Dunno. Not a driving expert like, but the light does say ESP on it.
As above. ESP is TC and ESP in my car.
Helped the other day in the passat (B5.5) with a touch of aquaplaining in a corner, because I was being a dullard. 😳 😯
Get turned off when going up hill in the snow.
Isn't it going to be a legal requirement on all cars sold in the EU soon? Apart from the snow problem (which can surely be designed out) I can't see a downside - most people have no clue how to handle a car on the limit, least of all in a panic accident avoidance situation. I've decided I should stop driving cars fast after cooking my brakes at the weekend - MTBs raise your limits too much for the public highway!
Isn't it going to be a legal requirement on all cars sold in the EU soon? Apart from the snow problem (which can surely be designed out) I can't see a downside - most people have no clue how to handle a car on the limit, least of all in a panic accident avoidance situation
It's been a legal requirement in Europe since last year for new vehicles. Any existing models can be sold without it until 2018 I think.
The snow problem is the main reason you can turn it off. A lot of cars will now have a winter mode which will sort out the TC, ESP, etc itself so you don't have to faff around turning ESP off.
Everyday driving, no matter what the road conditions, in a modern car without ESP on (or TC, or any other electronic aid) just seems stupid to me - they are designed well enough that they won't kick in until you really need it and when they do, they will get you out of situations that probably 99% of the population couldn't handle. When I had the chance to test out various of the systems, when you finally got them to kick in I would be very glad if it had happened out on the road!
part from the snow problem (which can surely be designed out)
Button to disable, pretty sure it resets when you restart the car so you can't leave it off.
I'd be very surprised if, in a situation that demanded it, you would be able to control a car to safety to the same extent as ESP can
Yep. As I understand it ESP can brake each wheel individually to correct the skid. So unless you have four brake pedals you are starting at an immediate disadvantage! 😀
Some interesting reading on Wiki as always: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control
"The NHTSA in United States concluded that ESC reduces crashes by 35%. Additionally, Sport utility vehicles (SUVs) with stability control are involved in 67% fewer accidents than SUVs without the system. The United States Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) issued its own study in June 2006 showing that up to 10,000 fatal US crashes could be avoided annually if all vehicles were equipped with ESC"
Used to flash up all the time in our last car (Laguna Turbo). Probably because I was trying to drive it like the car before that (206 GTi).
In normal driving (ie not wet/slippy) I can't remember it ever showing its face on our current Megane 225 Cup presumably because I haven't pushed the car anywhere near its pretty scary limits?
Nice to know it's there to help if I do ever have a Maldonado moment though.
slainte 🙂 rob
turn mine off on my A3 if I want to make any kind of progress on twisty roads.
The A3 isn't the best handling car, however either your tyres are shot, your suspensions shot, or your a cr@p driver and lots of tugging on the steering, hard acceleration/braking makes you feel like your awesome and quick.
Having said that a mate of mine who is an Ex British category rally champion was making good progress in an A3 he borrowed and the light was flashing all the time.
ESP systems are great and can really help get you out of a mess, but only if you don't react to the car when things are going wrong. When I first got my MX5 with ESP, when pushing on in the wet it was awful at first having it switched on.
I would feel the point at which grip would go at the back and begin to apply opposite lock or lift off the accelerator a bit, which would result in the car doing all kinds of pitching all over the place. Basically I was trying to correct the loss of grip and so was the computer.
With the ESP off that wouldn't happen.
With ESP on, you should not react to what is going wrong and basically keep your foot down and not alter steering input. Its very counter intuative, especially in a rwd car. The computer will then make sure you get round the corner.
I'm not too sure if ESP systems can work properly though unless there is some accelerator input happening. I certainly know when I have tried to get ESP to work in the MX5 without the accelerator it wouldn't and the same in an Merc SLK.
Best time I have had with ESP was in the snow in the MX5, it literraly crabbed the car down the road. I had about 3/4 thorttle and I could feel it braking each brake indivdually, trying to keep the car going forward.
People mentioning the snow - for the OP, ESP on my berlingo seemed to work particularly well in the snow (better with than without).
But I'm not a driving expert, so what do I know! Made it easier to keep the car going where I wanted it to, so it's all good!
Yes, apparently.
[url= http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr4608.pdf ]Read Page 5[/url]
ESC reduces the probability that a car will be in a fatal crash by 23 percent,
the agency found. The corresponding percentage for SUVs, pickups,
and vans is 20 percent. Fatal single-vehicle rollover crashes are reduced even
more — 56 percent for cars and 74 percent for the other vehicles. Institute
research also shows benefits (see Status Report, June 19, 2010).
