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I'm sure you've all heard about it: Pestfix, a company worth £19,000, was awarded a PPE contract for £100m. Contracts are being doled out without tender, oversight or transparency. Investigative reporting by The Guardian/DemocracyNow shows that these companies often have links back to the leave campaign sponsors and donors and in some cases are friends or associates of Boris/Cummings/Gove etc. There's always been corruption in this country, but it at least tried tried to present itself as legitimate. The current lot don't even bother with that, yet they seem to be operating with impunity. Is this the new normal?
Corrupt? Absolutely.
This isn't the new normal, it's just normal.
I am reminded of comments made years ago in the Hitchhiker's Guide...
Anyone capable of getting themselves elected should on no account be allowed to do the job.
The role of the President of the Galaxy also seems strangely relevant these days. The intention of the role being to distract people from the exercise of power and not to actually wield it.
Yes, we are just somewhere on a moving scale of corruption compared to others. What more interesting is how its normal and open in some countrys, hidden and frowned on in others.
Is that a serious question?
Of course it's corrupt.
See also: Jenrick and that porn baron's flats last month...
No doubt in my mind.
Makes me really want to pay attention in all the anti bribery/corruption training/exams I have to do.
I think it’s all EU mandated stuff though, which would explain a lot.
Is the UK a corrupt country?
No.
Only some of the arseholes who run some of it.
Countries can't be corrupt. Only people can.
According to modern studies, the Top 10 tax havens include corporate-focused havens like the Netherlands, Singapore, Ireland and the U.K., while Luxembourg, Hong Kong, the Caribbean (the Caymans, Bermuda, and the British Virgin Islands) and Switzerland feature as both major traditional tax havens and major corporate tax havens. Corporate tax havens often serve as "conduits" to traditional tax havens.(wiki)
Who pays the Conservative party? Who paid for their adverts (shown to be full of lies)? All no10 policy decisions seem to come down to that.
No.
Only some of the arseholes who run some of it.
Countries can’t be corrupt. Only people can.
If the top is corrupt enough, though, it means everything further down is corrupted to the point where the whole country is, effectively, corrupt.
Mobutu in Zaire is the best example of a Kleptocracy, where there were so many Mr Ten Percents at every stage of getting anything done that nothing ever actually got done. And the people below the lowest level where taking a 10% was worthwhile were effectively ungoverned. Except when any form of organised dissent appeared, of course.
The UK is corrupt and it is getting worse. The main empowering factor that allows people to make obscene amounts of money is to have a marginally less obscene amount of money to start with. Connections help too.
Politcally, very e.g. we allow overseas donations to polictal parties, you can buy peerages, lobbying is totally unregulated.
In day to day commercial transactions, much less so that other countries, although obviously it exists.
However, on a scale of 1 to Nigera, we're about a 2.
"We" vote for politicians who are corrupt and they help their non-politicians mates (who are probably even more corrupt) with back handers, policies and laws that assist them and so on.
I'd say no compared to many others. that's not to say corruption doesn't happen, it does, everywhere in our society, but I'd say its not as common as many places....its not an accepted part of our culture unlike a lot of countries. We probably aren't the best/least corrupt, but I reckon we are much closer to it than the other end of the spectrum.
In a way it makes it worse when it does happen...we have more right expect better and tend to be outraged and p**'d off more as a result!
the current bunch do need better scrutiny than they appear to be getting... Still glad i live here generally though.
Westminster and most councils are extremely corrupt - far worse than most european countries.
It's getting worse, in the olden days if you got caught with your fingers in the till you'd have to resign to a nonexec director position somewhere, these days we've imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that's not going to improve.
I would say that across quite a lot of the world (although the US does take a lead followed by the UK), immorality for the rich and powerful has been legalised, while poverty is becoming more and more criminalised.
Whether you consider that corruption may depend on your point of view.
Westminster and most councils are extremely corrupt – far worse than most european countries.
Depends on how you view it, imo the whole system is corrupt in the uk, where it is just benefits the few and they don't need to break the law. Where as in lots of Europe the local mayor or councils can have undue influence, taking bribes etc to allow illegal housing developments. The effects are rather similar for the majority of society, whether it is legalised or systemic corruption.
