[Closed] Is it racist...

If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to be offensive. That's not very nice, is it.

I answer this one by thinking if you feel comfortable saying it to a stranger- any stranger- then no, unlikely to be racist.

An example to illustrate the point: someone new joins your work, they look oriental, you go over and introduce yourself by saying "hello chinky". If reading this has made you uncomfortable, then you have your answer.

If I didn't know better I'd think you were trying to be offensive. That's not very nice, is it.

I do try, i'm just not very good at it

Program is IT or information technology to you as I'm guessing you also don't like acronyms?
Not sure why you'd guess that, but you're wrong.

Because it's a form of making something shorter which you don't like according to your original post. My utter failure in an attempt at humour 😳

In the spirit of the actual thread I agree with those that say the word is racist, but can be said by people without that intent. Mainly older people who have been saying it for years.

"I answer this one by thinking if you feel comfortable saying it to a stranger- any stranger- then no, unlikely to be racist."

Doesn't really help me with Sassenach. I thought it was derogatory, now I'm told it's not.

Saying it isn't gonna help me much.

Doesn't help me with Chinky, either, the only time I remember hearing it applied to food was a bloke saying he was so tight for cash he hadn't had Chinky for months. I didn't know that was racist and saying it wouldn't have helped me guess.

Sassenach isn't derogatory. I'm not sure of it's etymology but here it refers to people from south of the Wall, and in the highlands it refers to people south of the highland line (Lowlanders). I think the highland term is the original one and is used by lowland Scots because we all like to think of ourselves as kilt-wearing, claymore-wielding, heather-striding, sassenach-slaying Bravehearts.

Exactly. The worst a Scotsman can do is say it with a sneer. The odd thing being that the English who live closest to Scotland are of Norse origin, not Saxon!
Maybe being called a Saxon was derogatory to a Norseman, who knows? 🙂

paddy's day....

Or is that ok because it is only the Irish...

And just because Irish use the term i assume it is also ok to use **** because it appears plenty of song lyrics.

You know every racist slang word in use in the uk?

I bet you don't.

(St.)

paddy's day

Paddy, is ok if it relates to a person called Paddy.
Reducing a a group of people to a single name, which often is not their own, is not ok.

Calling a Greek person, Stavros, is ok, if his name is Stavros, but if his name is Patrick, then call him Patrick.

calling a person by a 'typical' name of their country, is ok when it is their name, not when it is not.

I really can't believe we have to explain this

Language changes.

I think it is racist, and even if you don't, it seems an unnecessary version of the word which isn't any shorter and seems potentially rude.

A lot of what people demonise as "political correctness" is just simple politeness and respect for others.

And, [b]TPbiker[/b] just as one chinese mate can't automatically represent the views of everyone of his background, neither can he tell you the word wouldn't offend others, and give you leave to use it.

And lack of intent/knowledge/context does not make it any better, any more than saying to the police you didn't mean to/realise you were speeding.

I do find it weird that several posters have mentioned their northerness as part of the explanation/excuse of why they might use it - or the other, corner-shop related, phrase being debated.

Thing is, we already established that this word, and others similar are offensive, yet they are still allowed on the forum, ban them as we do other offensive words or allow the other ones. I don't understand why one form of offensive language is allowed, yet other forms are not

An example to illustrate the point: someone new joins your work, they look oriental, you go over and introduce yourself by saying "hello chinky" If reading this has made you uncomfortable, then you have your answer.

Not sure that's a fantastic illustration to be honest, because I'd be equally uncomfortable saying "hello person of Chinese descent".

Your example only adds weight to the idea that it is the intent and context that matters most.

mumsnet already did it, 19 pages

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1170401-Racism?pg=1&order=

[quote=outofbreath ]Doesn't really help me with Sassenach. I thought it was derogatory, now I'm told it's not.In the Outlander books/TV series, the Scots hero calls his English Wife "Sassenach" repeatedly. He uses it as a term of endearment. We come back to the fact that intent is more important than the word used.

