[Closed] is ESP as car option worth it?

It's not for ragging it about. You'd turn it off then.

It's for when you are driving along and hit a random patch of ice or diesel spill etc.

Personally, I'm into safety features.

Only ever seen mine come on when I overcook it on a bend and it attempts to hand brake the back in a bit for me!

I thought it was mandatory on all new vehicles since November 2011, although it is still listed as an option for the Berlingo I see.

EDIT - I wonder if that means all new vehicles brought out since then.

It really helps in the ice and snow.

definitely worth it. i did an high speed driving course with Rob Gravitt a few years back and they banged on about its vitues for ages. basically they said its worth having over many many other options and put on some practical demonstrations to prove it.
for road driving where the unpredictable happens regularly, its a god send. for track driving where the surface is consistent and everyone is goign the same way its not worth it and actually makes the car worse, but then when are you going to take a berlingo on a track?? and why would you turn it off ont he road?

by the way, they are great vehicles!!

TBH if it includes extra airbags it's got to be worth it for the passenger safety anyway hasn't it, even if you never use the ESP itself.

I'd get it.
Imagine if you crashed in a way that it would have likely helped, you would always be thinking what if (well I would anyway).

It's great until the car gets to about 7 years old. If the abs pump fails or
An ESP computer fails it can effectively write off the car.

My mrs had her esp light come on after an accident in a five yr old VW Touran. The insurance were told but the garage screwed up, they did the bodywork but tried to weasel their way out of fixing the ESP (I think they forgot to bill the insurance for it). Cost them £1500 to fix.

I wouldn't bother for that reason. The less features the better. I've only lost control once in 20 years (after deliberately spinning a car in the ice on an airfield) so I reckon I can live without it in the future.

Good point!

I wouldn't pay extra for it, no way! In winter it actually hinders progress in my Passat because as soon as it detects a hint of wheelspin it brakes that wheel and you end up gradually slowing down and stalling. I have driven up the same snowy hill with it on and failed then unset it and got up the hill with momentum and good gear choice and a delicate throttle.

ABS might help you to steer under extreme braking but as far as I can see ESP is for muppet drivers who don't know how to control their cars.

You only need to lose control once, it could be the end of you. I've never lost control of a car, and I do n't intend to. Imagine if your wife died in a crash caused by a fuel spill.. you'd be wondering if £400 and the risk of a bill would have saved her life...

Globalti esp is not for snow like that, which is why you can turn it off. That exact scenario. Doesn't mean it's not worth it in other situations.

I've had mine flashing away on snow, ice and even some unexpected water on an otherwise dry road.

Don't suppose I'd have necessarily been killed to death without it, but the same goes for most safety features (ABS, airbags, side impact bars etc).

ABS might help you to steer under extreme braking but as far as I can see ESP is for muppet drivers who don't know how to control their cars.

One could say ABS is for muppet drivers who don't leave enough space in front of them / drive too fast for the conditions.

They are both there to handle the unexpected.

In my opinion, it depends on whether it's tied in with traction control and how that traction control is implemented. I had a Focus with ESP (which could be disabled). The first time ESP kicked in (or the first time I noticed it kicking in) it braked one rear wheel to bring the back around on an icy decent...impressive. Unfortunately I usually had to have it off as the traction control (which was enabled when ESP was on) was chronic, cutting engine power long after a tiny wheelslip occurred, just when you needed power to pull out of a junction...a nightmare.

cutting engine power long after a tiny wheelslip occurred, just when you needed power to pull out of a junction...a nightmare.

Can't say I've ever noticed that on my Focus - but then I don't generally wheelspin out of junctions 😀

Slightly OT, I'm a bit disturbed that people have commented they have never lost control of a car. I'd be concerned if they said they'd never lost control of their curent car, let alone any car. How do they know where the limits are then? You know, those limits that are easily reached in emergency unforeseeable situations?

it's damned impressive on the mk4 focus, i had a huge lift off oversteer moment when some twazzock came shooting out of a roundabout junction in front of me at about 40mph (big roundabout joining a DC), before I could get the opposite lock on, it braked some of the wheels and snapped it back into line. Really really good bit of kit.

Can't say I've ever noticed that on my Focus - but then I don't generally wheelspin out of junctions

You obviously never tried pulling out of Denham Media Park onto the NSL road with blind crest.

