[Closed] Hugo Chavez RIP

"You are a donkey, Mr Danger!" 😆

"You are a donkey, Mr Danger!"

😆 indeed!

It's the way he says "donnnnn-KEY". Brilliant.

"The devil was here yesterday. And it still smells of sulphur."

The yanks done it

Cripes..

Ken Livingstone will be gutted.

enfht - Member

Ken Livingstone will be gutted.

All being well, he'll be next.

Sean Penn even more so.

The Devil is right at home. The Devil, the Devil himself, is right in the house.
And the Devil came here yesterday. Yesterday the Devil came here. Right here. [crosses himself] And it smells of sulphur still today.
Yesterday, ladies and gentlemen, from this rostrum, the president of the United States, the gentleman to whom I refer as the Devil, came here, talking as if he owned the world. Truly. As the owner of the world.

🙂 I believe this was at the UN

RIP Dear Leader ...

Good riddance, the guy was a ****ing ****.

A good man IMO. Shame.

He wasn't a good man - he was a corrupt tin pot wannabe dictator hell bent on power through populism who polarized venezualen politics and consequently ****ed over the entire countries political landscape.

A sad day for the Russian arms industry and Chinese oil importers, lets hope those loans were secured against future production.

bravohotel8er said> All being well, he'll be next.
Really? Wishing a lingering death from cancer on someone? What a ****.

Difficult to form an objective opinion on the guy given the massive propaganda campaign/coup attempts/subterfuge against him sponsored by the US.

tin pot wannabe dictator

Wannabe dictator ? Well tell me then, why did he keep standing for elections and winning ? Which is more that our leader has managed to do.

And of the Venezuelan elections under Hugo Chavez, this is what former United States President Jimmy Carter, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for his democracy-promotion work with the Carter Center, had to say :

[i][b] "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-dcemonises-venezuelas-democracy ]Why the US demonises Venezuela's democracy[/url]

Proteus, what a ****.

proteus - Member

With the sad passing of "Lady" Margaret Thatcher impersonator Janet Brown today, do we get the chance for a wee dancing-on-the-witches-grave practice in?

It's what she would have wanted, etc.*

Posted 1 year ago # Report-Post

Wind your neck in princess 😉

I don't know what's worse on the is thread so far, the ignorance or the bile.I'm sure it will carry on till it implodes.....
Without me though.

Wannabe dictator ? Well tell me then, why did he keep standing for elections and winning ? Which is more that our leader has managed to do.

And of the Venezuelan elections under Hugo Chavez, this is what former United States President Jimmy Carter, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for his democracy-promotion work with the Carter Center, had to say :

"As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."

http://www.hrw.org/node/108974

Well bwaarp, you haven't explained why this "wannabe dictator" stood and won so many elections ? Providing a link to a US based organisation which is funded by wealthy Americans doesn't answer the question.

Well bwaarp, you haven't explained why this "wannabe dictator" stood and won so many elections ? Providing a link to a US based organisation which is funded by wealthy Americans doesn't answer the question.

Many allegations are corroborated by other NGO's - btw the guy who funds the organization has probably done more for poverty than Chavez.

So you think wrecking the countries GDP, attacking the free press, setting up publicly owned companies who only employ people who support him, making sure his opponents are monitored by Chavez's security teams, holding political prisoners Putin style.....etc ad naueum are signs of a good governance? He's paved the way for massive political and economic insability down the road, something a more moderate character would not have done (and still been able to pull off the reforms that he did).

The fact that he tried to blame his cancer on foreign enemies just highlouts the increasing absurdity (almost Iranian absurdity) that his office was descending into.

He was a wolf posing a housepet - the country will now go to shit in the power vacuum his death has left.

So you think wrecking the countries GDP, attacking the free press, setting up publicly owned companies who only employ people who support him, making sure his opponents are monitored by Chavez's security teams, holding political prisoners Putin style.....etc ad naueum are signs of a good governance? He's paved the way for massive political and economic insability down the road........

If the picture you paint was true and Venezuela had done so badly under Chavez then he would have been voted out of office a very long time ago. However he won 17 elections in 14 years, and he was still easily winning elections 14 years after first coming to power, something which even the most popular politicians we've ever had couldn't dream of doing.

