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trailmonkey - Memberis it a small minority that celebrate easter and christmas in a variety of interpretations ?
No. But I celebrate christmas, and I'm not a christian. My colleague Firas celebrates christmas, and he's a muslim. Albeit a crap one. My friend Leif will be celebrating yule, as he's a smartarse. Mu old boss Fiona will be celebrating a bleak christmas that most of us wouldn't recognise, because she's some sort of fundamentalist christian and hates all this santa claus and commercialism and happiness stuff.
You can't actually believe there's a correlation between celebrating christmas and being christian though.
Northwind it is very simple, or at least for most people it is, traditions develop, there was a time when this was a Celtic country, it consisted of small tribes fighting, worshiping local gods, although this does rather suppose that the celts are a people and not an idea. That in itself is debatable.
Then there was a time when belief was roman, and there was a belief in the roman pantheon which in itself was a adoption of earlier ideas, look at how many grave stones are carved IOM, Jupiter Optimus Maxiumus, or with reference to the Genii. The laws the actions were based on a set of beliefs. That was subsumed into a belief in one christian god and became the official religion under Constatine, in 409 when Honerius withdrew Roman control from Britannia another set of traditions were formed, moving forward through the "dark ages", the stories of the anglo saxon chronicles, of Beowulf, of bede.
Move further forward through the viking raids, of the danelaw, Norman invasion, the crusades, through the tudor period where Britain was divorced from the mainstream, where people were executed for there religon, the puritanism following the civil war, the banning of christmas, The pendle witch trials, each step forming the country we now live in. move further forward and where do we see the royal wedding? in a CHURCH or a registry office.
Have a read of the oath of allegiance that MPs swear, The minor detail that the queen is the defender of the faith,
Consider also that Darwin, Newton, Keppler these were church men there actions were done to prove the power of god, not to prove religion was wrong but to prove it was right.
Read the national anthem, read Jerusalem, etc. look at the world around you, do you see spires or minarets? we may be becoming a less religious society but as is clear from the Census returns the majority of the people in this country regard themselves as christian, the majority of our offices of state are based on religious laws.
Do you know why yew trees are to be found in Churchyards? it is about adoption of development.
And just to be clear i am an atheist i do not believe in a god but i accept that the country in which i was born and in which i live has a history and that history is for the last 1000 years christian, the laws are christian,
There is no such thing as a tradition of humanity, there are cultures, the idea of having a picnic in a church yard to me is odd but forms a key part of the celebrations on the day of the dead, in the UK we have halloween at the same time of year, both merge christian and pre christian ideas. Easter, some say it is pagan but as the earliest references to Eostre i believe are actually in Bede, it could well be a made up story to give support to the newer tradition.
anyway i am bored The UK is currently a christian country you may deny if you wish but your wrong.
As said above - Christmas is actually very little to do with Christianity.
Its the pagan midwinter festival with a thin veneer of Christianity. almost all the symbols used are pre Christian,
Holly and ivy, Father Christmas, yule log, Decorated Trees, Flying raindeer
Northwind,
I didn't say it made YOU a christian.
The problem is not the "Are you a christian?" question - which people can answer based on their own beliefs. The question in the census is actually "What is your religion, and gives all sorts of options". Whilst possibly leading in that is suggests you should have some sort of religion one of the options is none.
The problem is the "Are you religious?" question and the interpretation you are putting on it. You are assuming that a NO to that question means they cannot be a Christian. I'd guess most people would interpret that question to mean something similar to: "Do you go to Church / prey etc?". Even friends of mine who christened their children and who go to the odd christmas service at church would probably answer that NO, because they don't consider themselves to be "god botherers". Indeed even the minister who married us (a compromise we made because at the time to get married outside a church required a minister - or to be in a dull registry office ceremony) was quite comfortable with my hethenism and said he wasn't even that religious! The question is too open to interpretation to be useful in comparing it to the "what is your religion" questions.
No. But I celebrate christmas, and I'm not a christian
good, then you should be primed to accept the point that i'm trying to make. christianity is such a part of our culture that we accept it without being christians. saying that it's not a christian country because not many people go to church just seems ludicrous when for many of us, the landscape is dominated by it, many of our cultural norms revolve around it and it's an intrinsic part of our unwritten constitution.