I'd be concerned if they said they'd never lost control of their curent car, let alone any car. How do they know where the limits are then?

I've spun mine about on an icy car park, but I don't consider that "losing control" because I chose to do it and it wasn't on a public road.

I have it on my pick-up, which is great as they are very tail happy.

On another note it has emergency brake assist, which is awesome. Under normal braking the brakes work as normal, but stamp on them and its like hitting a brick wall. 2 tonnes of metal and it stops on a sixpence - so much so that vehicles behind have been caught out the couple of times its kicked in.

I've cornered as quickly as I dare in all the cars I've had, and never felt close to the limit (apart from that Fiesta). To lose control in either of my cars on tarmac I would have to be going far far quicker than I would ever drive for reasons of visibility and predictability.

I do test the braking limit of the car in different conditions, and I do test grip when driving in snow etc, to see where I stand. Not everyone does though, nor should everyone, I expect.

Everyone should have a skid education day though, at regular intervals too.

Oh and the TC on my Passat allows quite a bit of wheelspin.

Tucker,

I've explored the (mainly mine) limits but only once lost it, I could argue that I chose to spin and it did.

There's a difference between drifting and feeling the limit and overstepping it and losing it. most skilled racing drivers drive on the limit. To 'lose it' would be unaffordable.

I'm doing it everyday (on aircraft) and am comfortable in those (on limit) situations in terms of reaction and physiology. However my day to day driving keeps me way away from the limits, however I always do a traction check if the conditions are sketchy.

The comment about traction control is valid. I had a nightmare the other day whereby the ASR kicked in on my T5 and really slowed my progress out of the junction. I might have had a small amount of wheel slip but it's inputs totally reduced my ability to pull away.

The ESP on our old 407 certainly got us out of a spot of potentially serious bother once on a slightly snowy road after a moment of indecision on my behalf. Driver error was duly corrected by the car and on we went. Mrs. has never let me forget that moment.

ESP is like having your mum in the car.

turn mine off on my A3 if I want to make any kind of progress on twisty roads.

Jambo, I've made progress without it kicking in - I shudder to think how fast you must be going to make that happen.

Either your tyres are awful and worn, or you're being extremely dangerous.

His ESP sounds like it's knackered. I can drive in a spirited manner on twisty roads without my ESP even flickering.

Or perhaps MY ESP is knackered 😉

ESP is like having your mum in the car.

turn mine off on my A3 if I want to make any kind of progress on twisty roads.

Yeah a bit, when its dry I tend to turn mine off too. Worth keeping on in the wet though where traction is less predictable. ESP is worth having. I think accident statistics for cars with ESP bear this out

molgrips - Member

Jambo, I've made progress without it kicking in - I shudder to think how fast you must be going to make that happen.

Either your tyres are awful and worn, or you're being extremely dangerous.

That's totally dependent on the car and how the ESP is set up.

when its dry I tend to turn mine off too. Worth keeping on in the wet though

Fortunately "when its dry" there are never unexpected piles of wet leaves, burst drains, diesel spills, gravel, or banana skins on the road.

Used to think it was useless in my car until I hit a patch of ice once. The car straightened up right away - amazing

It kicked in a couple of times when the unexpected happened in my Focus. The ESP definitely helped although it does feel a bit strange having the car do something you haven't told it to do.

I think if you are a very careful driver it's not necessary but if you're driving on unfamiliar roads in unfamiliar conditions it has its uses.

Fortunately "when its dry" there are never unexpected piles of wet leaves, burst drains, diesel spills, gravel, or banana skins on the road.

Match speed with sight my friend and very little becomes unexpected

Got it on my berlingo. I paid for the airbags and saw the ESP as a bonus. You also get the hill start assist stuff which is actually quite handy when you've got a load in the back (thought it would be crap, but it's not).

ESP gubbins seemed to help a lot on a few very snowy drives last year. I'd go for it again.

I would not have a car without it. Have had some professional experience in the industry over the years and the chassis test engineers didn't turn it off in their own cars - ever (OK - they did on a track, but not on the road). And that's people who do eight wheel drifts with a double axle caravan hanging off the back of a car so not too shabby behind the wheel.

