nobeer
still engaging with the facts people in the traditional way I see?
Yup, you know me mate! Sorry for the delay though, I was posting on a bike thread. You should try it! 🤣
oops .. double post
bike
a vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.
Interesting concept.
How did it vote?
Seems to me like a very classic lib dem approach- paint a vague picture of a sunny happy liberal future, fight everything entirely on brexit, please ignore the fact that our new leader was pro austerity and especially in favour of the harshest elements of austerity- pro bedroom tax, against raising benefits in line with the cost of living, voted to push support for the disabled onto underfunded councils without providing any additional funding, backed the public sector pay cap, wanted to increase VAT but cut corporation tax and opposed an increase in top level income tax, voted to restrict legal aid, opposed the increase of the minimum wage and was a cheerleader for zero hours contracts, supported the part-privatisation of the NHS, supported academisation of schools and the increase of university tuition fees (1) while voting to remove financial support for young people in training and college, flipflopped on climate change (publically makes the right noises but votes for fracking and cutting renewables funding), voted to sell the nationally owned forests and the post office...
(1) however you feel about promises etc, the rise of tuition fees to £9000 was financially disastrous- it literally costs the taxpayer money, because the repayment rate is so low that we will actually recoup less of the amount loaned than we did under the old regime. It was literally just a way of hiding a huge chunk of the national debt for a couple of decades by inflicting it on teenagers instead.
But yeah, brexit. Luckily her record and the general direction of the party doesn't really matter because nobody's going to be talking about anything else in the next general election
I bet 10 scottish pence she loses her seat in the next election though, just like she did in 2015, which is going to be hilarious.
Dickyboy
Subscriber
she is leader of the libdems so I doubt members would allow her to go full tory,
Based on the evidence of the one other time it happened?
wanted to increase VAT but cut corporation tax and opposed an increase in top level income tax, voted to restrict legal aid,
Seems sensible to me. Keep in the revenue sweet spot on the laffer curve. VAT is tricky to avoid and it's essential to have competitive tax rates to keep revenues up.
and was a cheerleader for zero hours contracts,
If zero hours contracts should be banned, what should the new minimum limit be? 1 hour PCM? 4 hours PCM? 8 hours PCM? Would you ban all part time work and have a 38hr minimum contract?
No, zero hours contracts have their place (I manage a team of 200 students on zero hours contracts, it's the only way it could possibly work). But Swinson has declared their 300% rise in the last 5 years as a great thing for workers and a success for the british economy. Talking about "banning" is just a silly straw man when we're talking about someone that champions them.
Also, isn't it strange that the only people that ever mention the laffer curve, are always claiming that any increase would take it to the point of diminishing returns? What are the odds of that, that we're right now at the "sweet spot"? And why is it that the UK's "sweet spot" is so low, and falling? When the cut to 17% goes ahead we'll have the 5th lowest corporation tax rate in the OECD and the second lowest combined corporation tax, compared to the average of 22% never mind the european average of 25%. We were already the lowest in the G7, but now we'll be the lowererest which is obviously even better.
If we really were at or near the laffer point, then Osborne (and Swinson's) cut to 17% wouldn't be costing us £6bn per year. But apparently we need to do that to stay on par with our nearest competitor, Slovenia.
So here's a thought. How amusing would it be if in the next GE all the party leaders lost their seats?
No, zero hours contracts have their place (I manage a team of 200 students on zero hours contracts, it’s the only way it could possibly work). But Swinson has declared their 300% rise in the last 5 years as a great thing for workers and a success for the british economy. Talking about “banning” is just a silly straw man when we’re talking about someone that champions them.
So she's in favour of something essential that you're in favour of. Just a fraction more favour of it than you!
Also, isn’t it strange that the only people that ever mention the laffer curve, are always claiming that any increase would take it to the point of diminishing returns? What are the odds of that, that we’re right now at the “sweet spot”?
I *presume* the odds are very high that we're in the "sweet spot" as far as the Civil Servants who work this stuff out can tell. Especially with regard to corporation tax. Companies can't vote so literally the only reason to tax companies anything less than 100pc is that it wouldn't work.
