MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Can't believe someone tried to defend the Tories over PPE!
I remember when there were shortages at the beginning of lockdown loads of British companies were coming forward. Now we know why they weren't good enough.
Edukator, do you put a personal cheque in with things like..oohh err...a school place application, a planning permission application ad so on...to 'grease the wheels'? no? then it happens less. Back handers are a part of the culture in a lot of the world.
Edukator, do you put a personal cheque in with things like..oohh err…a school place application, a planning permission application ad so on…to ‘grease the wheels’? no? then it happens less. Back handers are a part of the culture in a lot of the world.
Corruption in the UK happens higher.up the food chain
Our 2nd house is appointed on the basis of money & favours donnated to political parties
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/21/revealed-link-life-peerages-party-donations
Data here
Squirrelking what method would you propose to index corruption?
By how many bribes you have to pay in a week?
Roberto Saviano is a respected investigative journalist and exposed the Camorra in Italy. He's then gone on to detail the coke trade and how they launder the money, through the UK. Remember HSBC?
They received a $1.9 billion dollar fine for previous laundering, they're at it again
https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/12065-hsbc-australia-discloses-potential-money-laundering
*Edit According to the National Crime Agency (NCA), 22-year-old Vlad Luca Filat had no registered income in the United Kingdom, however HSBC records showed that his accounts and living expenses were funded by large deposits from overseas companies, mainly based in Turkey and the Cayman Islands.
Squirrelking what method would you propose to index corruption?
Well Transparency International is a good start.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2019/results/table
Having worked with people who were puzzled by the fact I didn't keep money in my passport for the flight home I know for a fact this country is far from the most corrupt place in the world. Our journalists also aren't jailed for publicising uncomfortable truths. I'm not saying we're perfect by any means but to suggest we are the worst considering the competition is ridiculous.
Interestingly we placed 12th (as pointed out) along with Canada, Austria and Australia whilst our rabid Francophile's beloved land of milk and honey placed joint 23rd with the US.
AS has been explained to you - the corruption in the UK is legal hence it will not show up on those sorts of surveys. Its not petty bribes to officials its the wholesale purchase of the tories to get favourable laws like out incredibly lax money laundering nd tax evasion. Like the new planning laws, like the PPE " purchase"
Rees Mogg and Cameron are to examples whose entire fortunes are based on corruption
TJ was that to me?
If it was I'm not denying any of that, I'm simply taking issue with the folk that seem to think we are the most corrupt country on earth. We're not. Barely even close.
Low level corruption no, high level corruption yes.
The upper echelons of British society is a completely closed shop and is totally corrupt. What they’ve done though is very clever. They’ve totally normalised their corruption so that it’s not even seen as corruption any more
IMHO this, the corruption is at the top but the ‘normal’ people aren’t allowed to play.
So a small amount of big ticket corruption to an entitled few as opposed to everyone doing it in daily life.
With Johnson, Short Cummings and that shower of Tory crooks - yes it is.
The exceptionalism proudly flaunted by Cummmings/ Johnson and the cohort of new Tory MPs is criminal. Not forgetting that Brexit was instigated in part by supporters of non-Dom tax crooks who didn’t fancy where the EU was headed with their tax legislation.
The high level corruption that everyone is getting wound up about happens everywhere as well.
Don't forget that Deutsche Bank have been subjected to a number of fines for what they describe as "lapses". Latest fine is due to allowing Jeffrey Epstein to use the bank for money laundering and hush money. They were only sorry when they got caught:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53324888
Again, money laundering in 2017:
I think there is also a fair amount of shall we say heavy favouritism in awarding small local maintenance contracts.
In general our curruptionn is more sophisticated then many other countries.
All countries are corrupt, the measure is by how much, so perhaps the op’s question should ask how corrupt is the UK?
The stronger the government the more corrupt it is because a majority in parliament allows them to get away with more. This effect will be amplified the weaker the opposition gets.
I think as others have stated this government just don’t care if the general population sees the corruption, bypassing rules and changing the rules to suit themselves, there is no attempt to hide it just contempt for the electorate. I don’t think a majority Corbyn government would have been any different in that regard and I seem to remember Blair’s gov at its height was the same and I’m sure Thatchers 80s gov was also etc...
