Jeremy Corbyn

Aside from the arguements about he said, she said, what is wrong with people being angry about these issues?
Anger != Violence

That the issues are of others deliberate making only furthers this.

That's what makes this so dumb. Inciting anger to achieve political change is not only counter productive it's also utterly pointless when there are so many legitimate and effective chances to effect change through actual democracy. (

i see your weak supplication to your political masters and raise you FPTP

Anger != Violence

Anger stops people thinking rationally and it *can* lead to violence. (Finsbury park attacker was famed locally for being an angry shouty person - coincidence?)

A day of "calm logical reflection" would be vastly more useful that a "Day of Rage".

That's what makes this so dumb. Inciting anger to achieve political change is not only counter productive it's also utterly pointless when there are so many legitimate and effective chances to effect change through actual democracy.

Don't be so silly. People are not angry because John McDonnell tells them to be, they are angry because their hospitals are closing, their schools are understaffed, their homes are burning down. To not be angry under such circumstances would be absurd. The question is how to let the powers that be know that they are angry in order that suitable changes can be made.

Of course an alternative scenario is to pretend that everything is fine and people have no reason for anger. That worked out rather poorly for Marie Antoinette.

FPTP

Just have calm peaceful protest about FPTP then. Better than driving a Van into a mosque.

Just have calm peaceful protest about FPTP then. Better than driving a Van into a mosque.

2 randon sentences thrown together there, not sure what they add to this discussion tho

The question is how to let the powers that be know that they are angry in order that suitable changes can be made.

Maybe voting for the opposition in such large numbers that the governing party can't even get a majority. I'd have thought that would send a clear message and lead to a very prompt chance to change the government in the very near future.

Joe, the outlook is very poor indeed. The economy is slowing, we have very weak politicians and the nightmare of Brexshit to deal with.

Plus the overall narrative - including austerity, inequality etc - is flawed, meaning that progress is unlikely to be rapid. Button down the hatches for a very challenging period ahead.

At least we have the BOE hinting that the period of officialy stealing may be approaching its bottom. That's one good thing, except for all the highly indebted!!

A day of "calm logical reflection" would be vastly more useful that a "Day of Rage".

Good plan. Maybe there's further application of this principle. Perhaps the FA should rethink their Kick Out Racism scheme and relaunch it as Politely Suggest Racism To Move Elsewhere.

The suffragettes missed a trick with Votes For Women - imagine how much more successful it would have been to [s]demand[/s]request Occasional Inquiry After The Views Of Women/

2 randon sentences thrown together there, not sure what they add to this discussion tho

You're saying inciting anger is a good tactic because FPTP. I'm countering that.

teamhurtmore - Member
Joe, the outlook is very poor indeed. The economy is slowing, we have very weak politicians and the nightmare of Brexshit to deal with.

Plus the overall narrative - including austerity, inequality etc - is flawed, meaning that progress is unlikely to be rapid. Button down the hatches for a very challenging period ahead.

At least we have the BOE hinting that the period of officialy stealing may be approaching its bottom. That's one good thing, except for all the highly indebted!!

There is only 2 options though, your analysis of it's all f'd is correct. Might as well give the other lot a go. There is no other option.

From my own point of view, I come from nothing, I have nothing, so i have no fear of nothing*. Let's crack on with it.

*In a balance sheet sense, I value my life differently though, don't feel too sorry for me! 😆

You're saying inciting anger is a good tactic because FPTP.

nope

. I'm countering that.

nope
😀

Sadly, your other option is significantly worse than the current bad one. Which leaves us in an almighty pickle.

We will look back at Feb 2016 (?) when CMD came back from Europe with a bloody good deal, albeit massively oversold, with some sadness of what has been lost. It's been downhill ever since.

Time to trade in the cards for a new hand then, as said no other choice, it's the only logical option. This lot are clearly incompetent.

I like his Glastonbury shirt!

Are Run The Jewels on after him? Apparently killer mike's mum just died 🙁

Yep they came on straight after - Killer Mike too

[img] ?oh=38ca6202caf38c34a37f9244a84943a0&oe=59C80417[/img]

Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few

Ever seen a lion rise after slumber? You're asking me to yawn massively, scratch myself a bit, service my harem perhaps then nod off again? It doesn't seem like a recipe for political change;)

I'll just leave this here...