You personally might think that Chavez did nothing for poverty but the Venezuelan people beg to differ.

Yes things might have been short of perfect, but that's hardly surprising when you consider that the most powerful and wealthiest nation on earth spent 14 years trying to overthrow, him by any means possible - including totally undemocratic means. Remember the US backed coup ? That actually happened - he was temporarily overthrown. The only reason he was reinstated as president was because of the huge groundswell of support he received from the people.

Can you imagine what the reaction would have been here in the UK if a foreign power had backed a coup in which the British prime minister was arrested at gun point and stripped of power ? Judging by our response to "the terrorist threat", which doesn't actually pose any real threat to our society, it would have been absolutely mental.

If the picture you paint was true and Venezuela had done so badly under Chavez then he would have been voted out of office a very long time ago. However he won 17 elections in 14 years, and he was still easily winning elections 14 years after first coming to power, something which even the most popular politicians we've ever had couldn't dream of doing.

You personally might think that Chavez did nothing for poverty but the Venezuelan people beg to differ.

This is the same Chavez that gained his majority in the last election by massive state sponsored character assaination of his opponents - calling one of them a "gay zionist".

Again, the Venezualen people would have been lifted out of poverty by a more moderate chacter. A man of higher morals than Hugo would not have exploited populist sentiments for his own personal agenda like Chavez has done.

Proteus pwned lol

I seldom post on this kind of issue but... the naivety of the pro-Chavez posters on here is quite staggering. The man was a corrupt, evil, murderous piece of scum and the world is definitely a better place without him, in the same way as it is without Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and a few others of their ilk.

Populism has always been very successful in appealing the the uneducated masses of Latin America and seem to work pretty well with the stupid on STW as well.

The fact that he tried to blame his cancer on foreign enemies just highlouts the increasing absurdity (almost Iranian absurdity) that his office was descending into.

Given the US' history in S America and their obvious hatred of Chavez, is it really that outlandish? Not saying its likely either, but it's hardly completely out of the question. Have you not read about all their attempts to kill Castro etc?

I seldom post on this kind of issue but... the naivety of the pro-Chavez posters on here is quite staggering. The man was a corrupt, evil, murderous piece of scum and the world is definitely a better place without him, in the same way as it is without Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and a few others of their ilk.

Comparing him to Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin is utterly ridiculous. And I would argue that it's staggeringly naive to believe that someone is either a noble hero, or an evil murdering dictator. The more likely and grown up view would be that he did some good things and some not so good things.

Tony Blair and George Bush have presided over the deaths of countless people and used deeply illiberal and illegal measures against their 'enemies' - going to compare them to Hitler and Pol Pot?

Also, even if Chavez had never done anything remotely undemocratic or repressive, do you think he would have been treated fairly by the US? It wouldn't be the first time they have attempted to oust a democratically elected socialisst leader in S America. And that's not some nutty conspiracy theory btw - it's well documented.

I think it's likely any leader might become somewhat paranoid and repressive when faced with the very real prospect of a US-backed coup against them.

Bwaarp. Chavez has been absent for a longtime. When he was weak why did no one seize control or fight it out?

Are you an American? The same that killed over 100,000 in Iraq alone bungling along like violent idiots? Perspective.

To be clear, Ernie is a self confessed Marxist. He just chooses to tone down his repugnant far-left opinions online.

I don't think we in the "west" will ever get the true story about Chavez, we don't speak the language (generaly) the press has it own agenda when reporting about him and Venezuellan politics seems to be a murky place.

He was a charismatic leader who riled up America and the "west" but was adored by the working class and poor of his country.

I didn't know STW had so many South American experts 😉

Chavez has had a huge impact on poverty levels in his country, has brought free healthcare to the masses and improved the education system dramatically. He was respected in Latin America for refusing to bow to Washington.

Some very dark posts on this thread, it's always interesting to hear other people's perspectives but its unusual to read opinions that are so obviously a result of US propaganda. It's not a surprise perhaps that people look for evidence to support their pre-existing political beliefs rather than confront an uncomfortable truth.

Any leader or government that shuts down the press is setting the seen for there own dictatorship. Many a dictator came into power on a popular vote, there is always really good reasons why this happens. Chavez was a dictator of a type but when you live in a country that treated its indigenous people so badly it was bound to get continuous support. He had to do so little to win them over, like get them food and education. Making the rich a little poorer is not an unpopular concept here, he did it.