We're way worse than the banana republics bevause it's institutionalised.
Capitalism is front and centre though. Who needs an empire if you control the capital?
The whole system is rigged. We all know it but press on because it feels too big to conceptualise.
The low-IQ'ers will go "you bloody communist" for pointing this out. When they know full well that communism's a failure too, and that there are loads of potential systems, not just the two.
Unfortunately, nowt is going to change without popular violence. Period.
If you think voting is going to change things you've fallen for one of the cons. Government is middle management for the rich.
Is there a country that isn't corrupt!?
It's just degrees of corruption.
TJ the CPI doesn't bear out your assertion. Northern European countries score similar or slightly better but Spain for example has a pretty open system of patronage.
It's the top where the damage is being done, it's not endemic in daily life like a lot of countries (yet)
In comparison to Russia, Africa and the Middle East, we’ve still got a way to go but also a long way From the Nordic countries too.
The most worrying trend I see is that we all assume that it's faceless institutions that are corrupt rather than actual individuals who should probably go to jail for it.
Those individual can seemingly hide behind the anonymity and protection of the country / the government / Westminster / the council etc without any real fear of personal liability and retribution.
"But, everyone does it!" shouldn't be a defence.....but it is because we, the people,* tolerate it as such.
* Yes, I am fully aware of the irony of suggesting a faceless collective should be holding individuals to account.
the stabiliser - that will be because much of the corruption is hidden in plain sight. All those MPs with second and third "jobs" where they are paid huge sums for 2 hours a year - that will not show up as corruption but it is.
Oh I see, of course, you'd best get on to transparency international and tell them about the flaws in their method.
Yes, we're easily the most corrupt country in Europe, if not the whole of the developed World.
We (Brits) don't even seem to care, we call it the 'Old Boy network' or something equally disarming which makes it sound almost sweet, but it's scary how small a group our Prime Ministers, Senior Civil Servants and Heads of Business come from. Our First Prime Minister went to Eton, our current Prime Minister went to Eton and 40% of all of our Prime Ministers did. A school with around 1300 students at any time. Most of the rest went to equally prestigious and expensive schools.
Our financial sector is a complete hive of scum and villainy, but again we don't care. We even go so far sometimes as point the finger at Switzerland, Luxembourg and even the Cayman's for dodgy financial practices, but we're in ways much worse. You can't pay more than a few grand into your bank current account in the UK without being asked where it came from, but if you're a War Lord or Drug Producer with hundreds of millions, we'll take it, no questioned asked.
If you're in business and you give a gift to a client you have to complete a Bribery Act Risk Assessment, but if your the chancellor and you want to sell off the Royal Mail to an old friend as a deal that gave no benefit to the tax payer, no one cares, todays PPE back-hander is the new Iraq Oil contract, or security contract, or Bank Bail out.
A fish rots from the head down?
In any case, yes, it's this sense of it getting much worse. Her Majesty's government has always suffered from corruption, in fact, most of it was institutionalised, so in many ways hidden in plain sight. What feels different now is just how blatant it is. It's feels much more like the level of corruption you'd see in 'developing' countries.
"If we were to ask which country is the most corrupt in the world, the first answer to come to mind would be dictated by the perceived level of corruption. Perhaps one might think of Mexico, of South American countries, of African countries, of the Middle East or Italy. But the most corrupt is the UK."
Roberto Saviano
This is worth a read...
Just pick any two random wrong'uns from the world of politics, finance, business, media etc, etc and they'll somehow be connected ie: went to Eton and Oxbridge together, a former business partner of... worked as an advisor too... is married to the sister of...
The upper echelons of British society is a completely closed shop and is totally corrupt. What they've done though is very clever. They've totally normalised their corruption so that it's not even seen as corruption any more
Yes, we’re easily the most corrupt country in Europe, if not the whole of the developed World
Italy?
Also for 'rest of the world', Trump's doing a decent job of catapulting the US well ahead of the pack. Multi-trillion dollar payouts with virtually no oversight takes some beating.
In the daily scheme of things, not really. We're not a country of shakedowns and bribes, as a rule.
On the political end, absolutely, and the current lot don't even bother to hide it
And in our financial industry, we're one of the absolute worst.
So it kind of depends on how you view it I think.
