MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Just seen some footage, holy shit!!!!
Going to be one hell of a rescue/salvage mission.
😔😲
A tragedy, lovely city who relationship with England dates back to the Crusades.
It's interesting that one of the first responses was "we're going to find out who's responsible and make them pay" instead of "we're going to find out what happened". Very third world attitude, it seems.
Terrible stuff.
It’s interesting that one of the first responses was “we’re going to find out who’s responsible and make them pay” instead of “we’re going to find out what happened”. Very third world attitude, it seems.
Its italy the first assumption is that someone bribed then scrimped on materials. Plus the government has been in austerity for a long time and the public want to blame someone for not spending/employing etc.
Not enough bodies in the footings.....?
Apparently the bridge was being worked on and monitored.
That bridge ain't a recent addition, built in the 60's by an engineer called morandi, who was unfortunately the engineer of another collapsed bridge.
It was pretty much condemned two years ago by modern engineers, and was currently under a large maintenance project.
Unfortunately there's going to be some very awkward questions that need asking, if only they'd been asked prior to today.
Incredibly sad.
In 2016, Antonio Brencich, a professor specialising in reinforced concrete construction at the University of Genoa, called the span “a failure of engineering”.
“That bridge is wrong. Sooner or later it will have to be replaced,” he said. “I do not know when. But there will be a time when the cost of maintenance will be higher than a replacement,”
I drove over it on the way south at the end of 2017 and remember commenting on how poor a condition the bridge was in. A terrible thing to happen and I fear the toll will be much worse than they currently are reporting
It is going to be hell in the city for a while. Imagine if the M25 was suddenly shut and the chaos that would cause. It will be similar down there.
Mrs is a bridge engineer and is amazed it’s lasted this long, her worst nightmare though. This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges and has been known to stop and admire bridges all around the world, a proper geek !
Horrible sad news.
However incredible story of one guy who was driving a long the bridge and fell 90m in his car. He was on the news early saying he has no idea how he survived, his cars a wreck but very little injuries, lucky man! I’d be buying loads of lottery tickets!
I think BBC news report just referred to the Italian PM as Antonio Conte. Did anyone else notice? Did he go from Chelsea manager to Italian PM?
Passed through Genoa on the train this afternoon, a very sad and eerie sight seeing the green lorry perched near the end of what’s left of the bridge. It stands so high above the valley, And could be seen for miles.
lucky man! I’d be buying loads of lottery tickets!
I'd be buying the same type of car again as a replacement!
Drove over that bridge only just over 3 weeks ago. I couldn’t believe it when I saw the footage yesterday. You just can’t imagine the terror of those involved in the event. Dreadful.
lucky man! I’d be buying loads of lottery tickets!
I wouldn’t bother, I reckon he’s used up his luck for a while!
Saw some pictures yesterday of workers at the scene and the scale of it was amazing, absolutely massive lumps of concrete dwarfing those in the picture.
I suspect that most of the large multi-disciplinary engineers had teams working late last night reviewing old projects.
There will be a huge number of precast structures from the 60s being inspected in the next few months. I would think that it's possible that sections of our motorway and urban clearway network will be closed.
Personally I can't see it happening over here, highways are pretty proactive on bridge maintenance as a rule.
I was reading about the design and possible flaws, all of which is hearsay at the moment, but even my simple engineering mind can see the plausibility in some of the speculated issues.
Personally I can’t see it happening over here, highways are pretty proactive on bridge maintenance as a rule.
Hammersmith Flyover? That was closed for emergency repairs with less than 24 hours advance warning
M4 Brentford flyover? Currently undergoing concrete repairs, some of it at extremely short notice.
Spaghetti Junction? Been repairing this on and off for at least the last 30 years.
I still stand by my previous statement.
Yeah, why would we be checked again.
M27 was reduced for 6mths near Pompy because of checks and remediation work on a 70’s concrete bridge.. you see it all the time on the motorway network, there’s always at least one bridge covered in netting and tarps..
Be more interested if the councils check tower blocks from the same era to prevent fires etc... 🤔
Mafia involvement has also been talked about too, as in reducing the amount of cement used in the concrete mix to save money.
Terrible event but not going to be the last unfortunately.