In normal driving (ie not wet/slippy) I can't remember it ever showing its face on our current Megane 225 Cup presumably because I haven't pushed the car anywhere near its pretty scary limits?
I would feel the point at which grip would go at the back and begin to apply opposite lock or lift off the accelerator a bit, which would result in the car doing all kinds of pitching all over the place. Basically I was trying to correct the loss of grip and so was the computer.With the ESP off that wouldn't happen.
The thing is that ESP, is not only useful for when you are pushing it and step over the cars limits. It can kick in at an absolutely mundane pace, but in doing so save yours or a pedestrians life.
The example my instructor gave me is to imagine you are turning right into a side-road. As you start to turn in (so we'll say you are going what, 10-15mph maybe), you hit a patch of ice/diesel/banana skins and the front end starts to slide (not understeer, a proper front wheel skid). Now imagine that there is a mother with her child waiting to cross the side road and you are now sliding towards them. The natural tendency (which anyone not trained would undoubtedly do, and probably the majority of those with training as well) would be to try and turn the car more to make the corner - which will just make the slide worse. The manual way of correcting it is that you need to straighten the car up until it gets grip, then try the turn again - repeating until you get round the corner. This means you have to actively point the car at the mother and child in order to regain grip. Now if you, in a panic situation, can calmly do that then you are a much MUCH bigger man than me! In this situation, with ESP on, it would sort itself out. OK, you might still scare yourself and the mother and child silly, but the very good chances are you won't hit them. That is the sort of situation you could face on your daily drive when you least expect it and you are NOWHERE near the cars limits.
but only if you don't react to the car when things are going wrong.
This, if you steer into a skid and then the ESP kicks in it tends to make you lurch accros the road.
With ESP on, you should not react to what is going wrong and basically keep your foot down and not alter steering input. Its very counter intuative, especially in a rwd car. The computer will then make sure you get round the corner.
I think in the majority of situations that ESP kicks in its over so quick that most drivers won't have time to react. The newest ESP systems can take control of the throttle an increase power too though if they need to.
Are you all talking about the same thing? Citroen offer "Grip Control" which I thought sends the power to the (front) wheel with most grip? (Cost about £400 when I first heard about it a couple of years ago) So improves traction in slippery conditions. Traction control/ESP detects wheel-spin and reduces/cuts out engine power until all wheels are rotating at [s]the same[/s] a similar speed. Supposed to be "almost as good as" 4x4. Seemed to be a good idea to me.
In the best STW tradition, I'm no expert and done no research whatsoever. So might/could/probably am totally wrong.
Edited for some accuracy, also [url= http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2010-12/grip-control/ ]Link[/url]
The NHTSA in United States concluded that ESC reduces crashes by 35%.
Yeah but that's just for plebs. Really cool awsum drivers like me are such f'in fantasic drivers that we are better than everything ever innit. FK YEAH!
until all wheels are rotating at the same speed
Might find it difficult to go round corners if all your wheels are rotating at the same speed!
I think in the majority of situations that ESP kicks in its over so quick that most drivers won't have time to react. The newest ESP systems can take control of the throttle an increase power too though if they need to.
This and it really does work on country snow piled corners as the ratio of power to each wheel is controlled with spot on precision timing.
WAY FOR SAFE-TAY! 😆
Traction control/ESP detects wheel-spin and reduces/cuts out engine power until all wheels are rotating at the same speed. Supposed to be "almost as good as" 4x4. Seemed to be a good idea to me.
Not quite. ESP (Electronic Stability Protection) is designed to get your car back in a straight line if it is moving laterally from the direction you are pointing (i.e. you are sliding). It does this by individually braking the wheels and/or applying torque to one/both of the driving wheels (depending on drive system etc). Straight traction control is what will cut the spark/injection in order for the wheels to stop spinning and regain grip. Again, fancier cars which can control torque to each wheel are even better at this - but then you are generally in a 4wd at that point anyway! A more advanced version, which isn't really in production cars yet, is torque vectoring where torque is applied to each driven wheel differently in order to pull/push the car round a corner - essentially the opposite of ESP.
Not quite. ESP (Electronic Stability Protection) is designed to get your car back in a straight line if it is moving laterally from the direction you are pointing
Does this mean donuts and power sliding are off the agenda? 😥
If it's on then yes. But (as most of this thread has alluded to...) it is usually just a button press away to turn it off and then you can slide to your hearts content! 🙂 But for when you aren't on track then it is a damn good idea to keep it on!