Im amazed that its an optional extra. I assumed it was standard on all new cars now a days.

ESP isn't just a safety feature but can also cut down on wear and tear on the vehicle when it cuts power stopping excessive tyre spin and transmission abuse.

ESP isn't just a safety feature but can also cut down on wear and tear on the vehicle when it cuts power stopping excessive tyre spin and transmission abuse.

I think people are confusing traction control with ESP. Not the same thing at all. A lot of the references here to "the light coming on" sound like TC rather than ESP...

Just saying.

A lot of the references here to "the light coming on" sound like TC rather than ESP...

Dunno. Not a driving expert like, but the light does say ESP on it.

Your right but on my Mondeo the ESP button operates both controls for stability and traction. They normally work in tandem with power been cut and braking applied to individual wheels to control the under or oversteer.

amazes me that people are saying how they turn it off on windy roads/in the dry. Been watching too much TopGear I reckon 😀 It's there to make cars safer, less likley to kill people, why on earth would you switch it off (unless driving on snow where switchng off is often reccomended)

I think people are confusing traction control with ESP

Linked in many cars. The VAG cars have a button to disable traction control if ESP isn't fitted and to disable ESP (and traction control) if it is. It allows a bit of wheelspin in our Caddy but I've never felt it held it back (though my instinct is to back off when the wheels start spinning)

How do they know where the limits are then? You know, those limits that are easily reached in emergency unforeseeable situations?

I'm still struggling with this. Just hope I'm not on the roads when you're "finding the limits" of your car.

amazes me that people are saying how they turn it off on windy roads/in the dry.

yep - I wonder if they turn off the airbags "when it is safe" too? 😉

amazes me that people are saying how they turn it off on windy roads/in the dry. Been watching too much TopGear I reckon

Cause the electronic nanny doesn't like me going sideways.

Its like having the wife in the car 😀

I'd definitely go for it. Like some others above have also said, I've been on various advanced and high speed driving courses for work and all the instructors swear by it. A well designed ESP system won't stop you having fun in the car, but will almost certainly stop you killing yourself.

ABS might help you to steer under extreme braking but as far as I can see ESP is for muppet drivers who don't know how to control their cars

I'd be very surprised if, in a situation that demanded it, you would be able to control a car to safety to the same extent as ESP can. A front wheel slide (which, generally speaking it will be guarding against), is one of the trickiest a manoeveurs to perform in an emergency - ESP will almost completely cut out the need to do it at all.

Dunno. Not a driving expert like, but the light does say ESP on it.

As above. ESP is TC and ESP in my car.

Helped the other day in the passat (B5.5) with a touch of aquaplaining in a corner, because I was being a dullard. 😳 😯
Get turned off when going up hill in the snow.

Isn't it going to be a legal requirement on all cars sold in the EU soon? Apart from the snow problem (which can surely be designed out) I can't see a downside - most people have no clue how to handle a car on the limit, least of all in a panic accident avoidance situation. I've decided I should stop driving cars fast after cooking my brakes at the weekend - MTBs raise your limits too much for the public highway!

Isn't it going to be a legal requirement on all cars sold in the EU soon? Apart from the snow problem (which can surely be designed out) I can't see a downside - most people have no clue how to handle a car on the limit, least of all in a panic accident avoidance situation

It's been a legal requirement in Europe since last year for new vehicles. Any existing models can be sold without it until 2018 I think.

The snow problem is the main reason you can turn it off. A lot of cars will now have a winter mode which will sort out the TC, ESP, etc itself so you don't have to faff around turning ESP off.

Everyday driving, no matter what the road conditions, in a modern car without ESP on (or TC, or any other electronic aid) just seems stupid to me - they are designed well enough that they won't kick in until you really need it and when they do, they will get you out of situations that probably 99% of the population couldn't handle. When I had the chance to test out various of the systems, when you finally got them to kick in I would be very glad if it had happened out on the road!

part from the snow problem (which can surely be designed out)

Button to disable, pretty sure it resets when you restart the car so you can't leave it off.