A lot of the stuff built in the 50s and 60s was explicitly designed to last only about 30 to 40 years. The expectation was the economic miracle would continue and a new, better bridge/tower block/school would be built as a replacement later on.
Unfortunately the UK has used an unprecedented period of low interest rates to stoke another housing bubble rather than invest in its increasingly outdated infrastructure; Italy and southern Europe are even worse off.
Well that was what I was saying, we are constantly on with maintenance projects on bridges, just because one has fell over in Italy doesn't mean we are going to shut a load over here. You give one example of an emergency closure, a closure that was no doubt needed because of on going monitoring.
That bridge in Italy was highlighted as failing many times in the past, did they shut it, should they have shut it?
That was closed for emergency repairs with less than 24 hours advance warning
Because it was inspected and determined to need urgent works. No fudging og the issue, no excuse. And that doesn't mean it was 24 hours from collapse, UK bridge engineers are a really cautious lot and will take a worst case scenario as the minimum safe standard. (Full disclosure, like MrsNZCol, MrsP is also a bridge engineer who specialises in inspection. She also stops to gawp at bridges, and I can't get away with any sort of bdoge in DIY either. FWIW she did a spell in Dubai inspecting concrete structures out there and they degrade really quickly, so the UAE has more pressing concerns than we do).
This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges
A bit more detail would be useful here.......you can't tell us your wife fears for your safety to that extent and then let us continue using them!
This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges
A lot of the stuff built in the 50s and 60s was explicitly designed to last only about 30 to 40 years. The expectation was the economic miracle would continue and a new, better bridge/tower block/school would be built as a replacement later on.
Unfortunately the UK has used an unprecedented period of low interest rates to stoke another housing bubble rather than invest in its increasingly outdated infrastructure; Italy and southern Europe are even worse off
Most of the bridges over the M6 north of Preston are supported on vulnerable thin iron or concrete pillars. That part of the M6 is of the earliest design as it was built as a series of bypasses for various towns on the A6. This was realised a few years ago and huge concrete barriers were built to deflect vehicles away from them but despite this, a truck almost succeeded in demolishing a bridge a few weeks ago: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44976385
Forth road bridge was shut for 3 weeks was a pain but better to be safe than sorry
Swop some of the structural engineers working on wee extensions they go ott with some specs
I'm a (small) part in a major research project looking at longevity of these types of structures, including concrete that can sense and report when it is deteriorating and even newer concretes that could contain self-healing additives, that like skin, lie dormant for years and years but then in response to damage spring into life and repair damage at source.
It has been very instructive attending meetings and conferences with the architects and engineers involved in major civil engineering projects and understanding exactly what sorts of thought processes go into the design of these projects and how those parameters have changed and are changing in the light of modern materials and philosophies.
I'm not an engineer (I'm a chemist) but I've been incredibly impressed with the folks from the major infrastructure agencies (Highways, Railways, etc.) who want to have structures that are incredibly resilient, so they don't have to be decommissioned for repair and replacement - partly because of the effect that has on the economy (traffic jams, delays in freight moving and so on) but above all so that workers don't need to risk their lives working on structures while 38 tonne trucks whizz past at 50mph. Their 'enemy' is mainly government, who don't have the budgets to build this level of resilience and so when they see the cost of building the proper solution then start cutting corners to hit a price point.
Not saying that's the case here but I suspect the engineering brief for the italian bridge wasn't 'build me the best bridge you can' but 'what's the best you can do for X Bn Lira? Oh, and make it look cool while you're at it'
In this case did the bridge fail or was it the foundation of the tower? I'm not trying to play Devil's Advocate BTW, I was just wondering.
Also, given that the bridge in question was nearly 60 years old, how does that design compare to modern standards assuming that if it were built today the materials would be better? Like I said I know nothing about civils, but from my mechanical engineering eye (where weight is less important and safety factors are higher) the whole thing looks "wrong".
This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges
Without wishing to be rude, your Mrs sounds a bit paranoid. I can't think of any UK highway bridges that warrant avoiding from a safety perspective (and I'm on the technical committe of the CBDG so I know a bit about bridges). https://www.cbdg.org.uk/intro1.asp
In this case did the bridge fail or was it the foundation of the tower?