Mrmo, it's surprising how close we are to agreeing- we're just drawing different conclusions from the same facts. You certainly seem to agree that the key messages of christianity transcend christianity- they pre-date it, will outlive it, they exist everywhere that humans exist even where christianity is barely heard of, and they exist even where other religions hold sway.
Course, my morals are also fairly compatible with islam, judaiism, and buddhism, and no doubt many others that I'm ignorant about. The reason being, they're all fairly similiar takes on the same core issues of being a human. .
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are Abrahamic religions, as for buddhism which version are you talking about, different versions exist depending on the cultural needs of the adherents.
Religions may have similarities but they also have differences.
Because, though you deny it, you are the result of a christian environment. Morals are not some fixed marker they are the result of the way society develops. Infanticide is culturally quite normal but do you regard it as right? What about leaving bodies to rot on hill sides, again quite normal? How about cannibalism, culturally a normal thing, just not in the UK.
Our moral code is nothing to do with Chrstianity. again Christianity took a preexisting code and claimed i for their own.
trailmonkey - Membergood, then you should be primed to accept the point that i'm trying to make. christianity is such a part of our culture that we accept it without being christians.
I understand your point; and again we're not so far from disagreeing. However you would maintain that the continuing success of christmas proves the continuing influence of christianity; whereas I would say that modern christmas is largely divorced from christianity. Muslims celebrating christmas aren't accepting christianity! They're just able to seperate the two.
mrmo - MemberInfanticide is culturally quite normal but do you regard it as right? What about leaving bodies to rot on hill sides, again quite normal? How about cannibalism, culturally a normal thing, just not in the UK
But also, not found in many non-christian countries. Therefore it cannot simply be christianity that forms these cultural norms.
You mention sky burials- but that's just a matter of ritual, not a basic tendancy. Ultimately cremation, burial, sky burial, burial at sea are all different takes on the same thing- the desire to celebrate and commemorate the passing of another human being. And, ultimately, dust to dust.
Northwind i know we are fairly close, the detail is that we are in what i can best describe as a lapsing christian society, lapsing but still a christian society.
As Voltaire says, if god did not exist mankind would have to invent him. Religion allows control, it gives power to some and removes it from others. In many ways i guess you could argue that this is a capitalistic society, the power has been given to business and banks rather than religious organisations. Yet we still give oaths on the bible and not the Economist.
When we no longer marry in churches, when we no longer swear on the bible, when we no longer sing songs to a christian god then we will not be a christian society, until that day we are.
A minority of weddings in church,very few people sing songs to a christian god. so by your logic.........
Our moral code is nothing to do with Chrstianity. again Christianity took a preexisting code and claimed i for their own.
Your point? that is how people work, reuse, recycle, people don't go to bed a pagan and wake up the next day and say i am christian lets get rid of everything from yesterday.
Christmas is actually a good marker of where we are going, it is a pre christian festival that was adopted, and has developed, at its core we regard it as christian, when the core is no longer about Christ then you can argue about it not being Christian.
The core is never about Christ. Look at the festival - its a midwinter feast. The symbols are not Christian.
whereas I would say that modern christmas is largely divorced from christianity
i think that my rather confusing analysis, is that this proves the intrinsic influence of christianity not disproves it.
but yeah, i don't think we're too far apart.
mrmo - MemberWhen we no longer marry in churches, when we no longer swear on the bible, when we no longer sing songs to a christian god then we will not be a christian society, until that day we are.
To which I say- When we get married in christian churches without belief; when we swear on the bible and it means nothing to us; when we sing songs to a christian god just because they're good songs- we have stopped being a christian society.
mrmo - Memberwhen the core is no longer about Christ then you can argue about it not being Christian.
