Liberal demacrats had in the coalition... Here's a clue...
The Cabinet was made up of sixteen Conservatives and five Liberal Democrats, with eight other Conservatives and one other Liberal Democrat attending cabinet but not members.
People are quick to also forget how many MPs the Liberal demacrats had in the coalition…
How many MPs the Lib Dems had in the cabinet is a red herring. Ultimately the Lib Dems had the whip hand over the Conservatives due to being able to make up the numbers to form a majority government.
Without the Lib Dems supporting the Conservatives the latter would have only been able to form a minority government. This would have placed a far greater restriction on the reckless and damaging plans of the Tories than the Lib Dems jumping into bed with them.
But Swinson et al were desperate to be relevant and obviously happy to become the Tories glove puppets.
Without the Lib Dems supporting the Conservatives the latter would have only been able to form a minority government. This would have placed a far greater restriction on the reckless and damaging plans of the Tories than the Lib Dems jumping into bed with them.
Or there'd have been another ge & Tories gained a majority, with no lib dem influence austerity could've been 10x worse...... Hypotheticals, eh 😉
#onelesstory
form a minority government
With Labour an accomplish nothing, or, as it panned out, they achieved something.
But Swinson et al were desperate to be relevant and obviously happy to become the Tories glove puppets.
Or knew that they'd get a bad rep but thought the slight influence they had could make a slight difference? Which it did at the time.
Blaming the libs for tory policy is a bit short sighted.
Ultimately the Lib Dems had the whip hand over the Conservatives due to being able to make up the numbers to form a majority government.
Wrong! This was actually done via the coalition agreement between the conservatives and LibDems that meant that there was a 5 year stable government, it prevented what happening now with the DUP's confidence and supply agreement that is propping up the current government where they actually can hold the government to ransom.
The difference is that the DUP is a NI party, its quite a different situation (how many Conservative/Labour/LibDems etc are there in NI? er...none: different parties there) and they can do deals that help them domestically. The downside of doing a confidence and supply deal in England, or indeed Wales and possibly Scotland is that you won't necessarily be able to get anything tangible for your voters. Being in government (ie in power) does mean that you can make a difference and try and achieve at least some of your agenda.
Sootyandjim et all, if you actually knew the details of the both the coalition negotiations in 2010 as well as how the LibDem party works (this agreement had to pass the triple lock that controls such negotiations for a hung parliament, like what Labour and Tories don't have...howeverif things continue the way they are they might just need to draft one..). The deal that was offered was significantly better that that from the Labour Party who really did want the Lib Dems to be their lap dog and help prop up both the losing party and Gordon Brown (That was a very short negotiation meeting BTW).
There was a global and national financial crisis, the country needed a stable government and for better or worse, the country got just that. If you want to see what happens when you dont have a stable government (or indeed a main opposition party) just looks back over the last 2 or 3 years.
Frankly all this "oooooh the coalition,. it was sooooo bad, it was going so well before they came along and everyone who was involved is evil and should be treated accordingly except for the junior partner who should be hung drawn and quartered then burned as they should have know better and if only they had been good little socialists who are all fluffy and cuddly and do nice things and are never, ever bad" talk is just tiresome.
Get over it.
😀
Get over it.
Spoken by someone who no doubt is the epitome of "I'm alright Jack, pull up the ladder".
As a white male with a profession, I personally suffered very little (compared to many others) through the financial vandalism enacted by the Tories and their Lib Dem lap dogs, but you know what? Some of us think about others and fight their corners.
I will never just "get over it". Austerity was and is an ideological attack on those at the opposite end of the spectrum from those who were to blame for the financial crash.
I expect Tories to be scum, it goes with the territory, but the Lib Dems sold a promise that they were somehow better. When their moment came though they decided to jump into bed with said scum.
I will never forgive the likes of Swinson for her actions and I view those who act as apologists for her conduct, such as yourself, with nothing but the contempt you too deserve.
Clearly, you're heavily invested in this sooty. Your rhetoric is exactly what puts people off the Momentum driven Labour party.
If you can't see that words like scum, contempt, apologist etc do nothing but build barriers, then you are also part of the reason why we can't have sensible, evidence based governance in this country. .
Wrong! This was actually done via the coalition agreement between the conservatives and LibDems that meant that there was a 5 year stable government,
Can you explain that? There was no party able to form a majority, the Lib Dems negotiated a deal. They weren't forced to, they were a part of the negotiations, they did in fact hold the whip hand because they had what the other two parties wanted. That they gave away their support for a weak deal is no one's fault but theirs. The mechanism of support may be different between them and the DUP but the outcome is the same.
And yes, I have read the agreement. That's not really the point though.
+1 to muddy@rsedguy
the libdems for all their faults are the largest 100% antibrexit party and to beat the tory brexit will mean working with them whatever you think of them and in my mind brexit is the biggest danger to this country and their population, posturing and ranting because of past failures is not going to help the situation.
If you can’t see that words like scum, contempt, apologist etc do nothing but build barriers, then you are also part of the reason why we can’t have sensible, evidence based governance in this country. .
Oh do leave off. Clegg was seduced by the leather in his ministerial Jag and was too stupid to see that he was there to be the fall guy. Charlie Kennedy was absolutely right.
the libdems for all their faults are the largest 100% antibrexit party
they would sigbn up to a "Norway Style" coalition faster than a fly on shit.... #youknowit #yellowtories #spineless
There is zero evidence the libdems would save us from brexit, but their past shows us they will fling away their so called principles for a sniff of power.
No point fighting the battles of five/ten years ago, which is all the Labour Party seem to be interested in at the moment.
We face a potential calamity at the hands of a far right Tory clique.
