And which cut out if you went round a roundabout too fast.
Given the learner driver who very nearly pulled out on me at a roundabout I was going round at speed today, and whose instructor only just got the emergency stop happening in time, that could have been quite a useful feature for me actually 😆
People who want nationaliaed industries clearly weren't about in the 1970's and 80's.
Yep, that's the only choice isn't it? Nationalised companies HAVE to behave like they're still in the 70's... 🙄
Discussion of the railways tends to illustrate the point made by the ORR that
The complex structure of the British rail industry makes it difficult for stakeholders to understand the income, expenditure and government funding of the industry as a whole.
And that more work needs to be done (or at least people need to read their work, but since when have facts been important)
We consider that transparency strengthens the industry?s accountability and deepens our understanding of the rail industry?s finances to improve informed debate about the value for money of the industry for its funders.
Informed debate is about as good a misnomer as gentler, kinder politics 😉
Further illustration that Corbyn isn't very interested in taking seats.
Boom tish 🙂 he can't even "win" a vacant seat. As Johnx says if you see a reserved seat with no one in it you just sit down as soon as train is moving if not before. Job done.
Don't forget Corbyn has been recalled to face the Home Affairs Select Committee for a "mis-statement" or what anyone else would call a lie regarding his continued associations with a Holocaust denier.
Nationalisation is dead. Gone. Finihsed. A thing of the past. To speak of it will be electoral suicide, an absolute open goal for the other parties to speak of the failed policies of the 1970's and how Corbyn is trying to take the UK back to those dark dysfunctional days.
Yep, that's the only choice isn't it? Nationalised companies HAVE to behave like they're still in the 70's...
My point @nick is their is no model of success. Look at the phone system, BT is a bit cr@p but its a million times better than it was.
Nationalised industries will become strike central. Politically morivated trade unionists wanting to prove their credentials againat a Tory government or knowing that a Labour government will never fight them so asking for the moon on a stick.
The Unions brought down Callahan's Labour Government. Smart eh ? It was 18 years before Labour formed another government. 18.
Jambas, how very dare you. Public ownership is the holy grail and the solution to all our problems.
The new (sic) idea of a [s]National Enterprise Board[/s] National Investment Bank led by [s]Anthony Wedgewood Benn[/s] Jezza & Co to invest (sic) in the commanding height of the economy is also a no-brainer. Dont we need more Leylands? After all we dont wannt Jonny Foreigner coming in and investing their dirty private money.
Still out of the economic wasteleands of the 70s some of these little darlings did emerge back into private or semi-private hands - BTG, CDC, Actis etc
Having had the "pleasure" of working for a state controlled bank for 9 months I can safely say politicians and banks are the absolute worst combination. Politically motivated lending with an implicit backstop by the tax payer (no need for a bailout as the taxpayers are on the hook from the start)
The heavy hand also exists throughout our privatised (sic) railway industry.
My favourite bit of the Chief Clown's little message was when he widened his eyes, "angry Rick" style on the word "nationalised". Oooh, that's me proper scared, then. What a ninny.
Comedy gold.
So from the point of view of the democratic socialist how do you encourage the likes of Richard Branson who is undoubtedly a self made man and directly or indirectly contributes however much to the UK economy from just upping sticks and going elsewhere.
The model left wing army that is the SNP would suggest (with a straight face) cut corporation tax
No wonder they are so popular, you really can have it all.
Jambas, how very dare you. Public ownership is the holy grail and the solution to all our problems.
What, like private ownership?
No mol, oddly enough its more complicated than the current debate would suggest. But still good to go back to the old days of nationalisation v privatisation etc, we have come a long way havent we?
we will be privatising the NHS next!
What, like private ownership?
Well, from a train users perspective, that certainly seems like a better model to me.
My point @nick is their is no model of success. Look at the phone system, BT is a bit cr@p but its a million times better than it was.
really? I'm willing to bet money there are any number of customers of BT who'll be more than happy to tell you what a shower of chimps they are
So British Leyland means no nationalised industries forever?
