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TJ - banking system I agree UK is a world leader there
Politicians? Our boys are just dipping their grubby little toes in the water compared to most other countries, southern Europe included. All other countries have elites and privilege too, very few places are good at social mobility. Not saying the UK is good just don't underestimate the global reach of avarice.
People get all hissy on here if you suggest you want to pay your plumber in cash! 🙂
So we're probably not that corrupt.
Acoba.
I do believe it is. And so does George Monbiot
On that type of corruption we are one of the worst in the world
Based on the methodology they post, the CPI is more focused on the sort of corruption you are referring to, particularly on 'Political integrity' and 'dirty money' and I'd trust their assessment over individuals perceptions.
So the UK isn't close to one of the worst in the world.
Doesn't mean things aren't getting worse, or that there's not a lot of work to do to get better.
So we’re probably not that corrupt.
It's simple... the people of the UK, in my experience, are pretty much free of corruption... and I would include civil servants in that... where as the corruption of the team now at the heart of the UK government are gangsters and spiffs working in the interests of their paymasters and business parters, and they don't even seem to feel the need to hide their corruption... it's rubbed in our faces.
So the UK isn’t close to one of the worst in the world.
Based on data collected before this "government" got its "do what we like" majority?
The point is in Westminster the corruption is legal. Its not " dirty money" Its tiotally legal to hire an MP as a consultant on a million quid a year, give them no work to do and then wait for the laws favourable to you to roll in. Thats why it does not appear in corruption lists - its been legalised
And so does George Monbiot
Yeah, but would you trust a man with those sideburns?! 😀
dannyh
SubscriberIndeed. What it is very convenient for the ‘government’ to do is portray all red tape as bad.
While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course
A corrupt country? Jury's out for me.
A corrupt government? Worst I'm aware of since I came into the world in late '73.
There's a balance to be struck. If the government had put PPE procurement out to a 3 year tender process and then awarded the contract to BAE Systems for delivery in 2026 at 1000x the price of Bob on the market would the taxpayer have got better value for money? Would The Guardian be moaning - yes? BAE Systems would definitely spin up a new Ltd company with no other turnover to do the work.
In your personal life you might well hire a builder because you know them from the pub or you went to school with them and so are confident they'd do a good job. It's not necessarily a bad thing, our trust is so low we instinctively assume the worst.
I'm just worried we're turning into a culture where it's more important to be seen to do the right thing than to actually do the right thing.
While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course
A price worth paying, obviously.
Where you have people you will have corruption of one kind or another
Depress yourself with the slightly tin foil hat www.recusant-nine.com
For the Rossendale dwellers the £10million "empty homes" scandal and the Futures Park clean up that wasn't etc etc
The point is in Westminster the corruption is legal. Its not ” dirty money” Its tiotally legal to hire an MP as a consultant on a million quid a year, give them no work to do and then wait for the laws favourable to you to roll in. Thats why it does not appear in corruption lists – its been legalised
Good job hollyrood is a shining beacon of hope supported by Scottish local government exceptional track record
its hugely depressing. For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests. Those who fund the party get to have the most say.
But none of this is really a surprise and the public voted the way the media steered them.
I’m just worried we’re turning into a culture where it’s more important to be seen to do the right thing than to actually do the right thing.
Er... so paying millions to shell companies owned by your mates to not deliver anything... leaving people at risk for months... is that doing the right thing...? Taking millions of pounds from property developers, and then proposing the law be changed so that the little people can't challenge them... is that doing the right thing? Elevating your brother and your financial backers to the house of Lords... is that doing the right thing?
A late friend, a very bright socialist who happened to have two little building companies west of London, a pub in the west of Ireland as well as being an academic writer. I asked him about any corruption in planning etc. He said there was an envelope with £500 (1990s) that never stopped going round. He said the only time someone refused it he'd wished the ground had opened up beneath him. The costs just got passed onto the consumer. Only anecdotal but I took it seriously coming from him.
Very corrupt from the subtler use of the old boy network and establishment doing favours for each other to the other more blatant end of party funding and cushy jobs for ex ministers.
It goes back decades if not longer it’s just becoming more blatant and even more consequence free of caught such as the recent planning permission case well as the ones highlighted by the op
The Transparency International Corruption Index has us at no. 12, out of 180, so really not that bad.
If you've ever lived in, or done business in countries towards the bottom of the index, you'll understand that we do very well.
Big things in our favour are a free press, so all the examples of corruption cited above are actually in the public domain. Corruption here can't be that bad, or the journalists would be dead. Like they are in Russia.
Other huge thing is the rule of law. The government don't hire the judges. They were successfully challenged over their decision to prorogue Parliament. They lost. The Jenrick planning decision was challenged and upheld, so he's been 'caught' and forced to a. change the decision and b. explain his actions to Parliament (and the press).