[img] [/img]

What the effing chuff has anyone of this got to do with labour supporters voting for a Marxist Chancellor to 'fix' the economy. Bloody loony left in full effect.

the ranting racist is here again ...to the tune of happy days are here again

when i get a bank loan i have to pay it back.. when does the money tree need watering and by whom?

The explanation is not a pithy soundbite wrapped up in a straw man so it will be too complicated for you

when i get a bank loan i have to pay it back

Really? When I eat a jalfrezi, my farts smell wicked.

Your point being?

Man from affluent part of London speaks to people who paid hundreds of pounds for a weekend of music about austerity.

Slightly ironic...

Islington North is a mixed borough, like many areas of London now. Its not really affluent though the affluent have started to live side by side with the poor.

What interesting is that the RW seem to have realised they cannot counter the message he has so they will just play the man instead.

I dont think it is going to work that well as i think people see the disconnect between what they are told and what they see when he speaks

For the many not the few - its a simple powerful message* that you need to counter with more than just shitty barbs about money trees.

* its also hollow and meaningless like strong and stable, bring back control, make america great again etc

Man from affluent part of London speaks to people who paid hundreds of pounds for a weekend of music about austerity.

Least he can talk to them, the maybot would be hiding in a portaloo.

Not entirely enamoured with either of them.

The key question is what makes a good party leader/government leader.

Not sure the media or anyone else always make decisions based on that. Seems to be becoming a popularity contest

Man from affluent part of London speaks to people who paid hundreds of pounds for a weekend of music about austerity.

Slightly ironic...

There's some truth in that.

Least he can talk to them, the maybe would be hiding in a portaloo.

This is also true.

Pretty tragic when the leaders of both main parties really aren't up to much!

Seems to be becoming a popularity contest

+1.

You're right - this is the chap to tell us about austerity

[img] [/img]

maybe

weird spelling correct you have on copy and paste mrlebowski 😕

Slightly ironic...

I'd suggest it's a clever move with the opportunity to speak and be heard without the words being twisted by the Daily Hate as a lot of people would see this through social media.

Good opportunity to shore up support amongst a key support group.

You're right - this is the chap to tell us about austerity

I don't think a lot of either of them. One man's ego & folly has led us to the mess we are in now. The other? Well....

Good opportunity to shore up support amongst a key support group

Preaching to the converted is always a safe bet - it's connecting to those that are unsure that is a whole different ball game...

Don't disagree. Popular soundbites are not the solution to anything though.

Lots of issues which need serious cross party debate rather than the current popularity contest.

More money not always the answer - NHS is a good example. Money is only one of many many issues.

serious cross party debate

Sadly a bloody rarity in British politics!

Where's the magic money tree for cuts to inheritance tax? Cuts to Corporation tax. What the **** is Q.E if not magic money tree?

Preaching to the converted is always a safe bet - it's connecting to those that are unsure that is a whole different ball game...

They'd have been some unconverted in the crowd. It's Glastonbury not a Momemtum meeting!

Where's the magic money tree for cuts to inheritance tax? Cuts to Corporation tax. What the **** is Q.E if not magic money tree?

Absolutely.

Don't disagree. Popular soundbites are not the solution to anything though.

Magic money tree, strong and stable, coalition of chaos, brexit means brexit, red white and blue brexit. I think we know who the experts are at the empty soundbite.

Lots of issues which need serious cross party debate rather than the current popularity contest.

By cross-party you mean 'agree with the status quo'. We've done that for 20 years, look where we are. Trying to criticise Corbyn for proposing something different and engaging in a popularity contest is a bit daft. That's what politics is isn't it?

More money not always the answer - NHS is a good example. Money is only one of many many issues.

The NHS is a good example of how to use a vital public service to propagate an ideology against the interests of it's users. Give it more money, but not nearly enough, then argue that more money hasn't worked due to systemic failures, so we need to change the funding system, ie privatise. Funny isn't it how when the NHS was properly funded and organised that you could be seen in A+E within a couple of hours, get a GP appointment the same day as you're ill, and wait less than 6 months for a routine operation.