And why is it that the UK’s “sweet spot” is so low, and falling?
Loads of reasons. You can move a company HQ abroad *very* easily these days. Even medium sized firms find it's worth while. You can move your own role abroad to benefit from better personal tax regime and still keep in contact with Family with Whatsapp and Easy jet. People can google ways to avoid tax now. It's a hard time to gather taxes.
Governments have to be pretty devious to raise tax these days. Gordon Brown's change to dividend taxation in 1997 wasn't done for a laugh, it was done because raising tax is getting harder and harder. (...and I suspect that's not raised as much in the long term as people decide pensions aren't as good value as they used to be.)
So here’s a thought. How amusing would it be if in the next GE all the party leaders lost their seats?
Amusing? It'd be nothing short of miraculous considering at least one of them isn't currently an MP.
So here’s a thought. How amusing would it be if in the next GE all the party leaders lost their seats?
Be funny, but Corbyn's safe:
33,215 (60.5%)
Deftly ignored most of my post there outofbreath, well done. But if you genuinely believe that the UK can only be competitive on a world scale by undercutting essentially every other developed economy, that's pretty sad. And as we were already one of the lowest taxed developed countries, presumably if that works like you claim, we'll have already seen an avalanche of businesses relocating here from Germany, France, Canada, the USA... Right?
Anyone watching Sky News today would have seen Jo Swinson animatedly saying that Boris Johnson should be judged on his record. I completely agree.
scotroutes
Hypocrit, cruel, liar. A Tory in a yellow dress.
Definitely a Yellow Tory. Apparently she's voted with the Tory whip more times than Michael Gove.
And a proven avoider of honouring election promises...
Did you hear her on R4 Todays programme?
Almost a shouting match.
She needs to calm down, and get her point across without raising her voice and talking over the presenter.
But if you genuinely believe that the UK can only be competitive on a world scale by undercutting essentially every other developed economy, that’s pretty sad.
It’s more than sad, it’s awful… but if we’re to try and maintain standards and pay for workers, while increasing costs for business by repeatedly devaluing the pound, and seeking to exclude ourselves from all the agreements business use to trade and coordinate with suppliers, partners and customers… something has to be used, and this shitty blunt ineffective tool… together with getting generous with the handouts for businesses that shouldn’t really need them… is probably going to bed in to stay for a long time now. It is the wrong tool… but… the right ones are being melted down for scrap, so what are you going to use?
Now is Jo a yellow “Tory”, maybe… but being seen as that by some might be what is required now… the LibDems need to mop of some of the disillusioned one nation Tories, as it dawns on them what the party they used to vote for and support has become. They can’t rely on internationalist social democrats and left leaning liberals alone if they want to ever stop being the fourth party in Parliament (maybe fifth if the Brexit Party don’t burn out).
Did you hear her on R4 Todays programme?
Almost a shouting match.
She needs to calm down, and get her point across without raising her voice and talking over the presenter.
I missed it but I've just had a listen, thanks for the heads up.
I take your point and I see exactly what you mean but it didn't seem too bad to me. In fact I thought she performed better than she has on the various interviews I've heard. In those she was sounding like Ed Davey side kick at times. The bit she really got exasperated at was the idea of some sort of pact with Labour to combat Brexit. Given Corbyn's been campaigning to leave the EU since 1983 and before I think she was quite right to thoroughly stamp on that idea.
What I *really* liked was her strong defence of her record whilst acknowledging she didn't get it all right. I find myself shouting at the radio when Labour talk down their record in Govt. FFS, "We were **** last time." isn't a vote winner.
Weird how she's getting stick for being a "Yellow Tory" [1] when Vince Cable was a far bigger figure in the coalition than either Davey or Swinson and got precisely zero criticism on that count as Leader.
[1] A position which, as Kelvin says, could be a vote winner.
Now is Jo a yellow “Tory”, maybe… but being seen as that by some might be what is required now… the LibDems need to mop of some of the disillusioned one nation Tories, as it dawns on them what the party they used to vote for and support has become.
Yep, I was out for a ride and thinking much the same. Question is; if they target the disillusioned Tories, will they be able to hang on to the disillusioned Labour voters too?