There's also a free and fair electoral system in the UK. There are limitations, but corruption is definitely not one. So we're pretty good there too. If people don't like the actions of politicians, you can vote freely. Try doing that in Libya at the moment.
In short, there will be a vote in a few years time and politicians will be accountable for their actions:
- in the press
- at the ballot box
In the meantime, they're still accountable to an independent judiciary.
And maybe the actions of their unelected advisors will affect the vote too.
The problem is that the electorate see all this and still choose what they choose. That's not corruption though.
And finally, to really play devil's advocate. During a national health emergency, faced with the fatal consequences of a lack of PPE, do you:
A) Follow the approved Government procurement process, using full due diligence and open tendering, scheduled to last several weeks at best, and by the time it's finished the 'winner' may not have any PPE anyway
Or
B) Take up the offer from an old school mate who may or may not be able to help, but seems to know what he is talking about and could have some gear with you in a week at not much over market value?
In the circumstances. is Option B really that bad? It may not turn up, it may be over-priced and it may be crap, but at least it's trying something. The rush for PPE was an appalling situation, but definitely needed addressing urgently.
Basically, the view of corruption seems to come down on whether you see things as glass half empty or full.
Not sure I can be bothered to detail C, D & E for your strawman. Someone else can.
Ah, sod it…
C) reply to the UK companies already providing PPE that are offering to ramp up at speed
D) accept the offer of at scale Europe wide procurement from the EU
Someone else can do more if they want… I’m off on the bike now…
I’ve spent the last 30 years doing business with companies in just about every country I can think of. I know we love to whinge and complain. But compared to the vast majority of those countries the uk is squeaky clean. Ultra clean. But of course, there are exceptions. I don’t think there is such a place as a country without corruption.
ajaj, you wrote...
There’s a balance to be struck. If the government had put PPE procurement out to a 3 year tender process and then awarded the contract to BAE Systems for delivery in 2026 at 1000x the price of Bob on the market would the taxpayer have got better value for money? Would The Guardian be moaning – yes? BAE Systems would definitely spin up a new Ltd company with no other turnover to do the work.
A proper public sector tender process with multi million £ value would typically take c6 months.
Given the circumstances, no-one is suggesting the requirements should have been tendered in an OJEU compliant process but...
Contracts awarded without competition – based on ’emergency procurement’ argument; fair enough.
Contracts awarded to companies with no experience and contacts with Tory party – stinks of corruption.
Ooh look, an opportunity to rip-off the taxpayer; I’ve got no experience of what’s required but that’s no problem.
and
In an emergency you would always look to someone who knows what they’re doing so using proven suppliers would have been the default choice – known quantity, relevant expertise, logistics and payment terms in place.
That didn’t happen; there were conscious – and probably, guided – decisions on contract awards.
I’m amazed there haven’t been any challenges under the procurement regs from other ‘economic operators’ unless they’re scared off by the possibility of being excluded from future tenders or having existing contracts terminated; illegal under the regs but where there’s a will…I’ve sourced from China and it’s likely that contracts would require 25 – 30% upfront with the balance to be paid at time of shipping; this provides little or no redress in event of short delivery or faulty goods.
I would be surprised if escrow a/cs were used or if the companies involved in this used procurement agents on the ground in China.
But compared to the vast majority of those countries the uk is squeaky clean
Apart from being one of the main centres for money laundering for thieving dictators/oligarchs/organised crime you mean?
In the circumstances. is Option B really that bad? It may not turn up, it may be over-priced and it may be crap, but at least it’s trying something. The rush for PPE was an appalling situation, but definitely needed addressing urgently
Sounds like a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome. Listen to yourself. Why was there such a rush for PPE btw?
Did you watch War Dogs? The kids did deliver haha.
Have worked over many countries. The UK is a paradise to do business in compared to most of the EU / US. Don't even have to travel to third world to experience pain. Try Japan for a laugh!
its hugely depressing. For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests. Those who fund the party get to have the most say.
Ha, I never thought of it like this. Absolutely hit the nail there.
Blackflag
SubscriberFor years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests.
Yup. Miliband's greatest failing- when Cameron kept throwing "you're funded by the unions" he said "I know, isn't it terrible" instead of "Aye, we're funded by normal working people, and proud of it. You're bought and paid for by millionaires and hedge funds, and you give them peerages for it"
From the article faerie linked on the previous page
Saviano said that there was a hidden danger of voting to leave the European Union that was little discussed. He said if the UK left the EU, it would undermine joint attempts to fight illegal economies
Yes, but it wasn't hidden so far as I understood, it's why the ERG were so keen to leave and funded a campaign to convince the voters.
andreweay,
What you've just written is perhaps the best apology for corruption I've ever seen.