This again?

Ok I changed my stance from the previous 17 page thread. I still don't think it's offence as such but I stopped using it as Scotroutes have said, times change.

Sassench? Never head of it.

mumsnet already did it, 19 pages

Pretty sure I've had this conversation on here a couple of times before as well 😀

Ok I changed my stance from the previous 17 page thread

This could possibly be the first time anyone has changed their mind based on an STW argulympians episode.

Congrats 😉

Chinky? Its the takeaway - simplez.
Always has been, always will be whether I'm back in the midlands, down here or anywhere else for that matter!
Everyone I know uses it, did growing up and still do.
Kids use it, mate from Hong Kong uses it when he's hungry, the chinese who live behind me own a restaurant and thats the term they used when they introduced themselves and said what they do for a living FFS!
Same as the **** shop - christ one of my best friends in leicester is a Sikh and if you're at his race shop and you want grub he sends the "lad up the **** shop" - which is on the corner and owned by the same guy still who immigrated her in the 60's from guess where....

Its one thing calling someone a "chink" - singular, directed and an insult.
Chinky is a takeaway/restaurant - oxford dictionary states as much.
Same goes for the way "****" is used.
The words aren't - its how the person using them that defines the meaning.

Asking someone at my work if they want anything from the chinky or chinkies at lunchtime has and will result in being dismissed for gross misconduct. Rightly so. Maybe the word wasn't originally offensive but after years of it being routinely followed in use by something like bastards or following an adjective like dirty etc wears thin and therefore the two uses cannot be separated. Same as ****. Same as jock and paddy can be considered offensive by some (although not nearly to the same degree).

Sassenach is an interesting one and one were IMO context is all. I have certainly heard it used as a derogatory insult based on ethnic origion ie "Eff of back to England you sassenach"

Maybe it all just depends on the restaurant? 😆

[img] [/img]
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And for completeness...

[img] [/img]

Asking someone at my work if they want anything from the chinky or chinkies at lunchtime has and will result in being dismissed

Takeaways open at lunch time? Where is this fabled land in which you dwell?

Anyway, all terribly offensive. We should probably stick to talking about bikes. Anyone used these guys?

[img] [/img]

😉

Takeaways open at lunch time? Where is this fabled land in which you dwell?

West central Scotland of course!

You have takewaways closed on a lunch time?

Anyway the etymology of Welsh means Foreigner/outsider. whilst Cymru means us/fellows.

Pretty racist ideas if you think about it?

[quote=mrmo ]Anyway the etymology of Welsh means Foreigner/outsider. whilst Cymru means us/fellows.
Pretty racist ideas if you think about it?

Cymru/Comrade?

Cymru/Comrade?

Possible i don't know the etymology behind comrade but i do know that cymru is an old welsh word that was used to identify themselves.

I haven't read beyond the first page but my view is that what constitutes racist language is all down to intent.

When someone says "I fancy a chinky tonight" they are almost certainly not doing it to insult Chinese people but are simply announcing that they fancy partaking in the culinary delights of oriental cuisine, it is not racist imo.

If however they are referring to a person as a "chinky" then there is a high probability that they intend to insult, in which case it is racist imo.

Likewise with **** shop. For me **** shop means the local convenience shop which is owned by the delightful and extremely polite Mr and Mrs Patel (who are almost certainly not ****stani), which has a wider range of products than a Waitrose supermarket, and which remains open until ridiculously late.

If however someone is referred to as a **** the intention is almost certainly to insult them and it is indisputably racist.

It ain't rocket science imo, it's all down to intent seen through perspective of common-sense, concepts which both bigoted/racist right-wingers and middle-class politically correct lefties spectacularly fail to understand.

Exactly. The worst a Scotsman can do is say it with a sneer. The odd thing being that the English who live closest to Scotland are of Norse origin, not Saxon!