Let's wait and see shall we?
Natrix, you have any input on this little old bridge that got shoved over the m1 a few months back?
[url= https://s5.postimg.cc/k3v18ykoz/IMG-20180815-_WA0000.jp g" target="_blank">
There are a whole host of reasons the bridge could have failed, from an engineering perspective this is going to be interesting but obviously it's not something to be getting excited about given the circumstances.
Many years ago we were hitting model bridge piers with multiple shaped charges in the same spot to see just how easy it was to bring them down. It wasn't. Won't go into any more detail than that
This is what collapsed
Am I right in thinking that much of the bridge strengthening and concrete barriers we have had added to our network is to do with the rise in Weight of the hgv’s throughout Europe? Both the rise in load and the problem with collision into bridge supports.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-15/what-caused-genoas-bridge-to-collapse/10121848
"Early speculation focused on the structural weakness of the span, with Italy's Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte saying authorities were working on the theory the collapse was due to a "structural failure"."
That was my first thought too. Do I get a prize?
Natrix, you have any input on this little old bridge that got shoved over the m1 a few months back?
Nothing to do with me, looks impressive though.
Am I right in thinking that much of the bridge strengthening and concrete barriers we have had added to our network is to do with the rise in Weight of the hgv’s throughout Europe?
Most of the strengthening has certainly arisen from the increased hgv weights.
From that before/after picture, that long deck looks incredibly badly supported and stayed.
"Nothing to do with me, looks impressive though"
Standing on an 8 lane closed section of the m1 was a very weird feeling, one of those where you wished you had a supercar available for a quick blast in.
[url= https://s5.postimg.cc/uo9k5kwnn/IMG-20180815-_WA0003.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= https://s5.postimg.cc/t97zgv3ab/IMG-20180815-_WA0001.jp g" target="_blank">
Going back to the Genoa bridge, there's already some nasty talk coming from government sources basically slating the operating company, with one stating it as being the most expensive privately run toll roads in Europe with little of that revenue being spent on maintenance.
Tbere must be some very nervous management sitting round at the moment and rightly so.
Their ‘enemy’ is mainly government, who don’t have the budgets to build this level of resilience and so when they see the cost of building the proper solution then start cutting corners to hit a price point.
The 'enemy' is very much the people who vote for those governments. We can't blame a government for 'not having the budget' when they stand for election on the promise that they won't have the budget.
From that before/after picture, that long deck looks incredibly badly supported and stayed.
Do you mean the bit between the cable stayed sections? Looks OK to me.
nasty talk coming from government sources basically slating the operating company
Isn't this the tack of the right wing/populist PM wanting a hate/blame figure for the plebs to focus on?
There has just been an Italian chap on 5LIVE who recently prepared a report on this bridge and others similar. He said that with the benefit of 50 odd years of hindsight that the design was flawed. The concrete in places was in tension rather than compression.
Am I right in thinking that much of the bridge strengthening and concrete barriers we have had added to our network is to do with the rise in Weight of the hgv’s
Bridge strengthening partly HGV and partly just many more vehicles overall. Concrete barriers more a change in society's risk appetite.
The concrete in places was in tension rather than compression.
Pre-stressing compresses the concrete so it can take tensile forces. Not saying the bridge wasn't badly designed, but it did stand for 50 years so I expect the designer understood the basic concepts of structures and stress.
He compressed an extensive study into a 90 second soundbite and basically said that with the benefit of hindsight they wouldn't do it that way now. I guess that over time the material has degraded and the loads have increased/fatigued it.
Like you said, it had stood for 50 years... until yesterday.
Carbonation front issues?
The ‘enemy’ is very much the people who vote for those governments. We can’t blame a government for ‘not having the budget’ when they stand for election on the promise that they won’t have the budget.
Very true - and in the end, we have to fund these via taxation, etc. so finally we get what we are prepared to pay for
(not saying this is the case here, with allegations of scrimping on costs within the budgetary framework, etc.)
Can't help thinking that the projected spend on HS2 might be better used maintaining and enhancing our existing transport infrastructure.
Carbonation front issues?
Or carbonara issues?