I'd be very surprised if, in a situation that demanded it, you would be able to control a car to safety to the same extent as ESP can

Yep. As I understand it ESP can brake each wheel individually to correct the skid. So unless you have four brake pedals you are starting at an immediate disadvantage! 😀

Some interesting reading on Wiki as always: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

"The NHTSA in United States concluded that ESC reduces crashes by 35%. Additionally, Sport utility vehicles (SUVs) with stability control are involved in 67% fewer accidents than SUVs without the system. The United States Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) issued its own study in June 2006 showing that up to 10,000 fatal US crashes could be avoided annually if all vehicles were equipped with ESC"

Used to flash up all the time in our last car (Laguna Turbo). Probably because I was trying to drive it like the car before that (206 GTi).

In normal driving (ie not wet/slippy) I can't remember it ever showing its face on our current Megane 225 Cup presumably because I haven't pushed the car anywhere near its pretty scary limits?

Nice to know it's there to help if I do ever have a Maldonado moment though.

slainte 🙂 rob

turn mine off on my A3 if I want to make any kind of progress on twisty roads.

The A3 isn't the best handling car, however either your tyres are shot, your suspensions shot, or your a cr@p driver and lots of tugging on the steering, hard acceleration/braking makes you feel like your awesome and quick.

Having said that a mate of mine who is an Ex British category rally champion was making good progress in an A3 he borrowed and the light was flashing all the time.

ESP systems are great and can really help get you out of a mess, but only if you don't react to the car when things are going wrong. When I first got my MX5 with ESP, when pushing on in the wet it was awful at first having it switched on.

I would feel the point at which grip would go at the back and begin to apply opposite lock or lift off the accelerator a bit, which would result in the car doing all kinds of pitching all over the place. Basically I was trying to correct the loss of grip and so was the computer.

With the ESP off that wouldn't happen.

With ESP on, you should not react to what is going wrong and basically keep your foot down and not alter steering input. Its very counter intuative, especially in a rwd car. The computer will then make sure you get round the corner.

I'm not too sure if ESP systems can work properly though unless there is some accelerator input happening. I certainly know when I have tried to get ESP to work in the MX5 without the accelerator it wouldn't and the same in an Merc SLK.

Best time I have had with ESP was in the snow in the MX5, it literraly crabbed the car down the road. I had about 3/4 thorttle and I could feel it braking each brake indivdually, trying to keep the car going forward.

People mentioning the snow - for the OP, ESP on my berlingo seemed to work particularly well in the snow (better with than without).

But I'm not a driving expert, so what do I know! Made it easier to keep the car going where I wanted it to, so it's all good!

Yes, apparently.

[url= http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr4608.pdf ]Read Page 5[/url]

ESC reduces the probability that a car will be in a fatal crash by 23 percent,
the agency found. The corresponding percentage for SUVs, pickups,
and vans is 20 percent. Fatal single-vehicle rollover crashes are reduced even
more — 56 percent for cars and 74 percent for the other vehicles. Institute
research also shows benefits (see Status Report, June 19, 2010).

In normal driving (ie not wet/slippy) I can't remember it ever showing its face on our current Megane 225 Cup presumably because I haven't pushed the car anywhere near its pretty scary limits?

I would feel the point at which grip would go at the back and begin to apply opposite lock or lift off the accelerator a bit, which would result in the car doing all kinds of pitching all over the place. Basically I was trying to correct the loss of grip and so was the computer.

With the ESP off that wouldn't happen.

The thing is that ESP, is not only useful for when you are pushing it and step over the cars limits. It can kick in at an absolutely mundane pace, but in doing so save yours or a pedestrians life.

The example my instructor gave me is to imagine you are turning right into a side-road. As you start to turn in (so we'll say you are going what, 10-15mph maybe), you hit a patch of ice/diesel/banana skins and the front end starts to slide (not understeer, a proper front wheel skid). Now imagine that there is a mother with her child waiting to cross the side road and you are now sliding towards them. The natural tendency (which anyone not trained would undoubtedly do, and probably the majority of those with training as well) would be to try and turn the car more to make the corner - which will just make the slide worse. The manual way of correcting it is that you need to straighten the car up until it gets grip, then try the turn again - repeating until you get round the corner. This means you have to actively point the car at the mother and child in order to regain grip. Now if you, in a panic situation, can calmly do that then you are a much MUCH bigger man than me! In this situation, with ESP on, it would sort itself out. OK, you might still scare yourself and the mother and child silly, but the very good chances are you won't hit them. That is the sort of situation you could face on your daily drive when you least expect it and you are NOWHERE near the cars limits.

but only if you don't react to the car when things are going wrong.