The issue is not political persuasion it is those in power thinking they are better than those they rule and a healthy dose of British rules are for other people.
Have a good read of Private Eye.
Every issue details corruption on many levels "Rotten boroughs" dealing with the corruption in local councils and "In the back" dealing with high level business graft.
Many of you seem to have rose tinted glasses for looking at other European countries - they have exactly the same kind of stuff going on, and in a lot of cases it is far worse and more widespread.
its the wholesale purchase of the tories to get favourable laws like out incredibly lax money laundering nd tax evasion. Like the new planning laws, like the PPE ” purchase”
This is true of every country. Someone on page 1 commented that in order for capitalism to continue it needs this same sort of cronyism in to operate successfully. The easing of planning requests, the looking the other way with regulations get watered down in draft legislation or side stepped, the appointment of sympathetic MPs...Doesn't make the medicine any easier to swallow, but until everyone recognises that they're in a class war, it'll always go on...which leads to the biggest corruption of all: the usurpation of democracy in order to maintain the status quo.
Many of you seem to have rose tinted glasses for looking at other European countries – they have exactly the same kind of stuff going on, and in a lot of cases it is far worse and more widespread.
We are one of the major financial centres of the world, and operate some of the biggest offshore tax havens in the world - our corruption trumps pretty much everyone's. If a recognised expert in the Italian mafia thinks the UK is even worse that says it all.
I'll just put this here:
Al Yamamah (Arabic: اليمامة, lit. 'The Dove') is the name of a series of record arms sales by the United Kingdom to Saudi Arabia, paid for by the delivery of up to 600,000 barrels (95,000 m3) of crude oil per day to the UK government.[1] The prime contractor has been BAE Systems and its predecessor British Aerospace. The first sales occurred in September 1985 and the most recent contract for 72 Eurofighter Typhoon multirole fighters was signed in August 2006.
Mike Turner, then CEO of BAE Systems, said in August 2005 that BAE and its predecessor had earned £43 billion in twenty years from the contracts and that it could earn £40 billion more.[2] It is Britain's largest ever export agreement, and employs at least 5,000 people in Saudi Arabia.[3]
In 2010, BAE Systems pleaded guilty to a United States court, to charges of false accounting and making misleading statements in connection with the sales.[4] An investigation by the British Serious Fraud Office into the deal was discontinued after political pressure from the Saudi and British governments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Yamamah_arms_deal
These would presumably be some of the weapons being used to bomb schools and hospitals in Yemen (100,000 dead since 2015). Genocide Watch website gives it an alert level of 'Stage 9: Extermination'
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/2020/08/01/Genocide-Emergency-Yemen
As well as committing genocide with our weapons, this is the country that recently murdered a journalist and dismembered him in their embassy, but we can't criticise them too much in case they stop buying.
But yeah - this all pales in comparison to handing out some dodgy building contracts in Italy, cos it's worse when foreigners do it.
And now Pestfix using our money to protect themselves from scrutiny ...
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1291431893389529088?s=21
And now Pestfix using our money to protect themselves from scrutiny …
Everything will be fine.
https://twitter.com/JakeBenRichards/status/1291392214665441286
people who are in power, are there because they crave power, nothing else. I am sure that there is a suitable quote in a superman film about wielding power. Of course, MPs are not supermen, they are just power hungry zealots, who will back stab their friend to gain more power.
AS has been explained to you – the corruption in the UK is legal hence it will not show up on those sorts of surveys. Its not petty bribes to officials its the wholesale purchase of the tories to get favourable laws like out incredibly lax money laundering nd tax evasion. Like the new planning laws, like the PPE ” purchase”
Rees Mogg and Cameron are to examples whose entire fortunes are based on corruption
Of course the monies spent by the EU, Scottish government, Scottish local government, various Scottish quangos is never influenced by corruption, it's spent in a "civic" way.
If you think it's just Westminster doing this you are either thick or biased or lying because you are aware/ involved in it
In the spirit of Lord Boothby, what news of Liam Fox and his best man or Keith Vaz and his washing machines? I'm gagging to find out.
No it’s not. Though that doesn’t mean to say there aren’t plenty of corrupt elements and individuals.
Of course the monies spent by the EU, Scottish government, Scottish local government, various Scottish quangos is never influenced by corruption, it’s spent in a “civic” way.