I have certainly heard it used as a derogatory insult based on ethnic origion ie "Eff of back to England you sassenach"

And we're back to intent again. I could call you an effing coatrack with sufficient conviction that it'd be pretty clear that I meant it as an insult.

I don't understand why one form of offensive language is allowed, yet other forms are not

Yes you do, you're just looking to have an argument about it.

Aside from anything else, just look at the eloquent turns of phrase the relatively gentle flowers over on Mumsnet come out with. If swearing wasn't verboten this place would look like the AGM of Tourette's Anonymous.

mumsnet already did it, 19 pages

Give us time, it's early days yet.

When someone says "I fancy a chinky tonight" they are almost certainly not doing it to insult Chinese people but are simply announcing that they fancy partaking in the culinary delights of oriental cuisine, it is not racist imo.

Whilst I agree it's not Racist, I also don't think it's generally acceptable these days, so I don't use it personally.
I wouldn't presume someone to be racist if they did though, it would take more than just that.

I also don't think it's generally acceptable these days

I depends who you socialise with.

It's generally acceptable with people who don't over-analyse the English language and aren't over-occupied with appearing to be political correct and not racist.

It's not acceptable to people who are preoccupied with appearing to be politically correct and not racist.

I'm always suspicious btw of people who are preoccupied with not appearing racist. I know that I'm not racist so I feel no compulsion to prove that I'm not.

Having said that I do adjust my language depending on the company. Especially my liberal use of the c-word 🙂

The swear filter must be a nightmare for you then, Ernie. (-:

I also don't think it's generally acceptable these days

I depends who you socialise with.

Which is exactly why I used the word "generally"

You know, so I was speaking "generally" about the majority who don't use the term.
rather than "specifically" about a minority, who do.

Not at all Cougar, I am aware that when I'm on here I'm in polite company 🙂

Having said that all my early bans were for swearing.......it took a while before I realised what sort of company I was in.

Drac - Moderator
This again?

Ok I changed my stance from the previous 17 page thread. I still don't think it's offence as such but I stopped using it as Scotroutes have said, times change.

Sassench? Never head of it.

Yeah, me too. But I have heard of but never used sassenach.

And, don't we do this very thread once every quarter ? Just seems to reinvigorate an argument and handwringing.

Maybe it should be a sticky.

Porridge Eater.

It is a racist term.

People have the opportunity to wipe it out all together, just call it the chinese instead, then over generations it will die out.

Or just continue to use it and make this racist term last and last.

I have a customer in Doncaster. his company name is Polskisat.

Polski means Polish in the language, but it's an adjective so refers to objects. Polak would refer to a person - but its gendered and I'm not going that detailed 🙂 And correct me if I'm wrong but PolskiSat is a service provider in Poland?

Personally (and call me oversensitive) I got called a Pom, in Poland, by someone I'd never met before in public, before I'd even spoken to them. Made me think they were a bit rude really.

You have takewaways closed on a lunch time?

Yep, seems to be a 17:00 unwritten rule before the traditional takeaways (Chinese, Curry House, Pizza, Kebab etc) begin selling their wares. Sandwiches shops are open though. We have a local one called brown or white, so racist!

I tell you what I think is weird about racism in the UK. I can honestly say that I never hear people being racist about the usual suspects, apart from the occasional confused pensioner referring to black people as 'boons' or something. But fair enough, I'm an average liberal white guy so probably don't see much outside my bubble.

But talk about Irish Travellers and my god... It's all there; PROPER racism. Some of the stuff you read on forums/Comment sections regarding this lot wouldn't sound out of place in Nazi Germany or slave-era USA. But it kind of goes unnoticed. What's that all about?

And another thing. Years ago I worked in a busy restaurant kitchen with every nationality under the sun. Everyone was incredibly racist, shouting insults back and forth, but then all sit and drink together at the end of a shift. Whether we're all inherently racist or it was just a convenient method of offending one's colleague I don't know .

