[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

We have established clearly that a minority of the population are Christians and that all the major Christian festivals actually are rooted in a far older tradition. For example most of the symbols used at Christmas come from a far older tradition. Most people don't get married in church etc yet you still think its a Christian country.

Not sure that much, if any of that is relevant. Can't be bothered to argue though as I've spent the afternoon at an excellent church service, with an awesome choir organized by my ever-loving and bike-purchasing-tolerant wife, and I don't want to end up with the usual bitter taste of STW in my mouth.

Anyway, it doesn't much matter: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever 🙂

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever

😯 😯 That sounds a bit like something a mass murderer says before pulling the pin; proper sinister!

No offence, like. (especially if you [i]are[/i] a serial killer...)

As an Australian born and raised I must say how surprised how unBritish I found both London and Cardiff. Sitting in the nonEU passport queue I would have not been surprised if I landed in the middle east!
I know that in my country there are various movements to stop Xmas celebrations in public schools as well as in major cities in fear of upsetting minority groups.
I think this is political correctness gone mad.

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log, Italy with a witch flying on a broomstick...

I suppose neither of those countries could be classed as Christian on the STW criteria 🙄

Does it actually matter if we live in a Christian country or not?

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log

Go on?

I think this is political correctness gone mad.

Stark raving bonkers mate. I hope you weren't too traumatised by all those middle-eastern types in the non-EU queue with you. Although if I was you I would bugger-off back to Australia away from all this madness.

Don't forget to tell the all folks back home will you, we wouldn't them coming over here and getting all disappointed like you.

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log

Surely that's on Boxing Day ?

Surely that's on Boxing Day ?

I haven't got a clue what he's talking about.

OK Don S - [i]"regions of the political creation known as Spain, which may or may not identify themselves as independent entities"[/i] Celebrate Christmas with a Shitting Log - happy now 😉

The post-festive crap I assume ?

We have a very thin veneer of Christianity over much older traditions and what little influence the Christian churches have are an fading anachronism

Oh, is that what this is about?

That's easy. We're a largely secular society, it's just that many people within that society don't feel comfortable enough to admit it yet.

It's too late for my generation, but I'm hoping our kids are going to make a stand. Hey, we fixed homophobia, it's someone else's go.

The post-festive crap I assume ?

Which is a distant relative of the British pre Christmas tradition of spouting shite?
Non the wiser Z-11, sorry.

Spain celebrates christmas with a sh*tting log

Oh yes, this is true, though it may only be catalan

DS - Tio de Nadal?

http://www.cocoonbarcelona.com/blog/barcelona-el-cagador

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer ]This?[/url]
[img] [/img]
Catalans. So nothing to do with the Spanish.
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=2141 [/img]

hugor - Member

As an Australian born and raised I must say how surprised how unBritish I found both London and Cardiff.

London and Cardiff can't be unBritish, since they're part of Britain. They can only differ from the version of Britishness in your head.

London and Cardiff can't be unBritish, since they're part of Britain. They can only differ from the version of Britishness in your head

And catalonia cannot be unSpanish nor The Basque country nor benidorm

And catalonia cannot be unSpanish nor The Basque country nor benidorm

Best tell them then.

Catalans. So nothing to do with the Spanish.

Not Spanish ? Do Catalans have to go through non-EU queue ? Those two happy crappers have a touch of the middle-eastern brush about them.

And catalonia cannot be unSpanish nor The Basque country nor benidorm

Best tell them then.

I did, i told them in Spanish too and they pretended not to understand me!

Do Catalans have to go through non-EU queue ?

The French don't have to go through the non-EU queue either and they're not Spanish, your point is ernesto?
Check out the naughty little wink I put after as well and the fact that some of the Catalans themselves might have a different viewpoint.

I did, i told them in Spanish too and they pretended not to understand me!