Massive inequality allows dictators there in, they may not start out as dictators they eventually become one to a lesser or greater extent. It's happened here with individual leaders or parties in government. Take a look at the last 30 odd years, popular war anyone? Controls on the press anyone? No no that could not happen here, could it?

Populism has always been very successful in appealing the the uneducated masses of Latin America and seem to work pretty well with the stupid on STW as well.

I think you kind of lost any claims on the intellectual high ground with your comparisons to Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin.

Non-related but recently there was a comment

"America loves its guns more than its children"

The rich classes of America get richer on war. Thats not anti-US rhetoric, its common knowledge and BOY do they love firing their guns around the globe. China has a bigger Army yet doesn't go round telling EVERY country that it should have 'democracy' thrust upon them.

The man was a corrupt, evil, murderous piece of scum

Perfect qualifications for a politician.

For what he may have lacked in domestic policy, the fact that he managed to hold a stance against the US and capitalism for so long is commendable. Out of all the baddies - he was the best.

http://www.hrw.org/node/108974

It's worth noting that HRW have been criticised by numerous scholars (of South america in particular - e.g.> http://www.hrw.org/node/108974
- which is relevant in the context of the above document) for their pro-western, particularly pro US foreign policy bias, over Honduras, Haiti and Venezuela in particular - but also with regards Middle Eastern politics. That's not to say that everything in the HRW article is wrong - just that it's a matter of contention, which requires significantly more discussion and analysis than this article gives it.

I don't think Chavez was perfect, far from it, but I'd suggest that a "more moderate" person would have had more moderate policies, and been significantly less successful in terms of improving health care, education and poverty alleviation - it was only his extreme approach which allowed this to take place, and it will, with any luck (as long as America is kept in check) it will last because it was extreme, we've seen moderates (by comparison) in this country and others have their reforms dismantled - we can see it happen as we speak with the NHS and the school system in this country - had the '45 labour government been as extreme as Chavez, then it would have put in place significantly more safeguards for ordinary people against the government.

His only job was to improve the lot of his people.
If, on balance he achieved this then it is to his credit.
The added bonus is that he got right up the nose of Dubya and that makes him a hero I my book.

top man Hugo- will always be a working class hero-- as for the imperialist apologists on here......

Dunno about all the politics stuffs but he did have a massive pair of balls.
RIP.

Are you an American? The same that killed over 100,000 in Iraq alone bungling along like violent idiots? Perspective.

From Amnesty International's 2012 report on Venuzuela:

"Human rights defenders were threatened and politically motivated charges continued to be used against government critics. Accountability mechanisms to ensure justice or to act as an effective deterrent against police abuses remained weak. There were serious episodes of violence in the grossly overcrowded prison system leading to a number of deaths. "

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2012

Shame on the usual mix of useful idiots and fellow travellers on here who have lauded Chavez.

I know very little about him but George Galloway was on the radio singing his praises earlier on today. That is all I need to know.

I'm oot

Shame on the usual mix of useful idiots and fellow travellers on here who have lauded Chavez.

So the bits you quoted completely negate significantly improving living standards for hundreds of thousands of poor people? Grown ups can have a slightly more nuanced view than either evil man or hero. 🙄

I'm also sure you could find much worse stuff about many countries that we uncritically ally with btw.

Grown ups can have a slightly more nuanced view than either evil man or hero.

Come on Grum, you've been here long enough to know better than that 😀

"So the bits you quoted completely negate significantly improving living standards for hundreds of thousands of poor people? Grown ups can have a slightly more nuanced view than either evil man or hero."

Ahhh, the "but he did make the trains run on time" argument. 🙄 🙄

There were serious episodes of violence in the grossly overcrowded prison system leading to a number of deaths.

Comparing him to Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin is utterly ridiculous. And I would argue that it's staggeringly naive to believe that someone is either a noble hero, or an evil murdering dictator. The more likely and grown up view would be that he did some good things and some not so good things.

+1.

No saint, no sinner, but he did a hell of a lot for the poor there. A great deal more than our coalition does here, where they think the best way of addressing poverty is to create more of it. Unlike the USA where the VP remains in office for the rest of the term, or the UK where we don't even get the chance to elect our head of state, they will have another election.