I'll probably get lynched for this, but have you had many dealings with the traveller community? They don't exactly have great public relations. You think we are bad with the travellers, try being born ginger and male in the UK wink:

Interesting. Would never consider using Chinky or **** due to the negative racist connotations in England.

I do however use Jap when referring to my Japanese made Honda motorbike. They are Jap bikes, which is in my mind at least, positive in terms of engineering and quality.

My American wife reacted much as I would if someone casually used the term ****. Apparently Jap has the same negative racist connotations for the Yanks.

So I get where you're coming from, but I think if Nigel Farage considers it ok to "go for a chinky", then it's probably a bit racist and you shouldn't use it.

You've met my neighbour fourbanger haven't you.... she is rather hot

My American wife reacted much as I would if someone casually used the term ****. Apparently Jap has the same negative racist connotations for the Yanks.

You don't say.

Polak would refer to a person

See, I always thought that was pejorative. For years, the only place I'd ever come across it was on American TV / movies. "Did you hear the one about the Polak who..." in pretty much the same context as "Irishman" in hilarious jokes from the 70s over here (there's a character in Flashdance that does bad standup all around these). It was years before I even discovered what a Polak was.

Is it not, then?

I know, I'll ask an actual Polish person (on the grounds that a sample size of "one" is totally representative of an entire nation). Hold the line please, caller.

If 8) you knowingly use a word in a non-racist context that others use to cause offence them you are (even in a little way, even not intending to) helping to perpetuate the use of something racist.

Point being, you can choose to easily use another word that is not going to risk annoying someone and it's not hard to do

Ok analogy time "why are you carrying a gun?" "I'm going hunting" "but you're walking down the high street with a gun n your hand, that's what lunatics do" "but I'm not a lunatic" "then prove that you aren't by having it in a case until you are standing in a field"
same with language, prove that you aren't racist (which we know you aren't) by not even going anywhere near using a word that racists use, don't put yourself in a position where the is even the hint of doubt 8)

J'know what - I thought the 17 pages thing was a bit of a gamble but I'm thinking they're gonna get the win.

Macka B will tell you what you need to know.

8)

I know, I'll ask an actual Polish person (on the grounds that a sample size of "one" is totally representative of an entire nation). Hold the line please, caller.

My Polish friend says it's absolutely fine as far as she's concerned, it simply means "a Polish person" with no negative connotations. Every day's a school day.

teasel - Member

J'know what - I thought the 17 pages thing was a bit of a gamble but I'm thinking they're gonna get the win.

I've got about 2-3 pages of debate as to whether or not Macka B does tell you what you need to know, if it helps.

Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone know a really offensive term that could be applied to Hungarians.

I don't normally indulge in such fripperies but I was at a loss for suitable words when 50 Hungarian renderers decided to blockade our office this morning.

Calling them Budapests just wasn't cutting the mustard.

Or just continue to use it and make this racist term last and last.

A counter-argument could be that by continuing to use an inherently non-racist term with affection, rather than hate, we might reclaim it.

After all it seems a bit one-sided if any colloquial adjective can be placed forever out-of-bounds simply by some bigots using it.

I didn't even know they had reindeer in Hungary

I haven't read beyond the first page but my view is that what constitutes racist language is all down to intent.

When someone says "I fancy a chinky tonight" they are almost certainly not doing it to insult Chinese people but are simply announcing that they fancy partaking in the culinary delights of oriental cuisine, it is not racist imo.

If however they are referring to a person as a "chinky" then there is a high probability that they intend to insult, in which case it is racist imo.

Likewise with **** shop. For me **** shop means the local convenience shop which is owned by the delightful and extremely polite Mr and Mrs Patel (who are almost certainly not ****stani), which has a wider range of products than a Waitrose supermarket, and which remains open until ridiculously late.

If however someone is referred to as a **** the intention is almost certainly to insult them and it is indisputably racist.