Little buggers, the lot of them.
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=2140 [/img]

We have established clearly that a minority of the population are Christians

No we haven't. You've made that assertion several times but never provided any evidence other than your own word despite there being evidence to the contrary.

and that all the major Christian festivals actually are rooted in a far older tradition.

but in spite of this most people continue with a "chirstianised" version of the 'orginal' tradition rather than reverting to a secular/aetheist format.

Most people don't get married in church etc yet you still think its a Christian country.

43% of First Marriages in England & wales (2008 ONS data) were religious (i,e, not civil ceremonies)... ...thats pretty significant... even more so in Scotland where the number is 48% religious across ALL weddings (not just first marriages - so probably > half of first marriages - but the data isn't presented in the same format).

what little influence the Christian churches have are an fading anachronism

actually I think they still have way too much influence and I'm really surprised at YOU saying the UK is not "a Christian Country" as it seem to suggest YOU are quite happy with the current level of involvement of the Church in influencing politics etc. and from all the people on here, if there was one person who would be arguing against it it would be you. Your repeated assertion that we are not a christian country seems to suggest the current level of church involvement in the state is so insignificant that it doesn't matter. I'd much rather we were a properly secular society rather than this backdoor officially-christian-but-nobody-cares-unless-the-dailymail-stirs-it-up pseudo-secularism we seem to have.

I know you don't have any kids TJ but if you did and sent them to your nearest non-denominational scottish primary school. Would you expect them to:

- get involved in a nativity play
- go to Church at Christmas and Easter and sing Christian Hymns
- pray to god at those services
- learn more about the Bible and Bilical stories than any other recognised religion
- be taught about Christmas as "a Christian Festival celebrating the birth of Christ"

That is only some examples. You will have the option that your child doesn't participate in this, but nobody will highlight it to you unless you've made a fuss at some point to point out you might be "different". Would you then be the one parent in the class who excludes his child from (what to a 5 yr old look like) the fun stuff the other kids do?

Oh and by the way, just in case you don't know, anything the teacher tells your 4/5/6 yr old child is considered by the child as absolute fact, and if you dispute it you are wrong...

All the data presented on this thread Even by those who believe this country to be Christian one shows its a minority who are. A minority of weddings as you admit and weddings are the most common time fore people to go to church. Congregations are tiny , ageing and falling.

Non denominatial schools in Scotland had when I went almost no religious content. Voluntary attendance at church services 3 times a year ( but most went) No nativity play ever, no daily prayer - infact no prayers at all, no compulsory religious education and very few did the classes on offer. It was an almost completely secular education. Thus there would be no need to exclude my child.

Why you think the fact I understand that the christians are a minority a means I thick the level of christian influence in the affairs of state is acceptable I don't know - one does not follow the other

Would you then be the one parent in the class who excludes his child from (what to a 5 yr old look like) the fun stuff the other kids do?

Of course he would.

All the data presented on this thread Even by those who believe this country to be Christian one shows its a minority who are.

All? Are you sure? Even the census?

Though if you're still here arguing, let's go back to my question which was too awkward for you to answer (at least Northwind had a go). Why is the premise I base it on wrong? Just to remind you, here it is again (I've edited the countries the other way round, as that seemed to confuse you last time):

So you're living in a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people don't believe in God. You move to a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God. What fundamental differences do you notice?

Or how about this supplementary which also appeared to be too awkward:

So what characteristics would you expect to see in a Christian country (and how would that differ from what you encounter in this country)?

aracer - Member

All? Are you sure? Even the census?

The census figures take no effort to discredit, but you're right, it shouldn't just be ignored.

The major "Christian festivals" actually have almost nothing to do with Christianity being pre Christian festivals with a thin veneer of Christianity laid on them and the symbols mainly being prechristian

It's irrelevant that the major high days and holidays of the UK are reworked or inspired or heavily influenced by pre-Christian events and rituals. They are only important now because they are Christian holidays, not because they were once also pre-Christian events. Indigenous Pre-Christian holidays are an irrelevance and a mere footnote in the UK: no-one GAF about the solstices, beltane and samhain.