This, if you steer into a skid and then the ESP kicks in it tends to make you lurch accros the road.

With ESP on, you should not react to what is going wrong and basically keep your foot down and not alter steering input. Its very counter intuative, especially in a rwd car. The computer will then make sure you get round the corner.

I think in the majority of situations that ESP kicks in its over so quick that most drivers won't have time to react. The newest ESP systems can take control of the throttle an increase power too though if they need to.

Are you all talking about the same thing? Citroen offer "Grip Control" which I thought sends the power to the (front) wheel with most grip? (Cost about £400 when I first heard about it a couple of years ago) So improves traction in slippery conditions. Traction control/ESP detects wheel-spin and reduces/cuts out engine power until all wheels are rotating at [s]the same[/s] a similar speed. Supposed to be "almost as good as" 4x4. Seemed to be a good idea to me.

In the best STW tradition, I'm no expert and done no research whatsoever. So might/could/probably am totally wrong.

Edited for some accuracy, also [url= http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2010-12/grip-control/ ]Link[/url]

The NHTSA in United States concluded that ESC reduces crashes by 35%.

Yeah but that's just for plebs. Really cool awsum drivers like me are such f'in fantasic drivers that we are better than everything ever innit. FK YEAH!

until all wheels are rotating at the same speed

Might find it difficult to go round corners if all your wheels are rotating at the same speed!

I think in the majority of situations that ESP kicks in its over so quick that most drivers won't have time to react. The newest ESP systems can take control of the throttle an increase power too though if they need to.

This and it really does work on country snow piled corners as the ratio of power to each wheel is controlled with spot on precision timing.

WAY FOR SAFE-TAY! 😆

Traction control/ESP detects wheel-spin and reduces/cuts out engine power until all wheels are rotating at the same speed. Supposed to be "almost as good as" 4x4. Seemed to be a good idea to me.

Not quite. ESP (Electronic Stability Protection) is designed to get your car back in a straight line if it is moving laterally from the direction you are pointing (i.e. you are sliding). It does this by individually braking the wheels and/or applying torque to one/both of the driving wheels (depending on drive system etc). Straight traction control is what will cut the spark/injection in order for the wheels to stop spinning and regain grip. Again, fancier cars which can control torque to each wheel are even better at this - but then you are generally in a 4wd at that point anyway! A more advanced version, which isn't really in production cars yet, is torque vectoring where torque is applied to each driven wheel differently in order to pull/push the car round a corner - essentially the opposite of ESP.

Not quite. ESP (Electronic Stability Protection) is designed to get your car back in a straight line if it is moving laterally from the direction you are pointing

If it's on then yes. But (as most of this thread has alluded to...) it is usually just a button press away to turn it off and then you can slide to your hearts content! 🙂 But for when you aren't on track then it is a damn good idea to keep it on!

A more advanced version, which isn't really in production cars yet, is torque vectoring where torque is applied to each driven wheel differently in order to pull/push the car round a corner - essentially the opposite of ESP

Fancy pants Jap cars like the Mitsubishi Evo and the Skyline (it even has active 4 wheel steering) have had it for a few years

I thought it also worked on corners so it can keep on the same corner...?

Edited for some accuracy, also Link

Cheers for the link. This where you get into a slightly grey area... Basically, all of these systems (ESP, TC, ABS, etc) all use the same set of sensors - generally a wheel speed sensor on each corner, a yaw sensor and a steering input sensor (plus some others depending on the system). They all do essentially the same thing - either applying each wheels brake, or applying torque to each wheel - but do so in different ways. What is usually meant by ESP, and the discussion in here, is the system that will react to a car sliding off course and try to correct it. The advanced traction systems which help in snow, sand, mud, etc are just extensions of this and will be coupled with the TC and ABS systems. ESP on it's own is a safety feature, but coupled with the others it becomes a driving aid.

Fancy pants Jap cars like the Mitsubishi Evo and the Skyline (it even has active 4 wheel steering) have had it for a few years

Quite right, I had forgotten about those!

I thought it also worked on corners so it can keep on the same corner...?