They'd have been some unconverted in the crowd. It's Glastonbury not a Momemtum meeting!

Ah, Glastonbury - cementing Jeremy's rode as 'Vox populi'

Or at least 'Vox of the type of populi who can afford £238 for a pop concert'

Another glass of champagne anyone?

What a lovely sneer you have there, ninfan

The interesting thing though is the proportion of people who can afford £238 a ticket who apparently support higher taxation

£238 for a pop concert

And yes Glastonbury is legendary for the vast amounts of champagne consumed at it

Another glass of champagne anyone?

There really is nothing better than seeing a tory trying to cope with the fact that power is slipping through their fingers. How dare those oiks presume to be drinking champagne! Just who do they think they are?

[quote=Junkyard ]How old are you ...are you Giles Brandreth
And yes Glastonbury is legendary for the vast amounts of champagne consumed at it

tch - you just gave him a reaction

Daz don't in any way mean agree with the status quo. But all parties spend plenty of time just criticising one anothers ideas to win support rather than finding sensible ways forward.

NHS probably does need more money, but there is still vast amounts of waste and lot of logistical issues. Current low waiting times for surgery are mainly due to massive amounts of routine surgery being done in the private sector - makes good headlines but not cheap, and NHS just doesn't have the capacity to get through the work (nor will it).

I don't agree with current government policy but equally think Jeremy Corbyn is being somewhat wildly ambitious with what he is promising.

But all parties spend plenty of time just criticising one anothers ideas to win support rather than finding sensible ways forward.

I'd argue the opposite, they haven't spent enough time either challenging the other's policies or promoting alternatives. The labour party under Corbyn are challenging the consensus that the only way to solve problems in our society is to reduce government intervention and leave things to the market. It's taken a while, but people are now finally waking up to the idea that if trillions can be found to rescue banks and corporations, and fight wars, they can also be found to fund public services, pay propers wages and provide decent housing. I agree Jeremy Corbyn is being very ambitious, although not irresponsibly so, and it's about bloody time someone is.

its (for the many not the few) also hollow and meaningless like strong and stable, bring back control, make america great again etc

The consensus Dazh? Have you been away? Since when has that happened....

I hve to say I wouldn't have thought that the typical glasto goer was a hardline leftie!

I will admit that I thought he was an imbicele when he gained the leadership. Nowadays he appears to have toned things down a bit, and I think he will be very very appealing to the younger generation..

i find myself agreeing with 90% of what he says. The GE was a defining moment for him and hes come out of it well.

jet26 - Member

More money not always the answer - NHS is a good example. Money is only one of many many issues.

Actually for the NHS money is the answer. We spend less on healthcare than almost every other comparative nation. 25% lesthan Germany. 50% less than the US. Its astonishing its a good as it is given the funding shortfall . thats why we struggle. Other issues are peripheral.

Nowadays he appears to have toned things down a bit

? one thing you can say on corbyn is that he's pretty consistent imo.

The GE was a defining moment for him and [b]hes come out of it well[/b].

Apart from losing...

I don't think he's toned anything down, I think people have realised he's not as much of a revolutionary loon as the RW media would have people believe.

Sorting out social care would be a big step to help NHS.

More money may help but there are massive inefficiencies and money spent on ineffective treatment.

US is a poor comparison - 40% of their total spend is on administration of billing system. Which is madness.

Gary_C - Member
Apart from losing...

I don't think he's toned anything down, I think people have realised he's not as much of a revolutionary loon as the RW media would have people believe.

Quite possibly..he certainly has got his message across better then..

jet26 - Member

Sorting out social care would be a big step to help NHS.

and guess what - that takes money - a lot of it. MOney is the main cause of issues with social care. Fee rates are so low that the staff get minimum wage or less so recruitment and retention is impossible

More money may help but there are massive inefficiencies and money spent on ineffective treatment.

Really? Every bit of research shows the NHS to be one of if not the most efficient healthcare system

Like to detail some examples that are not daily wail made up nonsense?

tpbiker - Member

I hve to say I wouldn't have thought that the typical glasto goer was a hardline leftie!