If corrosion was a factor more likely to be chloride induced as Genoa is on the coast, but that is still wild speculation......
The ‘enemy’ is very much the people who vote for those governments
Erm...or the press who support (lie for) the winning side, or the winning side who sells itself (lies) the best?
The concrete in places was in tension rather than compression.
The underside of any load bearing beam will be in tension. That's why there is reinforcing steel - THAT is in tension. There is a "limit state of design" for cracking in addition to that for strength (well in the UK there is) which ensures there is limited cracking in the concrete where it is in tension, mostly to prevent ingress of water but also to prevent public alarm - "aagh look its cracking it's going to fall down".
Just going off what the guy who wrote the report on the bridge said.
The implication was that they wouldn’t use concrete in the same way on a modern bridge. I don’t know whether he was referring to the deck, the tower, the structure between the deck and tower or something entirely different.
I suspect that one conclusion will be is that privatising the safety-critical aspects of public infrastructure is a dangerous activity in a similar way to the issues emerging from Grenfell. Contractor bids on the basis of a set-number of hours / estimate / wet-finger for the amount of hours of inspections / remediations to be undertaken within a given period of time and simply bills for those hours - job done. By the time work has been sub-contracted out a few times, no-one will have any responsibility for the structural integrity of the bridge. The defence will be that they inspected the bridge regularly and brought to the attention of the public body anything they found, but the public body will say they didn't have enough money to do the work / were trying to negotiate an 'affordable' solution. Nimrod crash XV230 is another case in point.
Most of the UK infrastructure was built by the Victorians. Sorted. Built to last but not for modern life.
RIP for those that died - this should never happen in any country, never mind Europe.
I’m going to relish going over the QE2 bridge next week. Gives me the shivers at the best of times.... not right keen on bridges me.
Most of the UK infrastructure was built by the Victorians. Sorted. Built to last but not for modern life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Sheffield_Flood
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_Bridge_disaster
Ever since bridges some have been built they have collapsed, due to weather , poor building or overloading etc, its just a fact of life, engineers can test them and design them to withstand terrific forces, but its the abnormal that makes them usually fail.
Sadly a lot of people lost their lives, due to some fault, we as yet dont know of.
I’m going to relish going over the QE2 bridge next week. Gives me the shivers at the best of times…. not right keen on bridges me.
From what I’ve read, the actual design of that bridge was flawed, throwing money at it year on year trying to maintain the structural integrity of something which didn’t have much structural integrity in the first place was a foolish waste of time and money. All bridges need constant maintenance, especially when crossing water, but if the fundamental structure is sound, then the bridge should last for decades without issue. The first Severn Bridge, built in the 60’s is a good example, the actual deck was a completely new concept, and was only adopted after a delay finalising the original design, but set the standard for modern suspension bridges worldwide. Fascinating programme about it on telly recently, my dad took me down to Aust to see it while it was being built, and it’s great to walk and cycle across, a beautiful structure.
RIP to the victims of the collapse.
That was a damn long way to fall.
My family and I drove over it last week on our way back from holidays. It sent a proper shiver down my spine when I realised it was the bridge we drove over. There was a lot of work going on it at the time.
Here’s a quote from an article in New Scientist I’ve just read:
During a recent project on the Hammersmith Flyover, a bridge in London, they attached acoustic sensors to the bridge that heard when strands from the steel cable broke.
“Normally this happens so rarely you can’t be sure if your sensor is working, but with Hammersmith they kept pinging a lot,” says Jackon. This meant that extra steel cables had to be retrofitted to the exterior resulting in a lengthy and costly repair job.
Around Europe many bridges are in a poor state. A report in France from earlier in the year said that a third of the country’s road bridges are in need of repair, with around 7 per cent being more serious with an eventual risk of collapse.
And in Germany, a report from the Federal Highway Research Institute last year found 12.4 per cent of Germany’s road bridges were in bad condition, with around 12.5 per cent considered good.
In the US, a report earlier this year found that 54,000 of 613,000 bridges surveyed were structurally deficient. These bridges are crossed 174 million times each day.
Yeah Hammersmith flyover looked dodgy for years
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/is-the-m4-flyover-safe/
Just the concrete crumbling, but I still wonder, in light of the Genoa tragedy