A more advanced version, which isn't really in production cars yet, is torque vectoring where torque is applied to each driven wheel differently in order to pull/push the car round a corner - essentially the opposite of ESP
Fancy pants Jap cars like the Mitsubishi Evo and the Skyline (it even has active 4 wheel steering) have had it for a few years
I thought it also worked on corners so it can keep on the same corner...?
Edited for some accuracy, also Link
Cheers for the link. This where you get into a slightly grey area... Basically, all of these systems (ESP, TC, ABS, etc) all use the same set of sensors - generally a wheel speed sensor on each corner, a yaw sensor and a steering input sensor (plus some others depending on the system). They all do essentially the same thing - either applying each wheels brake, or applying torque to each wheel - but do so in different ways. What is usually meant by ESP, and the discussion in here, is the system that will react to a car sliding off course and try to correct it. The advanced traction systems which help in snow, sand, mud, etc are just extensions of this and will be coupled with the TC and ABS systems. ESP on it's own is a safety feature, but coupled with the others it becomes a driving aid.
Fancy pants Jap cars like the Mitsubishi Evo and the Skyline (it even has active 4 wheel steering) have had it for a few years
Quite right, I had forgotten about those!
I thought it also worked on corners so it can keep on the same corner...?
Yup, it will do. In most basic terms it looks for a yaw or acceleration that is not in the direction and proportional to the steering input. So, if you are going round a corner and the back or front starts to step out, the car will start to yaw and slide disproportionately from your steering input and the ESP will kick in to get you back on course.
Get it...if only just for the entertainment value when you do turn it off...
So, if you are going round a corner and the back or front starts to step out, the car will start to yaw and slide disproportionately from your steering input and the ESP will kick in to get you back on course.
But very occasionally you're steering input might not indicate your intended direction of travel, which is why you have the option of switching it off.
But 99% of the time ESP is a very good thing
Yeah, absolutely. If you are in a position to be putting the car at it's limit knowingly then that is exactly what the button is there for (although, most non-sportscars won't turn it off entirely, it will still be there if you really lose control!). But for popping down the shops, it will react orders of magnitude times faster than the driver can if you hit a slippery patch.
I have been on a few Bosch courses regarding ESP. I think someone earlier got it a little confused with Asr (anti skid reduction) but yes essentially it does control the wheels that have traction. If you think about it the wheels with any traction are the ones which can effect any situation.
We were driven in vehicles loaded with upto 1t of load at different heights. This was to demonstrate the different ways the system worked. Surprisingly the more loaded the vehicle the better the system performed. The weight improved the traction.
Anyhow the guy drove at 60mph and demonstrated a situation where a child or a deer ran out in front of you. He didn't lift of the accelerator at any time.
A rapid steering input resulted in the vehicle breaking 1,2,3,4 wheels independently and without him even touching the brake pedal. This took into account the load, the traction, the speed and the steering input. We are not able to reproduce this in any way. The breaking was so violent the front of the vehicle nearly ground out but the vehicle actually behaved rather amazingly.
We also got to take the vehicle on a few different skid pans. It was near impossible to get the vehicle out of control.
I would have it through choice and it is coming in for I think 2014/2015 mandatory
I'm all for safety features on a normal car, assuming you're willing to risk the complexity of something that can fail. It's a berlingo, it needs all the help it can get in dodgy situations and you don't sound like the sort of person who can out-perform a computer with high speed control of 4 wheels independantly, or the sort of person who will be attempting to drift it 😀
Slightly OT, I'm a bit disturbed that people have commented they have never lost control of a car. I'd be concerned if they said they'd never lost control of their curent car, let alone any car. How do they know where the limits are then? You know, those limits that are easily reached in emergency unforeseeable situations?
2 reasoing.
1) I can throw the back end of the midget out on wet roundabouts very easily, doesnt make it out of controll, but yes i do therefore know the limits of it's grip. Would it make me react differently in an emergency? No, I'd still slam on the brakes and do as much steerign as I still could.
2) I can throw the Focus round a mini roundabout, at 60, in the wet, so when driving within the law it must be pretty much impossible to make it skid. I have however 'tested' the ABS on the way to get the old tyres changed. F*** me modern cars can stop quickly, I'd picked a point up the road where I reckond I'd come to a halt and it was about 1/3rd that (from about 70)!
Bessides, I prefer the option of leaving plenty of room and looking where I'm going, therefore I've never had to deal with an emergency, plenty of annimals/kids run out, but I've never had problems stopping in time so I'd not class them as emergencies.