No matter who Corbyn talks to, people will say he's preaching to the converted. I saw him just chatting to people in the street, I mention this to people and they say "London innit" as if everyone in London is a rabid leftie. Goes door to door, Binners says "Never meets normal people". Speaks to a rally with thousands of people, "all momentum innit". Opens for RTJ at Glastonbury in front of tens of thousands, people have checked and confirmed that every single one is a labour voter.

Still, if people want to stick with such feeble and worn-out responses, that's cool.

but there are massive inefficiencies and money spent on ineffective treatment.

I believed that once, too, but have since realised it's just another part of the Tory rhetoric. The NHS needs money. The police need money. The welfare system needs money. The banks need less money.

[quote=Gary_C ]Apart from losing...

and yet he's the only major party leader at Westminster likely to still be there at the next GE

Apart from losing...

25% lesthan Germany. 50% less than the US.

They pay so much because of private health insurers.

I pay a silly amount each month, but it's still peanuts compared to what friends pay (700-800€/month in some cases).

Remember reading some article a while back saying the insurance companies spend more on advertising and administration than they do on actual health care.

There was a big thing a while ago with people bemoaning the amount insurers were making. So much so that my GF received 100€ as a good will gesture.

That is not to say I'm against giving the NHS more money. Quite the opposite, but you can't compare a fully privatised set up with the NHS.

US is a poor comparison - 40% of their total spend is on administration of billing system. Which is [s]madness[/s][b]profitable[/b].

but there are massive inefficiencies and money spent on ineffective treatment.

I believed that once, too, but have since realised it's just another part of the Tory rhetoric. The NHS needs money. The police need money. The welfare system needs money.

TJ to answer your question - orthopaedic surgery. Implant costs vary across the country (I..e price paid for same implant) but also massive variety in what used - some units using implants that are no more effective but much more costly than others.

That's one bit of one specialty. There are many more.

More funding needs to be tied to reduction of variation in practice and greater efficiency. Pouring more money without this may well lead to less efficiency.

Staff (includes self) should also be taught more about cost of stuff we use - most people have no idea.

I dreamed last night that I met Jeremy Corbyn randomly somewhere but didn't recognise him straight away because he'd shaved his beard off.

It's becoming rarer, but I still meet quite senior consultant surgeons who say things such as "I'm not a man for budgets" or "I just care about outcomes, not money"

I dreamed last night that I met Jeremy Corbyn randomly somewhere but didn't recognise him straight away because he'd shaved his beard off.

You may want to eat a bit more cheese before going to sleep to spice up those dreams a bit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40451301

Is Chuka trying to cement his position for a future leaderhip bid? Or did he do this for genuine reasons? Or is this to represent the views in his own constituency?

Given he pulled out of the leadership race the first time the first seems unlikely, but perhaps not impossible.

Anyone care to speculate?

i think he just wants to be to JC what JC was to Blair

There is a still a great divide in opinions between the entrenched Blairites and the corbynistas

Why they wont pretend to be united when the tories are weak is a question to put to him
I am sure he wont admit its personal hubris and I expect at least part of his motivation is principle

It was also pointless as the vote was never going to be carried so I also think there must have been other motives

Bit of each, but he also knows that there are plenty of Tory MPs who agree with him.
So he's doing it on principle, something Corbyn can hardly knock him for

Labours ambiguity on Brexit also helps them more (and it certainly did in the last election collecting both Leavers and remainers) than it would if they were actually in government

Labours ambiguity on Brexit

what ambiguity ?

Corbyns leading - Corbyn wants hard Brexit - it has always been pretty clear and now it is even clearer with the recent sackings.

He does not want hard brexit but he does certainly want it

How you can assume he wants hard or soft based on this is lost on em coudl you explain your reasons?

I think it's always been obvious corbyn is after some sort of brexit. Which type is unclear, I think he's trying to play games at the moment though.

I agree i think he has always been a leaver but towed the party line for unity and campaigned [ weakly] for remain.

I dont think the MP's or the membership are as anti as he is

I dont think the MP's or the membership are as anti as he is

He's taken, however reluctantly, the party line for Remain and Trident, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect shadow cabinet colleagues to support him.