TJ, you really are a prat aren't you. The question is, is the UK a christian country. So how can we read that, you could say are the people living in the UK christian, or is the UK a country founded and developed on christian beliefs.

Although you try and discredit the census figures, when asked the question someone says they are a christian, they are saying that is how they see themselves.

Most people are not Christians in the sense that they go to church, but they don't see themselves as Wicca, as Muslim, as Hindu, etc, But they don't see themselves areligious either and that is crucial. So when asked what religion you are they make the easy choice.

The UK is a developing society as all are, the laws we have are the result of a christian moral code, do you see infanticide as acceptable? do you see animal sacrifice as acceptable? because these were things that were acceptable. But if your definition of a christian is someone that follows every word of the bible then there are no christians alive today, it is not possible as the bible is contradictory.

A few questions, do we swear on the bible? do we blame god for things, do we use the name of jesus as a cry for help, do people still pray at times of adversity, are there still nativity plays, do we celebrate christianized versions of festivals?

Why don't we celebrate Divalli, Samhain, the summer solstice, the vernal equinox?

The very simple fact you are too stupid to see is that the UK is the way the UK is because of christianity. If the Angles had remained pagan then the country we are in would not be the way it is, the influence of Christianity is waining but it is there and most people can see it.

Why are 25% of primaries CoE? why in the last century were most schools attached to churches.

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever

That sounds a bit like something a mass murderer says before pulling the pin; proper sinister!

No offence, like. (especially if you are a serial killer...)

Handel's Messiah! Good grief, it's a cultural desert in this place.

and just in case you are too stupid to understand the meaning of the founding of the UK, i mean the country commonly referred to as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, i am not reffering to the Roman province of Brittania, the tribal region of the Dobunni, the Danelaw, the kingdom of Wessex, etc.

Why is our Monarch a German? or is that your problem? the Stuarts got kicked out and you feel betrayed. And yes i now you are a plastic scot, but in the same way the most anti smokers are ex smokers, i guess the most scottish are the fake scots.

And yes i now you are a plastic scot, but in the same way the most anti smokers are ex smokers, i guess the most scottish are the fake scots.

This is, I think, an uncalled for and irrelevant personal attack. Why don't you go and have a nice cup of tea?

A cup of tea is what we all need now.

mrmo - Member

Why are 25% of primates CoE?

[img] [/img]

Perhaps the other 75% are a little more intelligent than we think?
[img] [/img]

do we use the name of jesus as a cry for help

No, more of an exclamation of frustration!

TJ - All the data presented on this thread Even by those who believe this country to be Christian one shows its a minority who are.

Ehhh... apart from the census. The only data I recall was a "survey" on behalf of the Humanists (who have an agenda) which asked the same question as the Census and got similar data; then asked a suplimentary question which doesn't dismiss the original one but challenges your understanding of what it means to be "Christian".

A minority of weddings

so we were a Christian country 15 years ago?

as you admit and weddings are the most common time fore people to go to church.

I suspect funerals might be more common. Purely from my anecdotal evidence whilst humanist/non-religious ceremonies are on the increase they are still the minority. I would speculate that will change as older generations (of "believers") die out.

Congregations are tiny , ageing and falling.

Even the church (well some of them) will tell you attendance at church is not essential to being a Christian. I can't find any viewing figures for Songs of Praise but I suspect they would make interesting reading (if other factors like scheduling effects can be separated). I read somewhere a long time ago that more people watch SoP than go to Church. The bible doesn't mention the possibility of televisual worship so I guess that doesn't count as Christian participation! The fact it is produced by the state broadcaster at a relatively prime time slot might be seen as further evidence of a Christian country!

Non denominatial schools in Scotland had when I went almost no religious content.

There was definitely more when I was there (which I think was about the same time as you). Enquiries with teachers in Glasgow suggest that it is still similar, although it varies with Head teacher.

