[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

Pagan scumbag.

that's why it's celebrated in Britain rather than a Hindu, Muslim, or whatever other religious festival you care to choose.

OK it's "odd".....so what ?

It's still not a Hindu or Muslim religious festival.

Christmas is celebrated in Britain because of Britain's Christian tradition/heritage.

If you get pissed on the wrong day is irrelevant.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff

Speak for yourself.

Odd that[b] we[/b] were celebrating it before the [alleged] birth of christ.

The use of the "we" there reminds me of the Mitchell and Web football sketch.

You've got a good memory. That's fact is it? All of the pre Christian Britains (whoever they might have been, can you trace your ancestors back that far?) were involved in the winter solstice?

rightplacerighttime - Member
An orgy of food, booze and stuff
Speak for yourself.

i think youll find hes speaking for most of the people in this country
93% of whom will not be going to church this xmas
if only 7% can be arsed to go worship on jebus' birthday then this isnt a christian country

I refer you to the census figures given earlier.

Pagan scumbag.

On Solstice Black Peter will be here with Old Nick to take away the bad children and leave a present and some coal or a Yule log for the good kids..

ernie_lynch - "The two vital ingredients which all known societies have always had, throughout history and prehistory, and throughout the world, no matter how varied they might be, is religion and music.

Both of which on the face of it would appear unnecessary and pointless. But since I know of no exception to that rule then I reckon it must be accepted that those two requirements are a prerequisite for a successful society."

All societies have also had crime and disease but it doesn't mean we need them though. The need for religion is a flaw in the human character. It's time we got over it.

I'm not sure why you think disease is a characteristic of human society, although it's fair to say that crime in varying degrees is.

However crime is also a widespread characteristic of non-human society - nature is more than happy to allow and encourage theft, murder, violence, coveting your neighbour's house, bigamy, and so on. Both within species and between species. There is no evidence that it necessarily hinders the success of a species and can never be positive.

Religion in contrast is totally unique to human society. And there is no evidence that it represents, in itself, "a flaw" in the human character. In fact there is plenty to suggest otherwise as human society's impressive evolutionary success and religion have always gone hand in hand.

Presumably the rules and protocols it lays down has a significant positive effect on organisational issues and helps combat negative ones such as crime and disease.

Otherwise there would not have been the overwhelming prevalence of religion in all societies throughout history, and atheistic societies would have gained the evolutionary upper hand.

Religion and spiritual/mystical feelings are bury deep in our DNA and the human brain has evolved to exploit them for beneficial evolutionary purposes. Don't place humans on some sort of pedestal, we are at the mercy of evolutionary processes just like any other species. We are really not that special.

Now if you want to reject all existing religions and feel they should be replaced by something "better", then that's a whole different issue. But it's quite wrong to describe religion as having been a "flaw in the human character", and wrong to believe that you can simply remove it and leave a void in its place - you'll never do that.

rightplacerighttime - Member

Regardless of one's personal religion it is hard to argue that the UK isn't a Christian country.

Well, no it isn't, it's a simple matter of statistics- the overwhelming majority of people aren't practicing christians. Even if you believe the assorted church's figures, which are of course Incredible Bull***t, that's still the case (Church of Scotland records me as a Christian, because I was christened, frinstance- that's how strong their argument is, they need to enlist random atheists)

What we do have, is an overall moral code heavily influenced by Christianity and by the same underlying morals that influenced Christianity (and most other world religions). I'm not religious but I live what could be considered a fairly christian life. This is not the same as being a christian country but it does explain why Cameron can get away with talking such astonishing s**t.

We are a Christian-compatible country. Not sure we can be quite described as secular, since we don't have correct seperation of church and state but hopefully we'll lose that last dark ages stuff soon.

Not sure we can be quite described as secular, since we don't have correct seperation of church and state

Hence we are Christian 🙄

I'm also fairly sure that the CofS / CofE didn't fill in the religion bit on atheists census forms.

aracer - Member

Hence we are Christian

Er... Would you like to try to explain your strange non-sequitor or are you just going to stick with "X, therefore Y"?

The census as I'm sure you know gives results which can't be reconciled with other surveys, at least partly because of its incredible leading question, "What is your religion" rather than "do you have a religion"

Did you see the BHA counter-survey that came out shortly after? The sample group was asked the same question, and over 60% of people said they were Christian. Then they were asked "Are you religious" and only 30% said they were. Less than half of the Christians believed Christ was the son of god, which is... challenging.