I think TJ would agree with me when I say I believe it already has.
yes I'm in the same camp. I've probably never been in the "Christian" camp (I remember being asked on a medical form at about 12 what my religion was, and I said "I don't know" and the nurse saying "Well are you catholic?" NO, "Well you must be protestant then!"). I guess many people are "in" the Christian camp because they have been "raised" that way and have never bothered to make a conscious decision to leave. They are part of the reason this IS a Christian country though - because by default our society raises people on the assumption that they are Christian and if you don't like that then opt out. Don't think that is the case? Nativity plays, Gideon Bibles, Christmas and Easter services in Schools, Church involvement in University Graduation ceremonies etc, all reinforce that the default assumption is you are Christian. There is also an assumption which I don't like but I think anyone claiming this is not a christian country is probably ignoring: if you were from another religion people would probably manage that situation delicately and invite you to "opt out" of some of these things. If you have no religion then its generally assumed that oh well Christianity is so innocuous it will be fine!v8 - Your second group there Poly, strikes me that's the vast majority, and where I would put myself. Would you count them as Christian or non Christian? I would count myself as non Christian, but only because I have thought about it. I suspect that many in that group would tick the c of e box, just because they haven't thought about it and because of the afformentioned gentle indoctrination we are mostly all exposed to.
i refer the honorable gentleman to the answer i gave some moments ago.
it's the christian things we do without being christians ourselves that are testimony to it's intrinsic influence
oops double post
TJ, read the words of the national anthem.
so the detail that 35% of weddings are still religious is a minor detail. and clear evidence that the religion is of no concern.
mrmo - MemberTJ, read the words of the national anthem.
"Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain"
❓
so the detail that 35% of weddings are still religious
In my experience of weddings, that's more to do with a church looking nicer in photos than a registry office in town.
To which I say- When we get married in christian churches without belief; when we swear on the bible and it means nothing to us; when we sing songs to a christian god just because they're good songs- we have stopped being a christian society.
So you're singing the songs, following the traditions, using the symbols, following the moral code. How do you tell the difference?
Is it called CHRISTMAS or saturnalia, or......
Have you ever sung a christmas carol?
have you ever sent a christmas card?
have you ever attended a nativity play?
Yes the country is moving away from christianity, but it has not left it behind. People still get married in churches, because it is what you do, it is actually a part of the fabric of the society, something that is done without thought.
"Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain"
Not quite yet, look at football or rugby, look at the olympic medal ceremony, we may not be religious but the way we behave and think still shows religion hasn't been abandoned yet.
dd i agree and part of the reason that i got married in church but at the end of the day it still signifies the part played by the church in or everyday lives. for me the fact that we accept it without acknowledging the significance, does nothing to diminish its effect within society and if anything, reinforces it.
Many Christmas carols are prechristian, I have no idea what a chrstmas card has to do with christinanity as they usual have pagan symbols on them.
YOu can call a cat a dog and keep it in a kennel - its still a cat. The Christmas we celebrate remains the pagan midwinter feast with a thin veneer of chistianity pasted over it. Its got far more pagan links that Christian
aracer - MemberSo you're singing the songs, following the traditions, using the symbols, following the moral code. How do you tell the difference?
I think God comes into it somewhere?
Also, again; I'm not following the moral code of christianity. Christianity and I just have a similiar set of morals. And marriage is not a christian tradition; rather christianity has a tradition of marriage.
mrmo - MemberNot quite yet, look at football or rugby
Sorry, I was having a bit of fun there- that was from Flower of Scotland, we don't sing God Save the Queen at the rugby. But if we did I imagine we'd take the God and Queen stuff as seriously as we'd take the crushing of rebellious scots 😉
Northwind - Member
mrmo - Member
When we no longer marry in churches, when we no longer swear on the bible, when we no longer sing songs to a christian god then we will not be a christian society, until that day we are.To which I say- When we get married in christian churches without belief; when we swear on the bible and it means nothing to us; when we sing songs to a christian god just because they're good songs- we have stopped being a christian society.
mrmo - Member
when the core is no longer about Christ then you can argue about it not being Christian.I think TJ would agree with me when I say I believe it already has.
Northwind - I think those are great points, but I come to a different conclusion. We are a Christian society, but its about time some of those anachronism were removed so we could stop being a Christian society and out customs and practices could more on from outdated and irrelevant nonsense. And although it will never happen - the Churches are probably the people to lead that revolution!
A small minority of the population are Christians,
The major "Christian festivals" actually have almost nothing to do with Christianity
TJ - You are of course right in your assertion that most of the symbols of Christmas are not traditionally Christian, but most of the population aren't as well educated as you. If they believe it is a Chirstian festival and still celebrate it - does that mean it is not a christian festival?