It ain't rocket science imo, it's all down to intent seen through perspective of common-sense, concepts which both bigoted/racist right-wingers and middle-class politically correct lefties spectacularly fail to understand.

Why is it that people who quote "common sense" almost always fail the logic test.

Do you refer to German owned shops as "Das Hun Shop", do you refer to Irish shops as "Paddy Shops", or Ginger owned shops as "Ginger Shops", do ****stanis/Black people refer to white owned shops as "Cracker Shops"?

No they don't do they! The reason why white people shorten and use ethnic identifiers in these types of shorthand, is that it purposely identifies those who are non-white as outsiders. Whether you do it intentionally or not, someone at some point did and it caught on - and perhaps - just perhaps, some ethnic minorities feel uncomfortable about being labelled as outsiders by the society they live in?

It isn't rocket science is it, bro?

Ginger owned shops as "Ginger Shops"?

We call ours Pink Floyd; no soul. 😀

It isn't rocket science is it, bro?

Sexist.

jambourgie - Member

But talk about Irish Travellers and my god... It's all there; PROPER racism. Some of the stuff you read on forums/Comment sections regarding this lot wouldn't sound out of place in Nazi Germany or slave-era USA. But it kind of goes unnoticed. What's that all about?

Displacement of hate, it's a pretty common thing. People who're naturally disposed to hate others, or who need to, for whatever messed up reason aren't always all that fussed about [i]who[/i] they hate, so they effortlessly shift from one target to the next as they become socially unacceptable. Not allowed to hate blacks? Fine, hate polish people. Oh not polish people? Fine, hate travellers. Jews off the menu? Fine, hate muslims. Can't hate all women? Hate "feminazis". The arseholes that want to stop trans people going to the bathroom, are the exact same arseholes that would have blamed ****stanis for taking their jobs.

At some point it'll become unacceptable to hate travellers, and they'll all just move onto the next thing, whatever that might be. ****ing economists hopefully, I hate those bastards. Or middle class politically correct lefties.

It ain't rocket science imo, it's all down to intent seen through perspective of common-sense, concepts which both bigoted/racist right-wingers and middle-class politically correct lefties spectacularly fail to understand.

PARKLIFE

The reason why white people shorten and use ethnic identifiers in these types of shorthand,

Just white people?

just perhaps, some ethnic minorities feel uncomfortable about being labelled as outsiders by the society they live in?

So how does that thought apply to cuisine Tom?

If you run a restaurant selling "ethnic" cuisine (or at least westernised approximations of it) then presumably you actively [i]want[/i] customers to know what you sell?

But if calling a restaurant "Chinese" labels the proprietors as "outsiders" then should we call them "chip shops" instead? 😆

And that's the thing: for me, and I suspect some others, this sentiment quickly slips from a perfectly well-intentioned and agreeable [i]"casual racism is bad"[/i] to an utterly infuriating [i]"adjectives are bad"[/i].

But if calling a restaurant "Chinese" labels the proprietors as "outsiders" then should we call them "chip shops" instead

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20120418231016[/img]

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Sexist.

Again, Macka B taught me how to treat women:

(and vegetables)

[Quote=mod]Yes you do, you're just looking to have an argument about it.

No, I really don't. I cannot see why the word **** is seen as more acceptable than the word ****. I would be less offended if some called me that than if they called me names based on my race.

I would be more upset at my kids for saying **** than I would for saying ****. If it is about protecting the family forum, then let's get rid of the family unfriendly words.

Unless you can explain, why the word **** is more acceptable than the word ****, then maybe you should ban or allow them both

But if calling a restaurant "Chinese" labels the proprietors as "outsiders" then should we call them "chip shops" instead?

And that's the thing: for me, and I suspect some others, this sentiment quickly slips from a perfectly well-intentioned and agreeable "casual racism is bad" to an utterly infuriating "adjectives are bad".