A similiar one (which I can't find, rats) asked the "What is your religion" question and got a high-70s result, then asked "Do you believe in a god" and got 25% yes.

Clearly when you get answers like this, you're asking the wrong question.

- we seem to accept a copy of the bible being given to every child by the Gideons but there would be outcry if someone started doing the same with e.g. the Quoran,

hear hear northwind. this is a humanist country, and we are about to have a communal ceremony to pick each other up during the darkest day of the dark months. which is why i will be celebrating with food, drink and best of all, friends
ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

That's kind of judgemental...

@Northwind

Did you see the BHA counter-survey that came out shortly after? The sample group was asked the same question, and over 60% of people said they were Christian. Then they were asked "Are you religious" and only 30% said they were.

And did you see the question at the top of the thread?

Was it : "Is the UK a [b]Religeous[/b] Country?"

You're the one asking (answering) the wrong question.

ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

Do you know any?

I know loads (though I'm not one myself) and they all seem quite nice.

"christmas" is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

TJ, when you say missapropriated

do you mean it is wrong?

Do you think that everyone who has ever celebrated Christmas without covering themselves with woad, tucking into a delicious meal of a bit of burnt wild animal and some nettles, washed down with some psychotropic mushroom juice and then spent the night outside in the freezing cold near some big stones is just not getting into the right spirit and failing to fulfil their authentic proper British (although obviously way before anyone even considered the concept of Britain, England or the UK) role?

 

The census as I'm sure you know gives results which can't be reconciled with other surveys, at least partly because of its incredible leading question, "What is your religion" rather than "do you have a religion"

Yes it did say that.

Right underneath that it said [b]"This Question is Voluntary"[/b]

And right underneath that, the first available answer was [b]"No Religion"[/b]

So you can't be suggesting that people felt trapped into putting down Christian or whatever through lack of other options ?

.
If the question was "what type of car do you drive"

And the options were.

No car
Ford
Renault
Etc.
Etc.

Anyone without a car would be well enough catered for wouldn't they ?

The use of the descriptive "void" or "god shaped hole" applied to a removal of any particular superstition doesn't match my own experience.

Fortunately for me, the attempt to indoctrinate me into the xtian cult wasn't made until I was 11, so I was able to work out for myself that it was just a lot of fairy stories, essentially, and reject it completely.

It didn't feel like an absence of anything, more like a wound that was the result of being attacked, being healed to make me whole again.

"christmas" is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

Love it ! 😀

In their quest to satisfy their bitter intolerance and prejudices against Christianity, is it amusing to see how some will clutch at straws.

Yes, some local traditions have been absorbed into Christianity, but whilst we might enjoy a "yule log", and it's part of our Christmas for example, it is not part of the universal Christmas tradition - Christmas itself is not a pagan festival.

And for further examples if you were to attend a mass in Ugandan/Ghanaian you would find significant differences to a mass in English, with chanting and dancing typical of pre-Christian religious celebrations in Uganda/Ghana. It's still a Christian mass though. Likewise rosary beads are definitely catholic, despite the idea having originally been borrowed from Muslim prayer beads.

And it's not only religion which borrows from past traditions. The monarchy and the House of Lords were "misappropriated" from the old feudal system, they are now an integral part of bourgeois parliamentary democracy. You can't claim that the Opening of Parliament by the Queen is a feudal celebration ........unless you are particularly daft.

BTW, if the pagans had a "midwinter festival" it wouldn't have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

BTW, if the pagans had a "midwinter festival" it wouldn't have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

I thought the winter solstice was 'midwinter'

ernie_lynch - Member

"christmas" is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

Love it !

In their quest to satisfy their bitter intolerance and prejudices against Christianity, is it amusing to see how some will clutch at straws.

Maybe it's not a prejudice?
Maybe it's a rational decision to dislike religion based on first hand experience?

However, I agree that the 'Pagan Christmas' argument is pointless:
As an atheist I just enjoy Christmas for my own hypocritally selfish reasons.
I love the fact it makes people happy.
Really, what's not to like?

BTW, if the pagans had a "midwinter festival" it wouldn't have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

[b]I thought the winter solstice was 'midwinter'[/b]

It is.

This year it's 22nd December.

Lifer - Member
I thought the winter solstice was 'midwinter'

On the issue of the census question, Northwind has it when he says that it depends how you ask the question. I did some work with the census team in Scotland during the trials. One of our tasks was to go to folks houses after they'd sent in the form and walk through the questions in more of an interview-style to see if the answers remained consistent and whether or not folk were having difficulties with the wording etc. What you then get is a chance to hear folks reasoning. When it came to the religion question, most would answer C of S, but before they did that, they'd do this wee mental juggling act..." well, I haven't been to church in years.... I was christened....my family are christian..." that sort of thing. The number of active church-goers was tiny.