Voluntary attendance at church services 3 times a year ( but most went)

so it was expected you would go to church (and still is) how can that be the case in a "non-Christian" Country? Why are we expecting 5 yr olds to worship a god that most of the country doesn't believe in?

No nativity play ever,

there was none at my school that I recall, but it does seem to be the norm - every school in this town does one.

no daily prayer - infact no prayers at all,

no compulsory religious education and very few did the classes on offer.

RE as a "subject" is incredibly unpopular, but RE as part of the school's Social / Moral / Citizenship education, has as far as I recall, always been pretty much mandatory. At primary school where the subject boundaries are not clear - I remember learning bible stories (but no others). My son had covered Adam and Eve, Samson, the Good Samaratan, Noah etc; as well as some New Testament stuff. The sum total of the other religions has been a little bit on "Diwali".
[quote It was an almost completely secular education.

really, even with your recollection of Scottish schooling, it is clearly not Secular.

Thus there would be no need to exclude my child.

So you are comfortable for your hypothetical children to be raised having these "Christian" beliefs applied to them? I can just about rationalise it on the basis "well its a Christian country, so understanding the traditions and values of that is part of growing up here" but if I lived in TJland then I'd be outraged that schools were still doing the churches brainwashing for them in country that wasn't even Christian.

Aracer - Of course he would.

Oh its maybe just as well he doesn't have any kids then. They will get bullied enough because there dad still rides a tag-a-long without being immediately identified as "different".

Northwind - The census figures take no effort to discredit

Really? is that what we should do with any part of the census where we don't like the answer or the findings don't support our answer?

Just thought of another question for Northwind and TJ (not that I'm expecting a sensible answer from the latter):

Did the UK used to be a Christian country? When did it stop (nearest day will do)? What particular event resulted in the change? How can you tell the difference?

A cup of tea is what we all need now.

Nice [url= http://www.trinity-methodist-church-felixstowe.co.uk/coffee-morning-monday.html ]coffee morning here[/url] in 20 minutes. All welcome.

Araqcer - it has gradually moved away from being a christian country.

Now that a tiny minority of the population are christians it no longer is.

As an Australian born and raised I must say how surprised how unBritish I found both London and Cardiff. Sitting in the nonEU passport queue I would have not been surprised if I landed in the middle east!

What exactly did you find surprising about the fact that the "Non EU Passport" queue had lots of people in it that weren't British ?

Were you expecting that queue to be full of Beefeaters in Full uniform waving Union Flags and eating Sunday Roasts ?

it has gradually moved away from being a christian country.

Question nicely avoided. I expected nothing less. Though there are some supplementaries you could have a go at - or I'll even let you give the date of change to the nearest 10 years.

konabunny

It's irrelevant that the major high days and holidays of the UK are reworked or inspired or heavily influenced by pre-Christian events and rituals. They are only important now because they are Christian holidays, not because they were once also pre-Christian events. Indigenous Pre-Christian holidays are an irrelevance and a mere footnote in the UK: no-one GAF about the solstices, beltane and samhain.

No = its extremely important that they are - this is why they remain popular. Do you think Christs birthday would be of any note unless it was laid on top of the great midwinter feast?

You really need to think about the symbology and realise how little and thin the christian content is.

easter bunny and chick - pre christian symbols. Its precisely because the Christian festivals were laid on top of the pre christian that they survives and are popular

Its precisely because the [s]Christian[/s] pagan festivals were [s]laid on top of the pre[/s] converted into christian that they survives and are popular

FTFY

Seeing as historians disagree on the origins of Christmas, I find it amusing that STWers have such conviction.

Aracer - but all the fun stuff is the prechristian. You know feasting, making merry, giving pressies.

but all the fun stuff is the prechristian. You know feasting, making merry, giving pressies.

You should thank the Christians that they had the foresight to keep all that 🙄

Guess it depends how you define 'a Christian country'.

Thankfully, there's no definitive answer to this and people in this country are pretty much free to claim - based on their personal experience, as shown throughout this thread - that it is or it isn't and feel their daily lives reflect the fact. To me, this is A Good Thing.