F*** me modern cars can stop quickly,
Is there a risk that you could set the airbags off doing that? Or do they always need a "thud" rather than a sudden stop?
No chance of setting the air bags off with anything modern brakes could do. If you think about hitting a brick wall or something, you can go from a decent old speed to nothing in a a fraction of a second which is what will set the airbags off.
No chance of setting the air bags off with anything modern brakes could do. If you think about hitting a brick wall or something, you can go from a decent old speed to nothing in a a fraction of a second which is what will set the airbags off.
I always thought in was sensors in the bumpers, otherwise stuff like bottoming out the suspension would set them off?
Coffee king its a berlingo it needs all the help it can get to get into a dodgy situation.......
Jambo, I've made progress without it kicking in - I shudder to think how fast you must be going to make that happen.
:waves:
to be fair its only a couple of steep hairpins that really upset it but it pretty easy to get the light flashing away if the surface isn't so good.
and anyway, why would you buy a quattro and not want to four wheel drift...
I tested my ABS earlier today. Car pulling out of a side road to my left; stopped, looked *right at me* so I relaxed because I figured he'd seen me, and then he pulled out anyway. Cue five sets of skid marks.
some of the comments on here make for frightening reading. i can definietly recommend a PROPER advanced driving course where this will get explained and demonstrated to all those that think its a bad thing. some of the comments show an unbelievable lack of understanding of what it does and basic understanding of car control/vehicle dynamics. i wouldn'd want to be on the road with some of you!!
Sadly, i will be and thats what ESP is there for, as some have mentioned in 99% of driving, you would never know its there, it is like the safety net, there to catch you when the unforseen happens and the responsible driver has to get out of the way of some inept wanna be F1 driver finding the limits of his/her car.
looked *right at me* so I relaxed because I figured he'd seen me
Every single lesson I had, my instructor kept telling me to assume that "everyone is a moron".
I learned in a city, so there were plenty of opportunities (cyclists, pedestrians and other drivers) in each lesson to put the principle into action.
It's odd, but I actually prefer the 100% morons because they are more predictable (e.g. a private hire taxi WILL pull out in front of you with no warning, and that pedestrian with his hood up in the rain WILL wander across the road you're turning into without looking). It's when I assume that someone is going to act sensibly that I seem to end up on the brakes (your example is a good one Cougar, some making eye contact but still pulling out).
Maybe it's just Glasweigans, but whenever it rains it's like a full moon, everyone starts driving/walking/cycling in a really weird and unpredicable way.
Every single lesson I had, my instructor kept telling me to assume that "everyone is a moron".
You are a moron. 😛
I can't argue with that 🙂
A couple of years ago I drove along a country road in winter that I thought had been gritted, but hadn't. I'd noticed the ESP had "grabbed" the car as I came around a shaded bend fairly slowly but put it down to the fact that it was early morning and the gritter had missed a bit. Save number 1.
Shortly afterwards on a straight section the car kept twitching from side to side with the ESP light flashing continuously on an off-camber section. Thinking that it was a fault in the system I tried to slow down but the road was complete sheet ice. The two cars behind me slid off the road. Save number 2.
Would never have another car without it. The system protected me twice in one trip, and that's not even considering the ability to safely perform violent avoidance manoeuvres at the limit of the car's capability.
I always thought in was sensors in the bumpers, otherwise stuff like bottoming out the suspension would set them off?
No, it is deceleration that sets them off, but only very high G forces, like I dunno 15g or something. Far more than you would experience unless you hit something.
I can throw the back end of the midget out on wet roundabouts very easily, doesnt make it out of controll
I would tend to disagree. Next time you are tail sliding, try stopping the car. Not sure it'd be particularly easy. Not being able to stop in an emergency is a fairly fundamental to the issue of control
[i]and that pedestrian with his hood up in the rain WILL wander across the road you're turning into without looking[/i]
The ped does have the right of way when you are turning into a side road so obviously you were prepared to give way anyway, right?! Its just self-preservation (and not knowing the highway code) that means most peds voluntarily give way.
Slightly OT, I'm a bit disturbed that people have commented they have never lost control of a car. I'd be concerned if they said they'd never lost control of their curent car, let alone any car. How do they know where the limits are then? You know, those limits that are easily reached in emergency unforeseeable situations?
What limits, in normal driving the limits you never get near, the limits you can only reach by driving like a *?
So are you advocating drivers drive like ** to find the limits of the car?
Smaller then the Berlingo admittedly, but blimey!
Is there a risk ESP will mean manufacturers might start being a bit more relaxed about how stable their cars are knowing ESP will sort everything out?
