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Really? Or are you just making that up to fuel your argument?
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Yes that really does happen. Non clinical staff often feel under appreciated because all the praise and focus goes to the clinical staff. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it’s made up to show a different perspective</span>
I must have missed ODP day and not sure if it is on the UN list
Neither is Pride month so what’s your point? Mine is that there are hundreds of ‘special’ days for all sorts of groups who in the main want to be treated as no different to anyone else.
You and your friend is entitled to their opinion, that's fine.
I don't really get why you had to do the intellectual superiority bit though, what it adds to the point of your post. It's not a poet's work, it's a TFL worker (two actually) just doing their bit to brighten Londoner's lives and spread a message.
https://twitter.com/allontheboard?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I don’t really get why you had to do the intellectual superiority bit though,
Not to go too far on a tangent, but that wasn't the quite the angle I was going for. I didn't say it was written by an 8 year old, but that the choice of language appealed to one. That choice of language is a skill in its own right - not surprising, as the people who wrote it are apparently publishing a book.
Apart from that - thanks, I think I made a fair point or two.
That's how it came across to me. Just some feedback, for next time, as I think it detracts from your fair point.
Also not to go too far off on a tangent too but an interesting 'fact' I just wondered and looked up.
22% of Londoners do not have English as a first language. They may have partially lost 1/5 of their audience with a more poetic version. Maybe more, once you consider the inclusivity of using language that the full demographic can follow.
Anyway, tangent over.
but really it’s about making a statement for certain historically oppressed minority groups
This assumes that the oppression is over. Which for some people, in some places, in some jobs, it might well be. That experience is far from universal.
These threads always end up here... "I want everyone to be treated the same, because I'm not a bigot, but I refuse to do anything, or recognise any one else's attempts to, or see the benefit in any campaigning seeking to, help us get to that point".
I refuse to do anything, or recognise any one else’s attempts to, or see the benefit in any campaigning seeking to, help us get to that point”.
You're making quite the assumption here.
Also, as I initially said - that's fine, if you want to promote a call to action for certain historically (and indeed, currently) oppressed minority groups. Hiding it as a nice poem about equality and self-expression for all is a little disingenuous, that's all.
Neither is Pride month so what’s your point?
You brought in the UN list and the resentment angle.
Why do you, or why do you think others resent PRIDE and who are they?
Hiding it as a nice poem about equality and self-expression for all is a little disingenuous, that’s all.
How so? I mean, it's not supposed to be the only source of information about what PRIDE is about... you can read it and then go and do some googling. As it happens, I thought that in very few words it managed to say an awful lot about what we can all do, and offers encouragement to those who might otherwise be feeling quite alone.
Hiding it as a nice poem about equality and self-expression for all is a little disingenuous, that’s all.
So you would have been cool if they had written a manifesto on that board instead?
They would have had to have written pretty small.
A gay friend hates Pride month. Like me, he doesn’t agree that “love is loud”, that we all need to “march together” or “lift our voices”. Each to their own, I suppose.
Does your friend feel like he owes any kind debt to the 'loud' rights activists?
Or does he believe that the current level of acceptance towards the LGBT community would have evolved naturally over the last 30 years?
Whilst I fully agree with what the board says I don’t understand why a group that want to be accepted, and this can be any group, and treated as a normal part of society then want to have a whole event celebrating why they are different!
Respectfully, I don't think you do "fully agree" do you?
As for the notion that Pride events run contrary to 'normalisation' well I suppose any society that fails to celebrate difference, especially when a history of sanctioned oppression and violence against such groups exists, tacitly gives the nod to oppressive conformism and ultimately not accepting those differences that could easily and innocuously have been celebrated...
These events also serve as a useful way to out people who feel the need to vocally "not understand" as the closet, lightweight bigots they probably are...
I say "lightweight" in the sense that they're now conscious that their distain for various "types" of people is starting to make them potential outliers from polite society, so they've tended to keep their mouths shut, not relishing the idea of having their views examined and challenged. These tentative "not understanding" statements are typically about as brave as it gets...
How so? I mean, it’s not supposed to be the only source of information about what PRIDE is about… you can read it and then go and do some googling.
I didn't really plan to do any textual analysis, but as you ask..
It's not clear who the intended reader of this poem is, as it switches between lines addressing a (presumably) struggling or oppressed LGBTQ+ person (for example, "Don't be afraid to be honest who you are", etc...), and lines addressing the broader population who need to do something (eg, "This world would be better if we made an effort to be more understanding", "Don't pretend that being different is a lifestyle choice"). It might even addressing the select group of appropriately inclusive people ("Those who have no acceptance are the ones with problems").