My household is not religious in the slightest, yet I am at pains to ensure my children understand that plenty of people are, and that this is something to be respected. My 6yo attends a supposedly non-denominational state primary school, but in the West of Scotland, state schools are generally either Catholic or Protestant - 'non denominational' is Church of Scotland by default. How much religious content is included in the syllabus or the day-to-day life of the school seems to vary considerably, influenced by both the local authority and the head teacher.

I was extremely surprised when midway through P1, I discovered that before school lunch and packed lunch, the children are led in a short prayer. Initially I was uncomfortable with the fact, especially as the school has never informed parents that this was a daily practice so I raised the issue conversationally with my son's teacher who looked vaguely embarrassed before shrugging and saying that's just what they do here.

The school is an excellent school, with a first-class head teacher and (so far) we have never been anything other than delighted with how it is run, so I considered this and thought more about the subject and discussed it with my son. He seemed a little bemused by it, as he has already constructed his own Dawkins-lite viewpoint on religion (Mrs Tyred and I had hitherto skirted awkwardly around the subject with him), but certainly not uncomfortable with it, and it has led to some excellent discussions on religion with him, so although it appears to be the practicing of religion, I think it is serving a purpose beyond that and making the children familiar with the idea of religions, what they are and what they mean, something that needs responsible treatment within schools in the west of Scotland.

Although I don't think I've ever prayed myself (outwith injury-time penalties at Celtic Park) I've been surprised with how comfortable I've felt with this happening at my son's school and I think it has perhaps softened my view on the place religion has in society. So when I read Cameron's comments, I didn't immediately bristle the way I normally do when he says anything!

There's room in this country for the religious and the non-religious to do their stuff without griping at the other side, and I'm happy about that. Britain may or may not be 'a Christian country' but it certainly isn't a theocracy.

pre christian symbols. Its precisely because the Christian festivals were laid on top of the pre christian that they survives and are popular

I don't see any major celebration at summer solstice, which on your theory would still carry great importance.

I don't see any major celebration at summer solstice, which on your theory would still carry great importance.

Midsummer is celebrated but doesn't have much retail interest.

Midsummer is celebrated

By who?

Good post 2tyred. 'it depends on the definition' absolutely. Did you catch that, chief protagonists? Or are you going to ignore a voice of common sense and keep on arguing about who's OPINION is righterer?

By who?

i get a mid-summer card from my dad, and my sister...

By who?

Myself and the people I love.
I'm really not sure about anyone else, but there is a wikipedia article on it. Take a look [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer ]here[/url] to find out more.

Very good post (and username) 2tyred

I seem to remember the census question pertaining to religious belief quite leading?

2tyred - I went to a Glasgow primary school too, and I remember even as a young age being made to feel different because I didn't pray with the other children. I was pretty bloody-minded even as a child so the rebellion was sometimes fun, but it was also often uncomfortable. I still remember being told not to ask the minister awkward questions as it upset him.

So, while I hope my daughter will be independent- minded enough to question what she's told about religion in school, I wish she didn't have to...

aracer - Member
"Midsummer is celebrated"

By who?

Midsummer is one of the Biggest holidays of the year in Sweden.

I've been a few times and it's brilliant !!!!

[img] [/img]

😯

Midsummer is one of the Biggest holidays of the year in Sweden.

So is Sweden a Christian country?

So is Sweden a Christian country?

Probably not, if you ask some people on here...

So is Sweden a Christian country?

I've no idea mate, I was just answering the "who celebrates midsummer" question. Because I have been and it's a massive celebration.

I wasn't attempting to prove a point. Just answering the question 😉

i've been to a church in sweden - for a friend's wedding*.

so thanks to my thorough, and extensive research, we can say for sure that Sweden is a christian country.

probably...

(* a very nice, and entertaining ceremony, the vicar's first words were 'i have a dog' - in english...)

If we're not a Christian country, why is anybody interested in this?