You suggested Father Christmas isn't traditionally Christian, I'm not clear if there is a generally agreed origin, but I've always understood there to be an association with Saint Nicolaus, who gives his "Status" as a "Saint" I presumed to be a Christian figure.
I'm intrigued, I guess there is probably a tree in TandemTowers at present; which is obviously not a traditional Christian emblem - but what is at the top of it? When public buildings, schools, etc put a tree up do you write and complain if they put a star or angel at the top? As you are clearly in the "non-religious camp" do you bin any religious christmas cards you get (ones with angels on the front etc?).
ok TJ please give me a pre christian Christmas carol?
As for Pagan midwinter festival, which pagan are we talking about? Wiccanism, Buddahism, Shinto, Zoroastranism, etc.
Do you call it CHRIST-mas or how about midwinter festival?
"Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain"
😕
No :
[i] Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the Queen[/i]
I think God comes into it somewhere?Also, again; I'm not following the moral code of christianity. Christianity and I just have a similiar set of morals. And marriage is not a christian tradition; rather christianity has a tradition of marriage.
Yes, but to all intents and purposes that still makes us a Christian country, even if people no longer believe.
I pointed it out earlier, but it's worth repeating - the level of atheism on the STW forum is in no way representative of that in the country as a whole.
mrmo - Memberok TJ please give me a pre christian Christmas carol?
The holly and the ivy
Yes, but to all intents and purposes that still makes us a Christian country, even if people no longer believe.
eh? fantastic logic.
As you are clearly in the "non-religious camp" do you bin any religious christmas cards you get
Has anybody got an address for TJ so I can send him the most religious card I can find?
I pointed it out earlier, but it's worth repeating - the level of atheism on the STW forum is in no way representative of that in the country as a whole.
Even by the most generous estimates a minority of the countries population believe in the christian god and a tiny minority are practicing christians
The holly and the ivy
Google says no.
aracer - MemberYes, but to all intents and purposes that still makes us a Christian country, even if people no longer believe.
What do you call religion without faith? Nothing.
eh? fantastic logic.
Right TJ (and Northwind) so you're living in a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God. You move to a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people don't believe in God. What fundamental differences do you notice?
You suggested Father Christmas isn't traditionally Christian, I'm not clear if there is a generally agreed origin, but I've always understood there to be an association with Saint Nicolaus, who gives his "Status" as a "Saint" I presumed to be a Christian figure.
He is the "green man" - a pagan symbol
I'm intrigued, I guess there is probably a tree in TandemTowers at present
Nope - no decorations at all
TJ, and what are the words to the current version? i am assuming you don't sing it in old english after all.
What do you call religion without faith?
We weren't discussing whether the country is religious - that's the fundamental point you and TJ are missing.
Aracer - I do not accept your basic premise
Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God.
Thre "christian traditions" are far more to do with pagan rituals, the moral code preexists Christianity and it little to do with christianity anyway, its only a minority who believe in god
ernie_lynch - Member"The holly and the ivy"
Google says no.
Holly and Ivy are clear pagan symbols, the song is clearly a celebration of the pagan symbols. Your google fu is faulty. the first result I got was
The version we of the Holly and the Ivy that we are familiar with today was first published by Cecil Sharp. The Holly and the Ivy is thought to have Pagan origins and could therefore date back over 1000 years. It is most unusual for a carol like the Holly and the Ivy to have survived over the years especially during the stern protestant period of the 17th century. The Holly and the Ivy have always been taken indoors during the winter the hope being that the occupants would survive difficult conditions just like the hardy Holly and the Ivy. The colours of the Holly and Ivy, green and red are traditionally associated with Christmas. The author and composer of the Holly and the Ivy are unknown.
I do not accept your basic premise
The question is too awkward?
Thre "christian traditions" are far more to do with pagan rituals, the moral code preexists Christianity and it little to do with christianity anyway
So what characteristics would you expect to see in a Christian country (and how would that differ from what [b]you[/b] encounter in this country)?
You can't actually believe there's a correlation between celebrating christmas and being christian though.
I think you probably can.
It might not be 100%, but I suspect that you actually would find a fairly good correlation between celebrating Christmas and being a Christian.