By that logic the banking crisis means nationalised banks forever.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/01/matt-cartoons-august-2016/ ]good take on it by Matt in the Torygraph[/url]
😆
No mol, oddly enough its more complicated than the current debate would suggest.
I understand that, that's why I'm not the one making fatuous statements about public ownership!
It's clear that if it ever happened we'd need a new model for it. No-one wants to go back to the 70s, nor does anyone want to go back to the mid 80s (except for greedy Thatcherites).
However as a fundamental principle, I (and by the sound of it quite a few others) don't think fundamental public infrastructure should be run for private profit. The two concepts aren't aligned.
Look at the phone system, BT is a bit cr@p but its a million times better than it was.
Hmm.. now correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the publicly owned BT do some pretty world leading research and development in telecoms technology?
It's not like there have been any strikes recently by employees of privately-owned TOCs, ay Jambas?
really? I'm willing to bet money there are any number of customers of BT who'll be more than happy to tell you what a shower of chimps they are
... having switched to a better oh hang on....
Private company...
Perhaps not - but this is a thread about Jezza not molgrips.
Now there is a perfectly valid and sound argument for the role of governments - one that counters a lot of what the Tories are saying ([b]if not doing[/b]) eg "you cant solve a debt crisis by taking on more debt*" - without resorting to the clapped out proposals being spouted by the cuckoos. Unfortunately the current HM Opposition (to the extent that it exists) are not equipped to make the correct arguement.
* simply illustrated that Dave did not understand the type of recession that we were in. But neither did the oppo, hence the largely inappropriate policy responses that we have had here and elsewhere conducted by politicians of all parties.
The current debate remains framed in the wrong context. The cuckoos are simply muddying the waters further, so they deserve to dismissed as a credible opposition. Not that they need any outside help with that.
Thx, binners, Matt hits the spot.
Cuckoos?
And THM you've exposed another problem with democracy. There's no way to ensure that the people who get voted in are actually any good at running a country - they are only good at persuading voters to vote for them.
I guess that's what you mean by cuckoos. And in a staggering display of synchronicity, I can hear the only cuckoo I've heard all year calling outside my window....
True - which is why I prefer to minimise their role as much as possible. Perhaps we agree 😉
Its a sign Mol, stick a £5 on Old Jezza for the 20:20 race at Westminster....
It has long been apparent to me that politicians can only poke and prod at this juggernaut machine that is our economy, rather than completely control it. What they can do is take what it produces and apply it in different ways.
That's why I vote on ideological grounds.
They can and do a lot more than that
Monetary policy
Fiscal policy
Supply-side reforms
Direct intervention
State support
Tax breaks etc
not really ideological
"Control the economy", hmm?
Has that actually worked, anywhere? Just saying.
It has long been apparent to me that politicians can only poke and prod at this juggernaut machine that is our economy, rather than completely control it.
Indeed. If only there were a recent example of a party trying to temper the more unfair and unjust sides of neoliberal free-market capitalism, with say more public spending on health and education, yet without resorting to mad leftie nonsense.
Can't think of any recent examples of that though. Can you....?
not really ideological
I disagree - you can pull all those levers, but it's the *direction* in which you pull them that's ideological.
with say more public spending on health and education, yet without resorting to mad leftie nonsense.
Er.. what? Can you please define mad leftie nonsense for us, just to be clear?