TBH the only government that will ever get elected for Westminster is a Blue Tory, Yellow Tory or Red Tory (a la Blair).
Question is; if they target the disillusioned Tories, will they be able to hang on to the disillusioned Labour voters too?
The Liberals have been performing that trick for 90 years or so so I'd say yes.
does this make Farage the only leader of a domestic party who’s party supporters actually
liketolerate
I may be the only person on STW that actually voted for her then. Don't agree with a lot of her ideas but the seat is a LibDem SNP marginal. Along with many others I saw her as the best chance of one less SNP MP
But that's first past the post Do you vote for the party you want in govt and arguably waste a vote or tactically to use a vote to keep someone out?
But that’s first past the post Do you vote for the party you want in govt and arguably waste a vote or tactically to use a vote to keep someone out?
Then there's local issues. I'd vote for one Parliamentary candidate who is superb on a critically important local issue, but another on national issues. You can't square that circle. Fortunately I don't live in a marginal so it doesn't actually matter.
And I see she wants a second referendum but says she won't accept the result if it is leave again. Liberal but not democratic.
https://order-order.com/2019/07/23/jo-swinson-wont-accept-result-second-referendum/
Wow.. A Guido link...
May I remind you that farridge said the same thing just before the referendum results? 'unfinished business' if leave lost?
The lib dem policy is very clear.. They want to remain in the EU and will act accordingly.
If you want to leave they are probably not the party for you.
Good. She should do her job. MPs aren’t there to rubber stamp policies they believe are against the interests of the people they represent.
Also parliament is sovereign, not the executive... let us not forget we live in a representative democracy, something the gammons can't seem to understand.
Don't like her or the Liberal Democrats? Don't vote for them then.
The lib dem policy is very clear
It is...
We would campaign for an EU-wide ban on fracking because of its negative impacts on climate change, the energy mix and the local environment.
hmmm...
Jo Swinson generally voted against greater regulation of hydraulic fracturing (fracking) to extract shale gas
And I see she wants a second referendum but says she won’t accept the result if it is leave again. Liberal but not democratic.
Because this is a democracy, if a vote goes against you, you can immediately start campaigning to have it overturned. It doesn't mean that when you lose a vote you have to abandon all your principles.
Because this is a democracy, if a vote goes against you, you can immediately start campaigning to have it overturned. It doesn’t mean that when you lose a vote you have to abandon all your principles.
Unfortunately, not a view shared by Jo Swinson who believes that a referendum held in 2014 is permanently binding. Maybe democracy only started in 2016.
Instead of slagging someone off for their political leanings, go educate yourselves and try making an informed decision on whether you agree/disagree with those political beliefs.
Theres plenty to read, and understand, science and rockets it really isn’t.
Or..
Just stay uninformed and stuck in your ways.
Nows the time to cast away “traditional” views, because they simply do not exist anymore.
🕺
I personally don't particularly like her, her demeanour and way of speaking, some of her voting history.
But it seems some people are confusing MPs voting records with thier party policy. Whilst in a minority coalition, I might add...
The biggest issue the UK faces right now is to stop the self destructive act of leaving the EU. The mess can be mopped up afterwards.. It's not like we've had a functional government for the last three year's anyway.
If zero hours contracts should be banned, what should the new minimum limit be? 1 hour PCM? 4 hours PCM? 8 hours PCM? Would you ban all part time work and have a 38hr minimum contract?
There doesn't have to be a national legal minimum just a number of specified hours in the contract, leaving the employee free to arrange other contract with extra hours for other employers. Or are managers incompetent/lazy and can not/will not work out how many hours a particular job should take?
There doesn’t have to be a national legal minimum just a number of specified hours in the contract, leaving the employee free to arrange other contract with extra hours for other employers. Or are managers incompetent/lazy and can not/will not work out how many hours a particular job should take?
Exactly.. People should be able to take flexible jobs with flexible hours in a fair society.
The problem arises when unscrupulous employers expect people to work on demand with no guarantees.. So you have to be available for work, but you might only get 5 hours a week, or be expected to work 50 hours a week.
That's wrong, it's basically slavery given that you can't claim benefits if you have a 'job'.