Yup, it will do. In most basic terms it looks for a yaw or acceleration that is not in the direction and proportional to the steering input. So, if you are going round a corner and the back or front starts to step out, the car will start to yaw and slide disproportionately from your steering input and the ESP will kick in to get you back on course.

Get it...if only just for the entertainment value when you do turn it off...

So, if you are going round a corner and the back or front starts to step out, the car will start to yaw and slide disproportionately from your steering input and the ESP will kick in to get you back on course.

But very occasionally you're steering input might not indicate your intended direction of travel, which is why you have the option of switching it off.

But 99% of the time ESP is a very good thing

Yeah, absolutely. If you are in a position to be putting the car at it's limit knowingly then that is exactly what the button is there for (although, most non-sportscars won't turn it off entirely, it will still be there if you really lose control!). But for popping down the shops, it will react orders of magnitude times faster than the driver can if you hit a slippery patch.

I have been on a few Bosch courses regarding ESP. I think someone earlier got it a little confused with Asr (anti skid reduction) but yes essentially it does control the wheels that have traction. If you think about it the wheels with any traction are the ones which can effect any situation.

We were driven in vehicles loaded with upto 1t of load at different heights. This was to demonstrate the different ways the system worked. Surprisingly the more loaded the vehicle the better the system performed. The weight improved the traction.

Anyhow the guy drove at 60mph and demonstrated a situation where a child or a deer ran out in front of you. He didn't lift of the accelerator at any time.

A rapid steering input resulted in the vehicle breaking 1,2,3,4 wheels independently and without him even touching the brake pedal. This took into account the load, the traction, the speed and the steering input. We are not able to reproduce this in any way. The breaking was so violent the front of the vehicle nearly ground out but the vehicle actually behaved rather amazingly.

We also got to take the vehicle on a few different skid pans. It was near impossible to get the vehicle out of control.

I would have it through choice and it is coming in for I think 2014/2015 mandatory

I'm all for safety features on a normal car, assuming you're willing to risk the complexity of something that can fail. It's a berlingo, it needs all the help it can get in dodgy situations and you don't sound like the sort of person who can out-perform a computer with high speed control of 4 wheels independantly, or the sort of person who will be attempting to drift it 😀

Slightly OT, I'm a bit disturbed that people have commented they have never lost control of a car. I'd be concerned if they said they'd never lost control of their curent car, let alone any car. How do they know where the limits are then? You know, those limits that are easily reached in emergency unforeseeable situations?

2 reasoing.

1) I can throw the back end of the midget out on wet roundabouts very easily, doesnt make it out of controll, but yes i do therefore know the limits of it's grip. Would it make me react differently in an emergency? No, I'd still slam on the brakes and do as much steerign as I still could.

2) I can throw the Focus round a mini roundabout, at 60, in the wet, so when driving within the law it must be pretty much impossible to make it skid. I have however 'tested' the ABS on the way to get the old tyres changed. F*** me modern cars can stop quickly, I'd picked a point up the road where I reckond I'd come to a halt and it was about 1/3rd that (from about 70)!

Bessides, I prefer the option of leaving plenty of room and looking where I'm going, therefore I've never had to deal with an emergency, plenty of annimals/kids run out, but I've never had problems stopping in time so I'd not class them as emergencies.

F*** me modern cars can stop quickly,

Is there a risk that you could set the airbags off doing that? Or do they always need a "thud" rather than a sudden stop?

No chance of setting the air bags off with anything modern brakes could do. If you think about hitting a brick wall or something, you can go from a decent old speed to nothing in a a fraction of a second which is what will set the airbags off.

No chance of setting the air bags off with anything modern brakes could do. If you think about hitting a brick wall or something, you can go from a decent old speed to nothing in a a fraction of a second which is what will set the airbags off.

I always thought in was sensors in the bumpers, otherwise stuff like bottoming out the suspension would set them off?

Coffee king its a berlingo it needs all the help it can get to get into a dodgy situation.......

Jambo, I've made progress without it kicking in - I shudder to think how fast you must be going to make that happen.

:waves:

to be fair its only a couple of steep hairpins that really upset it but it pretty easy to get the light flashing away if the surface isn't so good.

and anyway, why would you buy a quattro and not want to four wheel drift...