Mad leftie nonsense:
Unilateral nuclear disarmament
Submarines with no weapons doing pleasure cruises of the North Atlantic
Renationalising everything
for starters
"Jambas, how very dare you. Public ownership is the holy grail and the solution to all our problems".What, like private ownership?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/09/state-owned-east-coast-rail-franchise-paid-225m-pounds-treasury-still-faces-privatisation ]State-owned East Coast paid £225m to Treasury - but still faces privatisation [/url]
[b][i]Results published by Directly Operated Railways (DOR), the company established in July 2009 to take over the running of the London-to-Edinburgh route from the loss-making National Express, showed that its premium payments to the government had risen from £202m to £216.8m in 2014, making a total of more than £1bn over its five-year lifespan.[/i][/b]
Most and least complained about railways companies :
[b] TRAIN COMPANIES WITH THE MOST COMPLAINTS, APRIL TO JUNE 2015
Company / Complaints per 100,000 passenger journeys (Jan-Mar) / Complaints per 100,000 passenger journeys (Apr-Jun)
Virgin Trains West Coast / 231.8 / 196.5
Virgin Trains East Coast / 166.7 / 142.3
Chiltern / 94.8 / 102.2
East Midlands Trains / 64.7 / 59.0
Arriva Trains Wales / 53.3 / 44.7
CrossCountry / 48.7 / 40.1
Northern Rail / 24.5 / 36.6
First TransPennine Express / 40.2 / 35.3
Greater Anglia / 28.4 / 34.5
First Great Western / 36.9 / 28.7
London Midland / 30.0 / 27.3
ScotRail / 25.5 / 21.9
Merseyrail / 18.5 / 15.9
c2c / 17.7 / 15.5
Southeastern / 23.4 / 14.7
Govia Thameslink Railway / 20.5 / 13.8
South West Trains / 18.2 / 12.0
Southern / 9.3 / 7.3
London Overground / 2.8 / 3.3[/b]
NB London Overground = publicly owned.
The Tory privatisation fetish is so absurd that they are willing for foreign state owned companies such French, German, and Dutch, to have rail franchises, just as long as it's not a British state owned company.
Most people see the stupidity of this pointless right-wing dogma which I guess explains why even Tory voters support [i]British[/i] nationalised rail companies.
[img] 
[/img]
Unilateral nuclear disarmament
Submarines with no weapons doing pleasure cruises of the North Atlantic
Renationalising everything
Trident aside - is Corbyn's policy to renationalise everything? Did I miss that?
Trident aside - is Corbyn's policy to renationalise everything? Did I miss that?
I think binner's point is that despite the public, even Tory voters, sharing Corbyn's "hard-left" views on rail nationalisation he considers it to be, quote, [i]"mad leftie nonsense".[/i]
Which is why he is backing the plot to remove Corbyn.
Unfortunately for binners the only alternative to Corbyn also supports this mad leftie nonsense of rail nationalisation.
Personally I think binners should just vote Tory, he appears to be more right-wing than most Tory voters. I can't imagine why he would even consider voting Labour. Well not this week anyway who knows about next week.......another week another rant.
Has binners ever liked a politician, ever?
No, I don't believe so. Well not for very long anyway - he did at the start of this thread like Corbyn.
with say more public spending on health and education, yet without resorting to mad leftie nonsense.
You mean PFI? A policy which mortgaged the future, achieving short terms gains at huge long term cost to the taxpayer, and way in excess than it would have been if it were simple direct investment by govt funded by public borrowing. Mad lefty nonsense indeed.
The problem for Labour is that it needs people like Binners to vote for them to get into power. You win elections in the centre ground, not the left of the right. The left will vote for Corbyn, the right will vote Tory, that's easy, but the centre will decide who to vote for and so, who will win. Right now, Labour under Corbyn, IMO, will get very few centre ground votes so will lose any election with him at the helm.
Whether that concerns Labour or Corbyn supporters is a different question altogether.
Has binners ever liked a politician, ever?
Don't be ridiculous!
On a related note to issues touched on earlier in this thread, Owen Smith saying he'll call another referendum has got UKIP dancing with glee, and another example of still absolutely totally failing to get the message from the 'Northern Heartlands' which so resoundingly voted out of the EU.
But as Jezza is also a supporter of an open door immigration policy he can't capitalise on that. So it looks like either way, the leadership election is academic, as the next labour party leader is going to preside over the loss of a slew of seats to a UKIP party that is now actively targeting (very successfully) its former voters in its former 'heartlands' who still being resolutely ignored by everyone at Westminster, bearded or otherwise.
So... at the end of the day... 2 bald blokes fighting over a comb
Add to this what Lunge correctly observed. That very few, if any, cenrtist voters will go for Corbyn
The problem for Labour is that it needs people like Binners to vote for them to get into power.