The point being we don't shorten French restaurants to "I'm going for a frog", it displays a wilful lack of courtesy to use the full name and pretty much erects a big **** off glowing neon sign over your head that says "I'm a lazy **** that can't be arsed to form a proper sentence". Identifying corner shops by the owners heritage is worse.

Just white people?

If non-whites do, does that make it acceptable? Not really.

But generally, in the west - they seem less likely to as perhaps they are more sensitive to these issues.

If non-whites do, does that make it acceptable? Not really.

That wasn't my point. My point is it's not just those pesky whites that use racist terms.

The point being we don't shorten French restaurants to "I'm going for a frog",

No that's a [i]different[/i] point. You said earlier that the point was that people felt [i]"uncomfortable about being labelled as outsiders"[/i] which any adjective has the power to do.

it displays a wilful lack of courtesy to use the full name.

Maybe this is a cultural thing, but I generally regard nicknames as a sign of affection, not disrespect. My wife looks concerned if I call her by her proper name, same goes for close mates.

So again there is context and intent there.

That wasn't my point. My point is it's not just those pesky whites that use racist terms.

Oh I'm sorry, I never knew that they used these terms in Britain to describe shops. What terms do they use?

Oh and they aren't racist terms, they're "prejudiced" terms if non-whites use them in western society.

😈

[img] [/img]

No that's a different point. You said earlier that the point was that people felt "uncomfortable about being labelled as outsiders" which any adjective has the power to do.

People only tend to do so, if they feel that heritage is used in a way that implies disrespect. Indians for example, often want to celebrate their heritage - but likely in a way that doesn't alienate them from the rest of society.

Got bored reading after page 2, but the most offensive thing on this thread is the same old names pretesting their entitlement to be old fashioned racists. Get with the 90's man

Oh I'm sorry, I never knew that they used these terms in Britain to describe shops. What terms do they use?

The same as some other Brits use as the skin colour isn't what makes you racist.

But generally, in the west - they seem less likely to as perhaps they are more sensitive to these issues.

Or maybe because it doesn't make sense to identify someone or something as part of a majority.
I'm sure if I went to Kingston and opened a fried chicken shop I would be identified by my lighter than typical skin, rather than my long as typical hair.
It's simply logical, and I'm sure wouldn't bear any malice, especially as we all know how much they love chicken!

The same as some other Brits use as the skin colour isn't what makes you racist.

Do you really want to argue this?

I mean, I can, if you really don't know where I'm going to take this to piss off as many of you as I can?

Or maybe because it doesn't make sense to identify someone or something as part of a majority.
I'm sure if I went to Kingston and opened a fried chicken shop I would be identified by my lighter than typical skin, rather than my long as typical hair.

I'm sure we'd have heard of it if they did, plenty of polish shops in these kinds of areas.

It's simply logical, and I'm sure wouldn't bear any malice, especially as we all know how much they love chicken!

...and melons and spears, eh?

This is so ****ing easy.

I know, I'll ask an actual Polish person (on the grounds that a sample size of "one" is totally representative of an entire nation). Hold the line please, caller.

Yep, my ex wife was in the room so we have a sample size of two. I can't spell Polaciem correctly which I think is the female version.

**** shop is the one for me that rings wrong. But an astute person before said that it might have more to do with my own prejudices. I [i]think[/i] that whoever owns a shop is irrelevant. But maybe I see it as a negative because growing up that would have been my only contact with people from ****stan, and I've intrinsically linked it with limited opportunities? **** knows.

I'm sure we'd have heard of it if they did, plenty of polish shops in these kinds of areas.

Polski Sklep is actually accurate though.

That's actually going the opposite way though isn't it Rich, I mean you're using their language to describe where you are going - instead of a British derived term of *cough*...."endearment"....*cough*.

Tom_W1987 - Member

This is so **** easy.

Is it? I'm not so sure.
Let's see what the oracle says...

It does sound like there's quite a demand.