Please, please don't start TJ off on a rant about corruption within Scottish local government.
It will not end well.
He was into them for half a million quid the last time.
Yes corruption is endemic here it's in your face everyday, in plain sight and has been entrenched for so long that it is not even seen as corruption.
CEO of Serco is a member of the Soames( Churchill) family. Who knew? How many times did the taxpayer have to fork out for the same Churchill papers, which were state property anyway? A:3 £10m+
IDS claimed to have a degree from the University of Perugia (he'd failed the 11+ but did do a language course there). Lord Archer claimed to have won an Oxford Blue (he didn't mention the teacher training bit). Wilson and Eric Miller. Chancers snout trough interface, but nothing new.
IDS claimed to have a degree from the University of Perugia (he’d failed the 11+ but did do a language course there). Lord Archer claimed to have won an Oxford Blue (he didn’t mention the teacher training bit). Wilson and Eric Miller.
The Spanish are good for that too - the leader of the opposition claimed to have studied at Harvard, then it turned out it was a two day course in Madrid... Quite a few others had masters on their CVs (and party web pages) that turned out to be fraudulent. There are doubts about the President's PhD, with claims of plaigarism. (Nothing proved, and the people claiming it are from the right-wing press so not necessarily to be trusted...)
For a local-to-Spain perspective: there's a lot of corruption here, but it's not the cash-in-passport type of corruption that affects your day-to-day life. If you're ever over here and get caught speeding by the local police don't even dream of trying to bribe them - it won't work and you'll only end up in deep shit. (Perhaps if you're willing to hand over 2000€ to get off a 200€ fine you might get away with it, maybe...)
Low-level corruption here is 100% based on friends+family: if your mate's a policeman he might be able to get you off that speeding charge. Advertised jobs often have a particular candidate in mind, who just happens to be a close friend of the department boss. This is the kind of corruption I don't see much of in the UK.
Higher level corruption is also social: you can't just turn up and hand out money and expect to get favours. You need to know someone, who's probably the cousin of the local president, or a close friend of his wife, or whatever. And it's mostly centered around government contracts, adding a couple of % to the contract which then ends up in the hands of the local party who will distribute it to their leaders.
In my personal experience of the UK I was aware of virtually no low level corruption but some extremely cosy relationships between national organisations, public and private. The dropping of one legal case shocked me to the point I realised doing my job was utterly pointless, we were allowed to catch the little fish but told to let the big ones go - that was a director on two boards with conflicting interests. When their job is on the line and their career will almost certainly suffer the little people shut up and do as they are told.
I ran a business in France. I never paid a bribe or received one. There were just two contracts that escaped us for "odd" reasons in 10 years.
We worked for the Prececture (including the préfet), la Mairie, Lindt (I also became an employee for a while), Legrand, Baker Hughes, Trans Ocean, Alstom, Haliburton, Pride, Safran, Messier Douty and many more. Not so much as a bottle of wine at Christmas, no kick backs, zilch.
My Spanish experience mirrors Mogrim. The boss was a shady character who had employed a significant part of his extended family despite or because of their obvious incompetance, especially the accountant. I demanded my final salery in cash on the day I left with thinly veiled threats. My mistrust was justified, the boss did three years in jail a few years later:
https://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/02/16/barcelona/1329409170.html
I agree with so much of what is said on this thread.
Kerley, Pondo, Cheesybeanz, Perchy, Binners, Fatmountain,
Depressing state of affairs. We are meant to be evolving not getting even more lawless and corrupt!
My Spanish experience mirrors Mogrim. The boss was a shady character who had employed a significant part of his extended family despite or because of their obvious incompetance, especially the accountant. I demanded my final salery in cash on the day I left with thinly veiled threats. My mistrust was justified, the boss did three years in jail a few years later
Lol, I also worked for Brighton for a while. And indeed the boss in the main Madrid school was an "enchufado", clearly a close friend of the owner with no real abilities or qualifications. Thankfully left a few years before the shit hit the fan!
I think it probably days as much about my perspective as anything but corruption in the UK just seems so much more insidious and hidden in plain view than some countries.
I remember the cash machine adverts from a few years back. Do you remember them, a pair of animated eyes looking at you then it goes on to basically say you are as much a bastard for not declaring that £15 you earn from the cleaning job as the guy defrauding millions with creative accounting.