The Labour Party simply refuses to even engage with that on any meaningful level, never mind oppose it.
The Lib Dem’s seem keen to take pick up the baton and take the fight to the Tories to try and prevent this lunacy, while working in coalition with other parties to do so
That’s why I, after a lifetime of voting labour, put my cross in the Lib Dem box at the E.U. elections, like so many other disillusioned labour voters
If there was a general election tomorrow I’ll do the same, because Brexit is the only game in town right now, and it’s just a little bit important
So Swinson has ruled out any deal with labour or the SNP
Here is a bet for you. If there is any conceivable way the numbers stack up Swinson will take the lib dems back into coalition with the tories. Its obvious thats her preference.
She will sell all her principles ( not that I believe she has any) for another ministerial car.
So yhose of you voting lib dem will get the tory government you say you do not want.
They had a choice which party they formed a coalition with in 2010 Nick Clegg chose the Tories even when the then labour government was a closer fit politically
Actually that is wrong. A "rainbow" coalition was a non starter. The Lib dems choice was coalition with the tories, supply and confidence with the tories or leave the tories as a minority government. Parliamentary arithmetic meant that no coalition with labour was possible
Here is a bet for you. If there is any conceivable way the numbers stack up Swinson will take the lib dems back into coalition with the tories. Its obvious thats her preference.
How much you willing to place on that one TJ? I'm no gambling man but I'd be willing to bet otherwise 🤔
The Lib Dem’s seem keen to take pick up the baton and take the fight to the Tories to try and prevent this lunacy, while working in coalition with other parties to do so
That's not going to happen.
And when Brexit has happened (likely) which party is likely to pick up the pieces?
I know which parties I wouldn't want in charge.
Dicky boy - forfeit not cash! The numbers may not stack up that way but if its possible I bet she does
I can't see Lib-Dems in a coalition with the Tories.
It would be lunacy on their part. Their resurgence in the polls is purely based on a remain ticket, the fact their economic policy etc is closer to Tories doesn't matter.
Say they increased their number of seats to 20 and use this to prop up a Johnson led Tory govt who had delivered a no deal brexit it would be the end of their party. Just look what happened after last coalition with Tories and the student fee stuff, Brexit is hugely more serious and polarising.
In terms of Labour, they may not do a formal coalition but if Labour offer a 2 ref with remain v whatever on the ballot then LDs would look churlish not to support at least until after the vote.
LDs are opposing any talk of deal with Labour now to maximise their vote in the election
Old dog - the price for supporting a tory government would be Johnson goes and a second ref is my guess.( which the tories would do no issue to hang on to power) Then they will support the tories. If the numbers stack up that way.
Swinson is a proven liar, hypocrite and a carpetbagger and politically right wing
It all depends on numbers, doesn’t it. I suspect either Conservatives or Labour would get a confidence and supply deal from the LibDems, if they were the only ones with the numbers, if they offered a referendum with a Remain option. If the alternatives are a coalition with either of the current leaders as the much smaller party, or another immediate general election at a time of crisis and the economic damage coming from that, the LibDems would never recover.
The unlikely result of very large numbers of LibDem/Green/other MPs would change all that of course, but our system makes that very unlikely. Not impossible though, if the parties and voters become unexpectedly cunning.
There will be 40+ snp. Hopefully they make the few lib dems redundant
Dunno - comedy pic posted on here?
So people see Boris offering a 2nd ref with remain as an option.
Seems pretty unlikely that he would stand on that as a manifesto commitment and it would be a big swing from a No Deal out on 31 Oct position. He would lose lots of support and there would likely be the prospect of another GE as soon as 2nd Ref was done and LDs withdraw support either because can't support a Brexit Govt or to cash in on a remain win at 2nd ref.
Seems much more likely Labour/SNP supply and confidence plus LDs,green, PC if remain 2nd ref offer. I'm not a fan of Swinson but I can't see she would be stupid enough to abandon the only prospect of remain. As I said they will oppose Labour hard up to GE as that is where there is most to gain.
Seems pretty unlikely that he would stand on that as a manifesto commitment
Utterly impossible. But what deals get done to support a minority government are not restricted by manifestos. They can’t be. Compromises must be struck. And if Johnson’s team don’t have a majority after an election (and some way can be found to have stopped us leaving first 🤷🏻♂️ ) they will need to get support from other parties. The numbers might mean that DUP + Brexit “Party” are enough. They might need other parties. They might think that despite losing an election they can win a referendum (especially if BP votes were high in that election), in which case, promising a referendum they think they can win would make sense to avoid another snap election while we have no government and the markets are dumping the UK.
Next government (if not a majority) unlikely to get to 5 years whatever deals are done though.
I see Swinson making a second ref as her price for propping up the tories and Johnson agreeing as neither of them have any principles and will do anything for power.
I just hope Swinson loses her seat.
I can't see LD joint a Tory/Brexit/DUP alliance under any circumstances, certainly not suggesting that pre-election
Swinson needs to get used to answering the same Qs about who she would support post election if there either main party can't get a majority - she will risk sounding like a broken record.
will do anything for power
You are all for PR, but dead against parties working together and having to compromise, it seems.
That is not an equivalent.
Yes I like PR because it tends to force compromise and consensus. what I dislike is liars and those who will do and say anything to gain power. Clegg and co did not compromise at all - they enabled a punative tory government. Acheived nothing bar 10 000 deaths and impoverishment of millions.
Holyrood has not quite worked as intended because of labours disgusting attitude but it works far better than Westminster. We have had labour / Lib dem coalitions where the lib dems actually acheived a great deal. We have had minority governments where the biggest party has had to negotiate to get their policies thru
We have never had a situation like Cleggs coalition where they simply gave away power for nothing.