Wether the country is corrupt is one thing. What's for sure is this Gov't is the most corrupt we've had in my 50 years and getting more blatantly corrupt by the day.
Internationally, Post Brexit Britain will be seen as a corrupt country, irrespective of how uncorrupt the country is as a whole. This Gov't however is exceptionally corrupt and that's their brand, it is the image they have painted on the plane and its going to tarnish us all.
While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course
Incidentally, of course, all this new (and totally unnecessary) red tape will create lots of opportunities for spivs go-ahead chaps to set up 'consultancies' to guide existing SMEs through said red tape.
The city and:
https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/tax-havens-for-millionaires-around-the-world-2019-11
I think there are a few people (P-Jay) confusing a SEVERE lack of social mobility with corruption. we don't have social mobilty, and i reckon its getting worse at the moment, and tht is very VERY bad, however tht is a different issue to corruption imv. we don't have an accepted system of patronage, or baksesh, yes it happens but it isn't an accepted cultural thing. which makes it feel worse but it does happen a LOT less here I think.
but it does happen a LOT less here I think
Than where?
At the level I live and work at we are a long way off most of the places I lived in the Caribbean.
At a level where I suffer the consequences of misdeeds way above me then **** yeah.
Than where?
Plenty of places. Russia for a good start. Got a mate in Malaysia, nothing gets done without a bribe there. I know you like to shit on this country as often as possible but at least try to get some perspective. Old boy networks are nothing special, look at Ivy League US, exactly the same. We may be many a thing but most corrupt country in the world we are not, and I'd take the word of someone objectively indexing corruption over a hysterical [s]journalist[/s] opinion writer.
Can't believe someone tried to defend the Tories over PPE!
I remember when there were shortages at the beginning of lockdown loads of British companies were coming forward. Now we know why they weren't good enough.
Edukator, do you put a personal cheque in with things like..oohh err...a school place application, a planning permission application ad so on...to 'grease the wheels'? no? then it happens less. Back handers are a part of the culture in a lot of the world.
Edukator, do you put a personal cheque in with things like..oohh err…a school place application, a planning permission application ad so on…to ‘grease the wheels’? no? then it happens less. Back handers are a part of the culture in a lot of the world.
Corruption in the UK happens higher.up the food chain
Our 2nd house is appointed on the basis of money & favours donnated to political parties
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/21/revealed-link-life-peerages-party-donations
Data here
Squirrelking what method would you propose to index corruption?
By how many bribes you have to pay in a week?
Roberto Saviano is a respected investigative journalist and exposed the Camorra in Italy. He's then gone on to detail the coke trade and how they launder the money, through the UK. Remember HSBC?
They received a $1.9 billion dollar fine for previous laundering, they're at it again
https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/12065-hsbc-australia-discloses-potential-money-laundering
*Edit According to the National Crime Agency (NCA), 22-year-old Vlad Luca Filat had no registered income in the United Kingdom, however HSBC records showed that his accounts and living expenses were funded by large deposits from overseas companies, mainly based in Turkey and the Cayman Islands.
Squirrelking what method would you propose to index corruption?
Well Transparency International is a good start.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2019/results/table
Having worked with people who were puzzled by the fact I didn't keep money in my passport for the flight home I know for a fact this country is far from the most corrupt place in the world. Our journalists also aren't jailed for publicising uncomfortable truths. I'm not saying we're perfect by any means but to suggest we are the worst considering the competition is ridiculous.
Interestingly we placed 12th (as pointed out) along with Canada, Austria and Australia whilst our rabid Francophile's beloved land of milk and honey placed joint 23rd with the US.
AS has been explained to you - the corruption in the UK is legal hence it will not show up on those sorts of surveys. Its not petty bribes to officials its the wholesale purchase of the tories to get favourable laws like out incredibly lax money laundering nd tax evasion. Like the new planning laws, like the PPE " purchase"
Rees Mogg and Cameron are to examples whose entire fortunes are based on corruption
TJ was that to me?
If it was I'm not denying any of that, I'm simply taking issue with the folk that seem to think we are the most corrupt country on earth. We're not. Barely even close.
Low level corruption no, high level corruption yes.
The upper echelons of British society is a completely closed shop and is totally corrupt. What they’ve done though is very clever. They’ve totally normalised their corruption so that it’s not even seen as corruption any more
IMHO this, the corruption is at the top but the ‘normal’ people aren’t allowed to play.
So a small amount of big ticket corruption to an entitled few as opposed to everyone doing it in daily life.
With Johnson, Short Cummings and that shower of Tory crooks - yes it is.
The exceptionalism proudly flaunted by Cummmings/ Johnson and the cohort of new Tory MPs is criminal. Not forgetting that Brexit was instigated in part by supporters of non-Dom tax crooks who didn’t fancy where the EU was headed with their tax legislation.