So, to your point about "googling Pride" - I don't think this poem helps that at all. Which of those potential target audiences would benefit from that? How does this help those who do need to "google Pride", achieve this?
To my original point, there are also lines like "When everyone is treated as equals, we are more free", which would imply that this is also a poem about equal rights and expression for all. But, it's not, it's about correcting historical/ongoing injustices, which is why I called it "disingenuous". Maybe it was a little harsh, but there we go.
It's not a problem, I'm not offended or troubled. Someone just asked why anyone might have an issue with it, and that is the sum total of mine.
Does your friend feel like he owes any kind debt to the ‘loud’ rights activists?
Interesting question, I'll ask next time I see him.
‘Grumpy Old Bastards’ need a half-day allocated. Speaking for and as self, I could feasibly attend both ‘GOB Daylet’ and also Pride Day and yet still disagree and be somehow annoyed with most every individual/group/flag going. And then be annoyed at myself for being annoyed.
<satire>Maybe we should only allow Pride events in countries where they are not allowed.</satire>
These tentative “not understanding” statements are typically about as brave as it gets
Had our town’s first Pride event in 2019. The main road in from the Motorway had a road sign defaced with ‘KILL GAY PRIDE’ graffiti’d across it in large letters. This being the UK we like to think we’re above all of that business.
It’s not clear who the intended reader of this poem is, as it switches between lines addressing a (presumably) struggling or oppressed LGBTQ+ person (for example, “Don’t be afraid to be honest who you are”, etc…), and lines addressing the broader population who need to do something
Yes it does. Which is exactly what I wrote in the post you are replying to. Well, that was my intention anyway. I can see that subtly and subtext are lost on you.
To my original point, there are also lines like “When everyone is treated as equals, we are more free”, which would imply that this is also a poem about equal rights and expression for all. But, it’s not, it’s about correcting historical/ongoing injustices, which is why I called it “disingenuous”. Maybe it was a little harsh, but there we go.
Do you understand what "treated as equals", "equal rights" and "injustices" mean, and how they relate to each other?
Maybe we should only allow Pride events in countries where they are not allowed.
Made me laugh. But also sums many things up nicely.
Which is exactly what I wrote in the post you are replying to.
You said that it would help some people who need to "google Pride", which I assume means those who don't know enough about it and need to read more. As I already said, I'm not sure how this will help. I suppose it might brigthen the day of someone struggling, or maybe help someone already doing good to feel like they are doing some good.
Anyway, that's enough nitpicking from me. I do have a tendency to demand consistency and correctness where it is not necessarily needed.
You said that it would help some people who need to “google Pride”
I did? I doubt it. What I intended to say is that in a short poem, you can only hope to make a few points, you can't explain all the history and context of PRIDE, so to not do so is not "disingenuous", as you put it. People can use google, or ask others, if they feel the need to find out more, they don't have to rely on one short poem on a board to learn everything.
Dang it, @Kelvin, you edited your previous post after I'd already said I was done.
In for a penny, in for a pound...
Do you understand what “treated as equals”, “equal rights” and “injustices” mean, and how they relate to each other?
Yes, I do. "Equal rights" (which we do have, by law) allows there to be a LGBTQ+ Pride, as well as a Hetero Pride (and, I assume, a White Pride, although I'm sure there's some thorny discussion there). "Treated as equals" means "treated the same, regardless of skin colour, orientation, background, nationality and race". "Injustices" are things that can be corrected with the justice system.
in a short poem, you can only hope to make a few points, you can’t explain all the history and context of PRIDE, so to not do so is not “disingenuous”.
That's not, as I explained, why I called it "disingenuous". The reason I called it "disingenuous" is because, I am sure, my definitions of equality are not going to satisfy you. It's a subtle point.
Well, now you've mentioned "Hetero Pride", we get any even better picture of you, and why you've posted in this thread.
Well, now you’ve mentioned “Hetero Pride”, we get any even better picture of you, and why you’ve posted in this thread.
It was an illustrative device, chosen because it's the other side of the LGBTQ+ Pride coin, and is one of the things that would be ok if "equal rights" meant what it literally does. Would it be better if I called it "Non-LGBTQ+ Pride"?
Edit: Your emotional response to the very idea of "Hetero Pride" makes my very point - there would be nothing wrong with that, if it were about the literal idea of equality. As I know very well, "equality" really means "treating some groups different than others to fix historical and current injustices".
If you can't disentangle these things, and take hypotheticals and illustrative devices as literals and use them to slur the person speaking to you, then we can't really go much further.
Wow, I didn’t see this one ending in an argument (despite Kelvin’s attempt with the ‘sea lion’ comment).
Pride is great, there’s something for everyone. I’ve been attending since the first tiny Pride in Brighton in 1991, (not the very first in ‘72?), when it felt genuinely subversive and dangerous.