It’s getting worse, in the olden days if you got caught with your fingers in the till you’d have to resign to a nonexec director position somewhere, these days we’ve imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that’s not going to improve.
This, very much.
It’s the top where the damage is being done, it’s not endemic in daily life like a lot of countries (yet)
And this.
A fish rots from the head down?
It is difficult for corruption to corrupt an otherwise clean system upwards. It has happened, Colombia with the cartels being the best example (although there was a degree of 'traditional' corruption in place at the top prior).
We're actually not that corrupt. 12th best in the world, according to Transparency International:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2019/results/table
France, Spain and Italy are far worse within "old Europe".
Yes and it's getting worse. The brazen attitudes of Cummings in "just ride it out, it'll blow over" with things like Robert Jenrick a) keeping his job and b) now deciding on planning rules, and the PPE contract, are making it worse. There's no longer any accountability for this kind of behaviour, and I think that more than anything indicates corruption.
Russia is most corrupt.
You think Jeff Bezos is world's richest person?
Wrong.
It's Putin
They will only get away with it if the voters don't care.
How many of us have written to your MP's about Pestfix, Prospermill and the other procurement scandals that are now coming to light? How many assiduously read the local newspapers and give your councillors stick? How many would notice if anyone in that system did make a stand?
As per usual, we get the politicians we deserve and things will only get worse if we let them.
Sadly the vast majority of the population either doesn't care or is so cynical that as far as they're concerned 'they're all at it, etc etc' which is basically an excuse for inaction whilst making yourself feel clever.
In my experience most elected officials love to hear from 'normal' people because usually they just get the same dozen or so local nutters who call them daily about Bringing back hanging/UFO's/The Illuminati.
Putin has deadlier rockets too! 🙂
It's laughable that people actually think we are the most corrupt Country in Europe.
In fact, we are one of the least corrupt countries in the World.
Have you ever done business in Italy? That's something pretty shocking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
However, with the current bunch we have in charge, we could quickly slide down that table.
So you've only just come to this conclusion op!!!?
Blimey!
Maybe its corrupt to some degree, I suppose old money holds much of the power in every country. However the widespread endemic corruption I saw in Spain growing up I have not seen here. During the late 200 and early 2010 corruption cases were popping up left and right, strange was the day were a new corruption case was not being discussed or new information on a current corruption case came to light.
gobuchul
MemberIt’s laughable that people actually think we are the most corrupt Country in Europe.
In fact, we are one of the least corrupt countries in the World.
Have you ever done business in Italy? That’s something pretty shocking.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
OK, like I said it depends on where you're looking- that sort of day to day corruption is very obvious and in your face. Whereas the sort of corruption that passes hundreds of millions of quid to companies with no assets so that they can fail to deliver essential PPE that results not just in them making a fortune at taxpayer's expense but directly in the deaths of NHS staff and patients, that's harder to perceive than putting a £50 in your passport but it's not better.
There are two types of corruption being discussed which is whay the differnce of opinion. Yes we have almost no petty graft of mid or low rank public officials needing to be paid off. But Westminster especially but not exclusively the tories is incredibly corrupt. almost all the tory MPs are being paid by multiple businesses to promote the needs of those businesses. Also the fact that tory party donors get their needs meet.
On that type of corruption we are one of the worst in the world
We are also the world centre for money laundering and tax avoidance / evasion which is in itself a form of corruption - expecially when MPs are in it right up to their necks. Rees Mogg runs a tax evasion company. David Camerons family fortune is based entirely of Tax evasion - hence we have some of the laxest laws i the world on tax evasion
these days we’ve imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that’s not going to improve.
Indeed. What it is very convenient for the 'government' to do is portray all red tape as bad. Not necessarily the case. If you delved a bit further back behind each law or requirement you discover the particular bit of malpractice it was created in order to stop. In 99.99% of cases I would reckon it was something along the lines of "to stop profiteering at the expense of safety/competition/environmental damage etc".
This government's bonfire of red tape is just a trojan horse for a race to the bottom. A race they are going to choose to initiate with a No Deal on 31/12/20.
There's an assumption here that capitalism, the exploitation of labour by the owners and controllers of capital, can be made honest, squeaky clean and bereft of corruption. Quite a novel idea really.