Was this a loaded question

So "midwinter" means the first day of winter ? Damn the english language - I'll never get the hang of it 😐

When's midweek - monday ?

Confusing eh?

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Bleak_Midwinter [/url]

ernie_lynch - Member
So "midwinter" means the first day of winter ? Damn the english language - I'll never get the hang of it
When's midweek - monday ?

It depends if you are thinking of winter Astromonically or in "real" terms.

Winter in the UK is traditionally 1st Nov to the 1st Feb. With the winter solstice being "Mid Winter"
Based on the period, and spread, of shortest days.

When it came to the religion question, most would answer C of S, but before they did that, they'd do this wee mental juggling act..." well, I haven't been to church in years.... I was christened....my family are christian..." that sort of thing. The number of active church-goers was tiny.

So does the question ask "do you go to church" or "are you religious"?

Er... Would you like to try to explain your strange non-sequitor or are you just going to stick with "X, therefore Y"?

Non-sequitor? You explained yourself that the church and the state aren't separated...

Of course, to make it really fair, they should ask everyone the question "what is your religion?" just a few minutes before they died - that would give them a whole lifetime to make up their minds and would iron out the distracting "I want to die before I get old" macho posturing period.

All of this "it's the way you ask the question" stuff isn't really very useful in thinking about this.

If you want to look for a bit more evidence outside of the census - why do people get married in church? why do people have their children Christened? why do people have church funerals?

All of the personal as well as state/societal big occasions are still by and large conducted in Christian ceremonies. And guess what, they're not compulsory - that's what people choose to do - even after they've had time to think about it.

rightplacerighttime - Member
If you want to look for a bit more evidence outside of the census - why do people get married in church? why do people have their children Christened? why do people have church funerals?

^^ hard for me to argue with that. i got married in a church and wouldn't have even considered a civil ceremony.

as a historian it's pretty difficult to divorce the landscape from christianity. churches and church houses are pretty much the dominant feature of all english villages and in most cases will be the only medieval (or earlier) buildings left.

i guess it depends on how you read the landscape but the england i live in is a very christian place.

the whole thing over Christmas amuses me. almost all the symbols are the pre christian ones. the timing is for the pre christian mid winter festival. teh only thing that is Christian about it for most is the name

Tradition.

Or to put it more fully and more correctly:

Christian tradition.

almost all the symbols are the pre christian ones.

Apart from a few trivial ones like Jesus, Mary and Joseph of course.

teh only thing that is Christian about it for most is the name

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, that's the [b]only[/b] thing.

rightplacerighttime. How many nativity scenes do yo see in peoples houses and public spaces compared to decorated trees, holly and ivy, wreaths on doors, yule log, robins etc

Edit

father christmas as well of course - non christian

It is tradition, and people do it because it's expected of them, and because churches are nice places to do things like ceremonies. I'm on the atheist side of agnostic, and the number of times I had the 'why aren't you getting married in a church/getting you boy christened?' conversation with family is amazing. When I say it's because we don't believe in god and it would be hypocritical, most peoples reactions are that they didn't think it mattered, it's just what you do...

It's taken a conscious effort [i]not[/i] to end up down the assumption of Christianity route for us, and I don't suppose many people are as bothered, especially when churches look so darn pretty in the pictures and all.

EDIT; I agree with TJ... 😯

the whole thing over Christmas amuses me.

You amusement amuses me.

Or to put it more fully and more correctly:

Christian tradition.

Heathen tradition. 🙂

rightplacerighttime - Member

You're the one asking (answering) the wrong question.

nealglover - Member

Right underneath that it said "This Question is Voluntary"

You are both missing the point- the census got a 70% result "I am christian" but if you ask the exact same question then follow it with "are you religious" you get 30%. Since you can't be christian and not religious, the numbers are demonstrably broken.

aracer - Member

Non-sequitor? You explained yourself that the church and the state aren't separated...

Ah, so you're still going to stick with "X therefore Y"? The lack of seperation of church and government obviously doesn't make us christian- it's just a strange constitutional throwback that we haven't got round to removing yet (mainly because in practical terms it's irrelevant)

The lack of seperation of church and government obviously doesn't make us christian

It certainly makes our country Christian.

If the country isn't secular, and isn't Christian, what is it?