I’m not interested in the big, brash, commercial party in Preston Park, but I love the parade and the smaller events in Kemp Town.
How anyone can have an argument about this, or about the message on the billboard in the OP, is beyond me.
(and, I assume, a White Pride, although I’m sure there’s some thorny discussion there)
There is no White identity in which anyone can have pride. Instead, we have national pride - being period of the cultural heritage of your ancestors.
The existence of Black pride only comes about because slavery/colonialism took the knowledge of specific ancestry away from so many Black people.
White pride = white supremacy = racism
Hmmm.
And not a single day set aside to recognise the struggles white cis-gender heterosexual males face just for being who they are.
*Looks out of window - sees dozens of white cis-gender heterosexual males* - if only that community was as accepting as the LGBT+ community then we wouldn't need to celebrate Pride.
It causes resentment
It does? What, because we're not celebrating emergency workers in quite the same way or because, something else?
Last month we had international nurses day and odp day (operating theatre staff). The result is I now have all the non clinical staff saying no body cares about them and why isn’t anything done to recognise their contribution to the working of the hospital
Here's where you can start to recognise the hard work put in by emergency workers - everyone should write to their MP demanding better pay for NHS staff. I have, have you?
Also, does
It causes resentment
apply or not apply in the case of the above?
You make my point perfectly. "Equality" is not about actual equality. White pride = bad, Black pride = good. You can make an argument for that, but calling it "equality" is disingenuous (which is what I said in my very first comment on this thread).
I suppose "equalisation" would be a more accurate word.
Interesting/paradoxical argument from twrch. If only for the the problem it has set in my head! I still can’t make head or tail of the argument but it has amused me by presenting a possible paradox.
Firstly I’d need to understand the exact argument and in the exact context.
I suppose “equalisation” would be a more accurate word.
A more accurate word for “equality” in the context of exactly *what*, though??
If you are making the claim that to use the word ‘equality’ automatically means that someone is being disingenuous (rather than naive/less well-educated than @twrch /out of context etc), then you also need to be clear about:
1. The context that they intended (yet weren’t aware of the correct word to use)
Or
2. The subtextual/hidden context they mean to deceive us with (by having purposely inserted ‘equality’ rather than ‘equalisation’)
I’m not sure there’s an equivalence between people who don’t feel as appreciated at work as their colleagues and people who have been stomped on, both literally and figuratively, for decades and longer.
+1
Certain sections of society have been treated appallingly for decades (well longer) and still are to some extent, hence we need positive actions to try to address the inequality. If people really can't get that (or just quietly ignore it) then there's not much hope for them.
@twrch, also, which definition of ‘equality’ are you working from, please?
*Looks out of window – sees dozens of white cis-gender heterosexual males* – if only that community was as accepting as the LGBT+ community then we wouldn’t need to celebrate Pride.
Well, maybe you need to spend less time looking out the window at 'real life' and spend more time looking at facebook and twitter.
That would show you that the only group in society that is actually marginalised is straight white men.
Nope, not just them. I shall be out there celebrating mother's pride.
@p7eaven The "paradox of equality" is a well-understood issue. To make everyone "equal" (for some definition of that word, for example, every station in life has a truly representative proportion of all genders and minorities), you need to treat some groups unequally.
You are right, I suppose, in that I am obtusely refusing to accept the current defintion of "equality" (that is, some groups need treating unequally to correct past and current wrongs). I especially dislike the idea that historical wrongs, and especially those defined by an innate characteristic, need "fixing". Otherwise, where will that end?
I prefer the word "equalisation", because to me it more accurately describes the active process that is happening.
That would show you that the only group in society that is actually marginalised is straight white men.
Just checking, you do actually believe that?
Just checking, you do actually believe that?
On the Non-binary thread I spent pages arguing with 'scientists' and 'doctors' who somehow didn't understand what binary meant. So no, I don't really believe that.
It's funny how you think something is obviously a parody but then you read it back and realise that, nope, there are still plenty out there saying the exact same thing.
Genuine chuckle at this:
Well, maybe you need to spend less time looking out the window at ‘real life’ and spend more time looking at facebook and twitter.
There was a funny highlighted on you tube last night. Set in the US on a lake, we'd a boat with pride flags, being harassed by another boat, simply it seemed because they had pride flags on it, lots of verbal abuse and hand signals.
Karma took over and the abusers boat burst into flames and they needed rescued. 😆
You are right, I suppose, in that I am obtusely refusing to accept the current defintion of “equality”
@twrch thnks for responding. To be clear - I haven’t (yet 😉) attempted to be ‘right’ about anything, am still trying to nail the details/approve the context (with you, ie your working definition vs the definition you claim they are using in the OP)
This in order to clarify/try and understand your argument/contention and also the context. Only in this way might I be tempted to side with your claim that the author (in the OP) is being ‘disingenuous’.
