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Just seen some footage, holy shit!!!!
Going to be one hell of a rescue/salvage mission.
😔😲
A tragedy, lovely city who relationship with England dates back to the Crusades.
It's interesting that one of the first responses was "we're going to find out who's responsible and make them pay" instead of "we're going to find out what happened". Very third world attitude, it seems.
Terrible stuff.
It’s interesting that one of the first responses was “we’re going to find out who’s responsible and make them pay” instead of “we’re going to find out what happened”. Very third world attitude, it seems.
Its italy the first assumption is that someone bribed then scrimped on materials. Plus the government has been in austerity for a long time and the public want to blame someone for not spending/employing etc.
Not enough bodies in the footings.....?
Apparently the bridge was being worked on and monitored.
That bridge ain't a recent addition, built in the 60's by an engineer called morandi, who was unfortunately the engineer of another collapsed bridge.
It was pretty much condemned two years ago by modern engineers, and was currently under a large maintenance project.
Unfortunately there's going to be some very awkward questions that need asking, if only they'd been asked prior to today.
Incredibly sad.
In 2016, Antonio Brencich, a professor specialising in reinforced concrete construction at the University of Genoa, called the span “a failure of engineering”.
“That bridge is wrong. Sooner or later it will have to be replaced,” he said. “I do not know when. But there will be a time when the cost of maintenance will be higher than a replacement,”
I drove over it on the way south at the end of 2017 and remember commenting on how poor a condition the bridge was in. A terrible thing to happen and I fear the toll will be much worse than they currently are reporting
It is going to be hell in the city for a while. Imagine if the M25 was suddenly shut and the chaos that would cause. It will be similar down there.
Mrs is a bridge engineer and is amazed it’s lasted this long, her worst nightmare though. This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges and has been known to stop and admire bridges all around the world, a proper geek !
Horrible sad news.
However incredible story of one guy who was driving a long the bridge and fell 90m in his car. He was on the news early saying he has no idea how he survived, his cars a wreck but very little injuries, lucky man! I’d be buying loads of lottery tickets!
I think BBC news report just referred to the Italian PM as Antonio Conte. Did anyone else notice? Did he go from Chelsea manager to Italian PM?
Passed through Genoa on the train this afternoon, a very sad and eerie sight seeing the green lorry perched near the end of what’s left of the bridge. It stands so high above the valley, And could be seen for miles.
lucky man! I’d be buying loads of lottery tickets!
I'd be buying the same type of car again as a replacement!
Drove over that bridge only just over 3 weeks ago. I couldn’t believe it when I saw the footage yesterday. You just can’t imagine the terror of those involved in the event. Dreadful.
lucky man! I’d be buying loads of lottery tickets!
I wouldn’t bother, I reckon he’s used up his luck for a while!
Saw some pictures yesterday of workers at the scene and the scale of it was amazing, absolutely massive lumps of concrete dwarfing those in the picture.
I suspect that most of the large multi-disciplinary engineers had teams working late last night reviewing old projects.
There will be a huge number of precast structures from the 60s being inspected in the next few months. I would think that it's possible that sections of our motorway and urban clearway network will be closed.
Personally I can't see it happening over here, highways are pretty proactive on bridge maintenance as a rule.
I was reading about the design and possible flaws, all of which is hearsay at the moment, but even my simple engineering mind can see the plausibility in some of the speculated issues.
Personally I can’t see it happening over here, highways are pretty proactive on bridge maintenance as a rule.
Hammersmith Flyover? That was closed for emergency repairs with less than 24 hours advance warning
M4 Brentford flyover? Currently undergoing concrete repairs, some of it at extremely short notice.
Spaghetti Junction? Been repairing this on and off for at least the last 30 years.
I still stand by my previous statement.
Yeah, why would we be checked again.
M27 was reduced for 6mths near Pompy because of checks and remediation work on a 70’s concrete bridge.. you see it all the time on the motorway network, there’s always at least one bridge covered in netting and tarps..
Be more interested if the councils check tower blocks from the same era to prevent fires etc... 🤔
Mafia involvement has also been talked about too, as in reducing the amount of cement used in the concrete mix to save money.
Terrible event but not going to be the last unfortunately.
A lot of the stuff built in the 50s and 60s was explicitly designed to last only about 30 to 40 years. The expectation was the economic miracle would continue and a new, better bridge/tower block/school would be built as a replacement later on.
Unfortunately the UK has used an unprecedented period of low interest rates to stoke another housing bubble rather than invest in its increasingly outdated infrastructure; Italy and southern Europe are even worse off.
Well that was what I was saying, we are constantly on with maintenance projects on bridges, just because one has fell over in Italy doesn't mean we are going to shut a load over here. You give one example of an emergency closure, a closure that was no doubt needed because of on going monitoring.
That bridge in Italy was highlighted as failing many times in the past, did they shut it, should they have shut it?
That was closed for emergency repairs with less than 24 hours advance warning
Because it was inspected and determined to need urgent works. No fudging og the issue, no excuse. And that doesn't mean it was 24 hours from collapse, UK bridge engineers are a really cautious lot and will take a worst case scenario as the minimum safe standard. (Full disclosure, like MrsNZCol, MrsP is also a bridge engineer who specialises in inspection. She also stops to gawp at bridges, and I can't get away with any sort of bdoge in DIY either. FWIW she did a spell in Dubai inspecting concrete structures out there and they degrade really quickly, so the UAE has more pressing concerns than we do).