I'm not religious in any way, unless something drastic happens I doubt ever will be,

But I fully support religion. (unless its pushed on other people)

Britain is certainly a Christian nation.

Sorry, but I really ought to have mentioned sooner:

Aracer - but all the fun stuff is the prechristian. You know feasting, making merry, giving pressies.

What about the other prechristian bits - you know, the sacrificing virgins and the massive fireside orgies? We seem to have lost them across the way 🙁

On another point - don't forget, there's a massive difference between having faith (believing in some form of God like deity), being "religious" (believing that the word of god is contained within the scriptures)and being a practicing worshipper.

just because only a small minority are worshippers, it doesn't mean that there are not a huge majority who would identify themselves as having some sort of "faith"

The question is impossible to answer unless the parameters for defining the UK as 'a Christian country' are better defined.

Edit; correction: without further clarification, this amusing but pointless argument over semantics will circulate fooooreveeeer.....

So do I put you down as yes, no or maybe when compling the list, v8?

Edit; correction: without further clarification, this amusing but pointless argument over semantics will circulate fooooreveeeer.....

Shhh! That's the point, right?

a few pages back, someone said this

I dont need to be told that murder is a sin by institutions that have spent the last 50 years systematically covering up the worlds biggest paedophile rings

+1 from me.

The Catholic church is not fit to operate as a relgion and should be abolished.

Which has what exactly to do with the title of this thread?

So if we were a Christian county instead of a country with some christians in it we surely would base our law on church law and scripture.

so lets see - and end to people accumulating vast amounts of wealth

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

NO more interst on loans

If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest

Criminal law would be come more entertaining

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."

Homosexuality? well tht sort of nonsense would have to stop

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

The Catholic church is not fit to operate as a relgion and should be abolished.

Oooh! That's a good one. What are your criteria for fitness to operate as a religion?

So do I put you down as yes, no or maybe when compling the list, v8?

Put me down in the 'it's a bit more complicated than that, silly 😉 ' column if you like...

Seriously, it depends how you define it, doesn't it? Arguments both yes and and no are supported by sound facts and reasonable assumptions.

Ah, so with your criteria TJ, the UK never was a Christian country? Is that your answer to that awkward question? Or did it stop being one when homosexuality was legalised?

The Vatican State appears to be quite rich - presumably not a Christian country then?

Vatican states certainly is not very christian 🙂 Whats that stuff about graven images and false idols?

Vatican states certainly is not very christian

Thread closed.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

What about the other prechristian bits - you know, the sacrificing virgins and the massive fireside orgies? We seem to have lost them across the way

I suspect we've mostly made them up along the way tbh. Not really much mileage in sacrificing virgins.

Oooh! That's a good one. What are your criteria for fitness to operate as a religion?

erm, let me think...

1. No lengthy history of large scale covering up and turning a blind eye to clergy all over the world abusing children.
2. err.

These people are in it for money and power only. How can they possibly preach moral values and dish out the old thou shalt be guilty for waking up in the morning routine when in many cases they themselves have been abusing or protecting those who abuse children?

Thread closed.

🙄

Aracer - where is all the humble and poverty stuff? To say nothing of graven images and false idols.

papist mummeries anyone?

papist mummeries anyone?

Hmmm, mummeries. Big bouncy mummeries...
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=2152 [/img]

poly - Member

Really? is that what we should do with any part of the census where we don't like the answer or the findings don't support our answer?

It's what we should do with any survey whose findings are out of keeping with other surveys, and include a leading question which, when asked with sanity-checking questions, delivers incompatible results.

Unless of course you don't see a problem with all these christians who don't believe in god, or christ, and aren't religious?

There's no shortage of other contrasting results- here's a nice consistent one from the British Social Attitudes Survey.

[img] [/img]

Worth mentioning they ask "Do you regard yourself as belonging to any particular religion?" rather than "What is your religion".

How many of the 400,000 jedi are actually practicing jedi knights?