That certainly isn't a problem for Labour. If there's one thing this thread has taught us it's that binners is not a typical voter. He has gone from extreme support for Corbyn to extreme opposition to Corbyn, he claims to be a Labour supporter but is more right-wing on rail nationalisation than most Tory voters, dismissing it as mad leftie nonsense.
I have done a lot of election work over the years knocking on thousands of doors of ordinary voters, I have never heard anyone rant the way binners rants on here.
Binners always takes an extreme position ........extreme opposition to everything.
The problem for Labour is that it needs people like Binners to vote for them to get into power. You win elections in the centre ground, not the left of the right. The left will vote for Corbyn, the right will vote Tory, that's easy, but the centre will decide who to vote for and so, who will win. Right now, Labour under Corbyn, IMO, will get very few centre ground votes so will lose any election with him at the helm.
Nonsense - Momentum are merely the vanguard of a popular revolution. With one wave of his red flag comrade Corbyn will lead us into the broad, sunlit uplands of liberation
the leadership election is academic, as the next labour party leader is going to preside over the loss of a slew of seats to a UKIP party that is now actively targeting (very successfully) its former voters in its former 'heartlands'
So are you saying labour can't win unless it lowers itself to the 'northern heartlands' view on immigration? It's lost me, and I suspect many others who actually bother to vote if that's true.
If there's one thing this thread has taught us it's that binners is not a typical voter. He has gone from extreme support for Corbyn to extreme opposition to Corbyn
On the contrary comrade. This makes me a typical voter. Tribal loyalties are over. Finished. As recent results in previously bomb-proof labour constituancies in Scotalnd and the north demonstrate.
People will be pragmatic, and judge politicians on their actions, or propsed actions. How many times I have to repeat this to you I don't know.... I was all for Corbyn giving it a go as he represented something new. I hoped he'd tone down the wilder leftie rhetoric, and moderate his stance on things to try and broaden his appeal to be inclusive of more centrist voters, while shifting the centre of gravity to the left.
But he hasn't, has he? Far from it. Right from the off (when he refused to sing the national anthem - grow up FFS!!) he's been an utter disaster. Utterly ineffectual as a buttress against the Tories, and politically clueless as he's staggered from on elephant trap to another (unilateral nuclear disarmament... seriously?).
And his nose-diving poll ratings reflect this. People in the UK (except you and your fellow cult members) don't do extreme left or right. They don't like idealogues. They're inherently distrustful of them. Especially ones that look like cult leaders.
People (hey.. like me...) will vote according to who they deem to be competent, and who they trust to do the job properly on a credible economic and political platform.
And that, Comrade, aint Jezza
Sorry
You may not like the way things are. But they are what they are comrade
the 'Northern Heartlands' which so resoundingly voted out of the EU.
Why though? Considered opposition on solid grounds, or just knee jerk xenophobia? Or a mix of poorly considered ideas?
I'd sooner not have my country held to ransom by that shit, if that's the case. But you know, the PEOPLE MUST BE RESPECTED and all that 🙄
I hope more politicians to oppose that particular bit of popular will. Democracy my arse.
People in the UK don't do extreme left or right.
Can we get this point cleared up please?
[b]CORBYN IS NOT EXTREME LEFT[/b]
CORBYN IS NOT EXTREME LEFT
And Farage was not extreme right
Didn't do them much good in the general election though, despite gaining 12.6% of the overall vote
CORBYN IS NOT EXTREME LEFT
In the grand scheme of things, no, he isn't. But compared the recent UK politics he is.
Obama is a "leftie" in the US, yet he's way right of the Tories. It's not a case of comparing it to the whole political spectrum, it's looking at it within the context of UK politics.
As Binners rightly says:
People (hey.. like me...) will vote according to who they deem to be competent, and who they trust to do the job properly on a credible economic and political platform.And that, Comrade, aint Jezza
But compared the recent UK politics he is.
No, not extreme left - just normal left.