It's utterly evil.
The reality is .no matter which party is in power or who the leader of that party is ,hardly anything changes for the better .
Quite frankly I'm absolutely sick to death of hearing the same bs spouted time after time .
The entire way the country is run needs to change not the people running it .
There doesn’t have to be a national legal minimum just a number of specified hours in the contract
A number of specified hours, but not zero. So 15 minute PCM contracts should be legal but not 0 PCM?
leaving the employee free to arrange other contract with extra hours for other employers.
That's a completely different issue. You want employment contracts to not be exclusive. I think that's already the case. Employment contracts with exclusivity usually relate to working for a competitor or similar company. Either way it's nothing to do with the job's minimum hours.
Exactly.. People should be able to take flexible jobs with flexible hours in a fair society.
I really can't see how you can have a job with flexible hours without a contract with a tiny number of working hours and if you're going to allow a tiny number what's wrong with zero?
The Liberals have been performing that trick for 90 years or so so I’d say yes.
And just look at how many MPs they've gained as a result.
Oh.
Spot on Big Bud, same shite, different faces.
hardly anything changes for the better .
Far be it from me to teach you to suck eggs, and I seem to be having this conversation more and more recently, but you do understand that a decade ago we spent all the money (and a damn sight more that we don't have to boot) we should've spent on doctors and schools and roads and all that other stuff, on bailing out the banks after they'd been massively and scandalously reckless: right?
we spent all the money (and a damn sight more that we don’t have to boot) we should’ve spent on doctors and schools and roads and all that other stuff,
This came up on STW a few weeks ago. To my surprise the Uk Govt profited from the baleouts. We were exposed to risk, but by the end the Govt ended up in profit.
It doesn’t mean that when you lose a vote you have to abandon all your principles.
Principles?
Jo Swinson happily rolled over (as did many LibDems) as soon as she got a sniff of power, when she helped enable the formation of the ruinous Con/Dem coalition.
At the very least, as a result of the LibDems actions, thousands of young voters became disillusioned with politics after their first 'go' at it.
She is as self-serving as any if the Tory MPs she jumped into bed with, and her voting record shows a remarkable degree of cognitive dissonance, given the the historic leanings of the party she now leads.
Jo Swinson happily rolled over (as did many LibDems) as soon as she got a sniff of power, when she helped enable the formation of the ruinous Con/Dem coalition.
What choice did they have? Refusing their one chance to be in Government in the last 90 years would have rendered them utterly pointless. Who's gonna vote for a party that won't govern? (Except ironically it turns out that being untainted by government was the thing that kept the votes coming in.)
Jo Swinson happily rolled over (as did many LibDems) as soon as she got a sniff of power
This absolutely. People often ask when the libdems will be forgiven for there dalliance with the devil? They'll be forgiven when all those who were instrumental in it are out of office and replaced by others who don't carry the stench of having collaborated with a tory government which went to war on the poor.
Jo Swinson was one of the main protagonists of the coalition and is one of those directly responsible for the huge numbers of homeless on our streets, those visiting foodbanks, the sick and disabled who are destitute, the young people saddled with debt, and those who now suffer the indignity of begging for minimum wage work from exploitative zero hour contract employers. I'd also say she shares a large responsibility for brexit. Had she and her colleagues done more to protect the millions persecuted by the tories austerity, many of them wouldn't have voted in the referendum the way they did.
Very well said dazh.
Seems like she needs the opportunity to put some of that right. The alternative is either a Labour, Tory, or brexit party brexit. All of which will leave us without a pot to piss in, and there certainly won't be any money around to help those people who clearly need it.
Sometimes you just have to move on and deal with what's in front of you...
What choice did they have?
How about sticking by the principles you seem to believe Swinson/The Lib Dems have?
If all she was/is interested in is power then she should stand by her voting record and performance when in coalition, resign the Lib Dem whip and cross the house to be with her kin.
Sometimes you just have to move on and deal with what’s in front of you…
Interesting that many seem happy to give the Lib Dems the benefit of the doubt, after their actions in enabling a ruinous policy of austerity just a few years ago, yet Labour still get lumbered with actions in the 1970s and those of Tony Blair...