So first off, what is this ‘the current definition’ of “equality” and where may I find it?
Any particular dictionary? Unfortunately I only have access to an old copy of Oxford Modern English (1992)
Does your friend feel like he owes any kind debt to the ‘loud’ rights activists?
My friends (a married gay couple) also don't like the "marching pride" events and the general idea of a Pride Month as a whole. They are both of an age that generally accepted that being gay is something that you hid*, certainly never any PDA, and both are somewhat reserved generally. Their view is that just living their lives as a married gay couple in plain view of the world is enough of a testament to equality, they don't want or expect anything over and above that.
* I'm not for a moment suggesting that this view is normal, or should be acceptable, but the just reality of being a gay man in the recent past.
That would show you that the only group in society that is actually marginalised is straight white men.
As a straight white man I've never had to hide my sexulatilty for fear of being being attacked in a pub. I've never had to hide my sexuality for fear of being ostracised at work or not getting a job in the first place. I've never been stopped by the Police for having white skin. I've never been rejected for a job for having white skin.
Life has been incredibly easy if I'm honest, if only it was so for everyone in society.
@footflaps have a large plus one for both of your recent posts.
Edit. I have a daughter in her early 30's (yes I was a child bride) and she regularly suggests we smash the patriarchy as it is a constant source of toxic masculinity to her. I have hope for the future that her generation will get the necessary changes through.
OK, OK, I've learned my lesson. No more attempts at parodying right wing views.
I promise.
Their view is that just living their lives as a married gay couple in plain view of the world is enough of a testament to equality, they don’t want or expect anything over and above that.
Again, it would be interesting to hear if they felt their current level of acceptance in society would have been possible without Pride events and the vocal activism over the last thirty years.
The wife and I were in the Lake district last year walking in the middle of nowhere (quiet route on the back of the Dodds). Coming off the fell we could see two men sat by the path with their arms around each other, just sat there. As we approached they separated and then once we passed I assume they went back to putting an arm around each other's backs.
The fact they felt uncomfortable just doing that in the middle of nowhere tells you how far we stil have to go.
The fact they felt uncomfortable just doing that in the middle of nowhere tells you how far we stil have to go.
The UK has always been (AFAIK) more socially comfortable with men fighting than hugging when it comes to touch.
I recently lived and worked amongst some Spanish men for a month or so and I was amazed at how physically comfortable they were with (non-sexual) touching each other. They would casually touch, stroke, hug and lay their head on each other’s legs when chilling out.
At first it set off my ‘AHEM, We’re British Here!’ alarm bells ringing. It still feels distinctly weird to hug any male in my family, and most of my male (Brit) friends.
I know that’s a different issue to OP but I’m sure it all plays into the aggressive attitudes towards ‘girly’ men that we still see from time to time. It’s one of the reasons I think we as a country have more in common with the US than with much of Western Europe.
Some similar observations:
I have hope for the future that her generation will get the necessary changes through.
I'm not sure. It's not specifically about patriarchy but an illustration we have a long way to go, and the thought that the younger generation will be the change may me misplaced.
My daughter had to make a short film/music video as part of her media studies A level. She got my son (15) and his girlfriend (16) to act in it. The behaviour of a group of boys (early to mid teens at a guess) reduced her to tears, wolf whistling and lewd comments. My daughter told them to **** off and grow up. But this was yesterday, Guildford town centre, early evening, lots of people about and not one single (adult) said or did a thing.
I don't know whether it was the fact that it was kids doing the commenting (next generation I assume has learnt it from somewhere, and more than that are being told at school and on media how wrong it is and did it anyway), or the fact that everyone else ignored it.
I went along to a few Pride marches/events in the early 90s, and they were definitely fun, mad, happy times. Then it seemed to get increasingly corporate, and the huge free parties turned into expensive fenced off affairs, thus excluding many people. As with so many things that start out as a celebration of inclusivity, it seems the Pride 'brand' has been hijacked by parasitic concerns, wanting to enhance their own corporate image. I thought this just the other day, when I saw you can now get an Apple Watch band in the 'Pride' rainbow colours. I think a lot of people have lost sight of what Pride is really meant to be about. I wonder what the likes of messrs. Baker, Milk and Ginsberg would have to say about it all now?
The Apple connection is because key people in the organisation want to do more than sell things... raising awareness using one of the biggest brands in the world, who have a presence in countries where oppression is not only still ripe, but increasing, isn't about selling out, it's about many individuals in a huge company wanting that company to act, speak out, and not just keep quiet in the name of sales.