In a way it's right I suppose but it just said to me that the focus was on the little guy rather than going after the people that are really milking the system.
In a way it’s right I suppose but it just said to me that the focus was on the little guy rather than going after the people that are really milking the system.
The problem of course is that the people really milking the system have the access and the power to ensure that the system doesn't change, or even making it change to their benefit. There's a reason Amazon pays hardly any tax, while local independent high street retailers are dying. Is this corruption? Dunno, but it's certainly whiffy.
The other slight complication is that much of this stuff is, or is made, legal. I'm sure they'll excuse away the wasted millions on non-existent PPE, Boris's Spiffing Spaffometer, idle track and trace offices. You'll see.
The owner's British wife, a delightful lady, used to rock up on public transport with a young child in the pushchair and work from a desk in the corridor from dawn to late. Alfredo rolled up around 10 in his 7-series and drove into the building. He went directly to his wood-lined office and received people if they couldn't be fobbed off by his wife or the accountant. He was helpful when we needed advice about a problem with our bank.
Alfredo rolled up around 10 in his 7-series and drove into the building.
Probably declared as a business asset in order to pay next to no tax, but used it as a private car. Its why for many years only business owners could afford nice cars. The classic " a nombre de la empresa". As well as his partners cars, and the mobile phone plans of all the family.
And his partner's push chair?
I always used my own car and billed the business for the 1000km or so I drove for business. When the lady from the fisc was going through my accounts she started grilling me about how I visited so many companies with so few kms, my bike I explained. Then she found a bus ticket which I explained was when I broke my collar bone. It then took half an hour of my time (and my no cheap accountant's time) to produce the document signed by the client that day to prove that the time stamp on the bus ticket tallied.
In response to OP, Is the UK a corrupt country?
Nah!
Any backhanders or nepotism is this country is nothing.
My partner's work colleague in Uganda was having a C-section when the doctors stopped and wouldn't continue until a bribe was received. The baby did not survive!!
I could not believe or fathom this. But a quick google into the situation there shows institutionalised corruption and bribery is the norm.
https://www.u4.no/publications/uganda-overview-of-corruption-and-anti-corruption-2018
Quote from the paper says - Paying bribes is a regular part of daily life in Uganda. Thirty-eight per cent of people said that they paid a bribe for a public service in the previous year.
So in comparison the UK is not corrupt.
So in comparison the UK is not corrupt.
That excludes low level corruption but not higher level which, if anything, is more corrosive to society.
The Reverend and Right Honourable Prebendary Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint former Minister of State for Trade and Investment, Chairman of HSBC and Anglican priest.
When he became chief executive of HSBC in 2003 the bank closed Birmingham, Sheffield, Brentwood and Swansea and offshored the work to India, Malaysia and China within two years which cost us over 4,000 jobs. When he became Chairman of HSBC in 2005 he allowed money laundering for the Taliban and Mexican cartels, mainly the Sinaloa until 2010. The bank was fined $1.9 billion.
He then went on to become Minister of Trade as well as the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for David Cameron, he wasn't paid for these positions but instead he was given a peerage so that he'd be "accountable" to Parliament and have a guaranteed income for the rest of his life.
Just because we're not asked for bribes on a daily basis for essential services doesn't mean that we as a country are not corrupt, the money that flows through our economy isn't clean and it's way more than changes hands on the streets in Africa, Asia and South America.
It also exposes our colonial and racial biases as and it's English speaking white countries which are raking it in, whilst we point our fingers at the poor people.
So in comparison the UK is not corrupt.
Often called ‘black or white’ fallacy.
‘That’s not a knife...THIS is a knife’
‘You think that’s cancer? THIS is cancer’
To be fair, the question/thread title was presented as ‘either/or’, and lacks a working definition/threshold of what might constitute a ‘corrupt’ country?
The UK is rated highly by most international indexes on anti-corruption policies in government. For instance, the leading NGO, Transparency International, assigns it a score of 82 (out of a maximum 100 points) and ranks it as the eighth least corrupt country globally.
Note: ‘8th least corrupt’ =/= ‘not corrupt’
Factor in (As BillMC illustrates)
The other slight complication is that much of this stuff is, or is made, legal
This is an ‘interesting‘ read
I think the most telling comments on this thread are the ones stating incredulity at the brazenness of the current lot.