This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges
A bit more detail would be useful here.......you can't tell us your wife fears for your safety to that extent and then let us continue using them!
This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges
A lot of the stuff built in the 50s and 60s was explicitly designed to last only about 30 to 40 years. The expectation was the economic miracle would continue and a new, better bridge/tower block/school would be built as a replacement later on.
Unfortunately the UK has used an unprecedented period of low interest rates to stoke another housing bubble rather than invest in its increasingly outdated infrastructure; Italy and southern Europe are even worse off
Most of the bridges over the M6 north of Preston are supported on vulnerable thin iron or concrete pillars. That part of the M6 is of the earliest design as it was built as a series of bypasses for various towns on the A6. This was realised a few years ago and huge concrete barriers were built to deflect vehicles away from them but despite this, a truck almost succeeded in demolishing a bridge a few weeks ago: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44976385
Forth road bridge was shut for 3 weeks was a pain but better to be safe than sorry
Swop some of the structural engineers working on wee extensions they go ott with some specs
I'm a (small) part in a major research project looking at longevity of these types of structures, including concrete that can sense and report when it is deteriorating and even newer concretes that could contain self-healing additives, that like skin, lie dormant for years and years but then in response to damage spring into life and repair damage at source.
It has been very instructive attending meetings and conferences with the architects and engineers involved in major civil engineering projects and understanding exactly what sorts of thought processes go into the design of these projects and how those parameters have changed and are changing in the light of modern materials and philosophies.
I'm not an engineer (I'm a chemist) but I've been incredibly impressed with the folks from the major infrastructure agencies (Highways, Railways, etc.) who want to have structures that are incredibly resilient, so they don't have to be decommissioned for repair and replacement - partly because of the effect that has on the economy (traffic jams, delays in freight moving and so on) but above all so that workers don't need to risk their lives working on structures while 38 tonne trucks whizz past at 50mph. Their 'enemy' is mainly government, who don't have the budgets to build this level of resilience and so when they see the cost of building the proper solution then start cutting corners to hit a price point.
Not saying that's the case here but I suspect the engineering brief for the italian bridge wasn't 'build me the best bridge you can' but 'what's the best you can do for X Bn Lira? Oh, and make it look cool while you're at it'
In this case did the bridge fail or was it the foundation of the tower? I'm not trying to play Devil's Advocate BTW, I was just wondering.
Also, given that the bridge in question was nearly 60 years old, how does that design compare to modern standards assuming that if it were built today the materials would be better? Like I said I know nothing about civils, but from my mechanical engineering eye (where weight is less important and safety factors are higher) the whole thing looks "wrong".
This is a lady who makes me avoid certain bridges
Without wishing to be rude, your Mrs sounds a bit paranoid. I can't think of any UK highway bridges that warrant avoiding from a safety perspective (and I'm on the technical committe of the CBDG so I know a bit about bridges). https://www.cbdg.org.uk/intro1.asp
In this case did the bridge fail or was it the foundation of the tower?
Let's wait and see shall we?
Natrix, you have any input on this little old bridge that got shoved over the m1 a few months back?
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There are a whole host of reasons the bridge could have failed, from an engineering perspective this is going to be interesting but obviously it's not something to be getting excited about given the circumstances.
Many years ago we were hitting model bridge piers with multiple shaped charges in the same spot to see just how easy it was to bring them down. It wasn't. Won't go into any more detail than that
This is what collapsed
Am I right in thinking that much of the bridge strengthening and concrete barriers we have had added to our network is to do with the rise in Weight of the hgv’s throughout Europe? Both the rise in load and the problem with collision into bridge supports.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-15/what-caused-genoas-bridge-to-collapse/10121848
"Early speculation focused on the structural weakness of the span, with Italy's Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte saying authorities were working on the theory the collapse was due to a "structural failure"."
That was my first thought too. Do I get a prize?
Natrix, you have any input on this little old bridge that got shoved over the m1 a few months back?
Nothing to do with me, looks impressive though.
Am I right in thinking that much of the bridge strengthening and concrete barriers we have had added to our network is to do with the rise in Weight of the hgv’s throughout Europe?
Most of the strengthening has certainly arisen from the increased hgv weights.
From that before/after picture, that long deck looks incredibly badly supported and stayed.
"Nothing to do with me, looks impressive though"
Standing on an 8 lane closed section of the m1 was a very weird feeling, one of those where you wished you had a supercar available for a quick blast in.
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Going back to the Genoa bridge, there's already some nasty talk coming from government sources basically slating the operating company, with one stating it as being the most expensive privately run toll roads in Europe with little of that revenue being spent on maintenance.
Tbere must be some very nervous management sitting round at the moment and rightly so.
Their ‘enemy’ is mainly government, who don’t have the budgets to build this level of resilience and so when they see the cost of building the proper solution then start cutting corners to hit a price point.
The 'enemy' is very much the people who vote for those governments. We can't blame a government for 'not having the budget' when they stand for election on the promise that they won't have the budget.
From that before/after picture, that long deck looks incredibly badly supported and stayed.
Do you mean the bit between the cable stayed sections? Looks OK to me.