It's almost as if we deep down expect corruption and lining of mates pockets, but the unspoken deal is that the facade of respectability should not be broken. No envelopes of cash or contracts directly to chums. No the British will mostly turn a blind eye so long as it's not too overt... So perhaps we're only noticing what they want us to notice? (dead cats and all that)...
I watched the first of the beebs Murdoch dynasty programs last night, where they were running back over phone hacking, the news of the world, the chipping Norton set and the Sun fronted propaganda machine that dropped Brown for Cameron and (arguably) changed the course of an election in order to ensure a media merger could go ahead...
If you think that the corruption starts when they get in power, and is 'just' limited to some cheeky nudges to procurement of NHS consumables, guess again. In order to get in that position some pretty significant promises already have been made already, the sort that affect our legislative and cultural integrity...
Holy shitting bugger, the scale of this (haven't fact checked it myself yet so take with a pinch of salt):
From GoodLawProject.org posts:
£252m to Ayanda Capital, registered in Mauritius for tax purposes. PPE not delivered
£186m to Uniserve. PPE not delivered
£116m to P14 Medical Supplies, with assets of just £145. PPE not delivered
£108m to PestFix, with just 16 employees. PPE not delivered
£107m to Clandeboye Agencies, a sweet wholesaler. PPE not delivered.
£40m to Medicine Box Ltd, with assets of just £6000. PPE not delivered.
£48m to Initia Ventures Ltd, which registered itself as “dormant” in March. PPE not delivered.
£28m to Monarch Acoustics, which makes shop furniture. PPE not delivered
£25m to Luxe Lifestyle, which has no employees, no assets, and no turnover. PPE not delivered
£18m to Aventis Solutions, which has total assets of £332. Not a typo, £332. PPE not delivered
£10m to Medco Solutions, incorporated just 3 days after lockdown, with share capital of (not a typo) £2. PPE not delivered
In all, approx £1bn to suppliers for PPE that hasn’t been delivered
Is it incompetence or corruption or both?
Edit: Adding links as I find
https://www.ft.com/content/7fe7c2d5-24df-431b-9149-50417fa0236a
Check the #TheWeekInTory on Twitter. @russincheshire does a nice summary of related news.
This ought to bring down the government. It won't.
I watched the first of the beebs Murdoch dynasty
Great series - my lad wanted to watch it, glad I joined him. The seeds of today's "corruption" were sown 25 years ago, and it's the Press that hide it/distract us from it
cookeaa
SubscriberI think the most telling comments on this thread are the ones stating incredulity at the brazenness of the current lot.
It’s almost as if we deep down expect corruption and lining of mates pockets, but the unspoken deal is that the facade of respectability should not be broken.
I'm not shocked by the financial corruption, it's inevitable when you have shitehawks in power. But even I'm shocked by the PPE scandal. The corruption, the money, is an absolute sideshow in that, the real story is the people it has directly and inevitably killed.
I'm not happy about financial corruption, don't get me wrong, but it's a different level.
This about sums it up
https://twitter.com/NIAbbot/status/1292060545265303552?s=19
I don't know what the answer is, what with the major players in the press being largely compliant, the majority of the general public not giving a shit (either because they're rabid Tories or more worried about putting food on their table)
I’m not happy about financial corruption, don’t get me wrong, but it’s a different level.
And it was nicely hidden behind the "outrage" of £900k on painting a Voyager. It's a masterclass in distraction politics - wave a red flag over here, concentrate on lining your mates' pockets over there.
History will see the post cold war era as the Murdoch era.
Interestingly with regards to the procurement scandals, A talk radio clip popped up in my Youtube feed, can't remember the host's name (he looks like Penfold's even sweatier brother) but he was interviewing Peter Hitchens and he got quite animated about the corruption with regards suspension of competitive tendering. Ordinarily the host is the nothing to see here type so I was a little surprised.
We send the EU £350m a week, let's spaff it to our mates on the likes of defective and undelivered PPE instead! 😮
Yes all governments align contracts to their school mates or people who will get them a job after politics.
Labour are just as good at it as the Tories
Citation needed
The only good thing coming out of this, I never really understood Lewis Carroll as a maker of documentaries.