Would we publicly cry if Cameron, Clegg or Thatcher died now?

Ahhh, the "but he did make the trains run on time" argument.

Yes, making the trains run on time is just the same. Is everything really so black and white in your world view? Pretty infantile way of looking at things.

Come on Grum, you've been here long enough to know better than that

Yeah I really should shouldn't I.

He pledged his armed forces would fight alongside the Argies in any future Falklands conflict.

His only job was to improve the lot of his people.
If, on balance he achieved this then it is to his credit.

Since 1999, the year he took over the presidency, Venezuela has had the lowest average GDP per capita growth rate and the highest inflation of any Latin American country except Haiti. It has also seen a fivefold increase in assassinations to arguably the highest murder rate in the world. In spite of having the largest oil reserves in the planet, he managed to reduce Venezuela's share of OPEC oil output from 4.8% to around 3%. He also managed to stimulate the largest out-migration of Venezuelans in memory.

Didn't the UK squander it's oil resources?

This probably sums discussion so far;

[img] [/img]

cranberry - Member
From Amnesty International's 2012 report on Venuzuela:

"Human rights defenders were threatened and politically motivated charges continued to be used against government critics. Accountability mechanisms to ensure justice or to act as an effective deterrent against police abuses remained weak. There were serious episodes of violence in the grossly overcrowded prison system leading to a number of deaths. "

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2012

Shame on the usual mix of useful idiots and fellow travellers on here who have lauded Chavez.

From the same organisation's report on the USA:

Forty-three men were executed during the year, and concerns about cruel prison conditions continued. Scores of detainees remained in indefinite military detention at Guantánamo. The administration announced its intention to pursue the death penalty against six of these detainees in trials by military commission. Some 3,000 people were held in the US detention facility on the Bagram air base in Afghanistan by the end of the year. Use of lethal force in the counter-terrorism context raised serious concerns, as did continuing reports of the use of excessive force in the domestic law enforcement context.

Thousands of prisoners in California went on hunger strike in July and October to protest about cruel conditions of isolation in the state’s Security Housing Units (SHUs). In the SHU at Pelican Bay State Prison more than 1,000 prisoners were confined to windowless cells for 22.5 hours a day, in conditions a court stated in 1995 “may press the outer bounds of what most humans can psychologically tolerate”. At the time of the hunger strike, more than 500 prisoners in Pelican Bay had spent at least 10 years in these conditions, and 78 had spent 20 years or more in the SHU. A number of reforms, including modifying procedures for assigning alleged gang members to indefinite SHU confinement, were under review at the end of the year. Amnesty International joined others in condemning disciplinary action taken against hunger strikers and urging an end to inhumane conditions. Thousands of prisoners remained in isolation in similar conditions in other states, including Arizona and Texas.

It's South America. It's not about White Hats and Black Hats. I don't think anyone for a moment is suggesting that Chazez is any sort of angel, and yes there is little doubt that he was culpable of mismanagement of the economy and a number of repressive measures but the fact is that he did also do a lot of good for the poor of his country.... hence his election success. The people who swallow whole the mainly US-led propaganda about Chavez are just as naive and misguided as the people who build him up as some sort of cross between Che Guevara and Jesus Christ. As supposedly "tin pot dictators" go, he was far from the worst.

Personally I'd me more concerned about what fills the vacuum now he's gone.

Bugger - looks like someone is in debt, then.

Defining success in helping the poor in terms of GDP growth percentages and share of OPEC oil output - interesting...

some sort of cross between Che Guevara and Jesus Christ

Che the murderer crossed with Jesus Christ, a heady mix.

<sigh>

Livingstone may well be an odious, corrupt little scrote, but in no way should anyone wish a painful death on him. Pathetic.

As is this thread, to be honest. So, with that, bye.

enfht - Member

To be clear, Ernie is a self confessed Marxist.

Shocking.

Well RIP

Interesting character and case study for an ideology in practice and to be able to compare his legacy with that of other left wing leaders such as Lula.

CFH +1 really no need.

Interesting character and case study for an ideology in practice and to be able to compare his legacy with that of other left wing leaders such as Lula.

Lula was more centre left wasn't he? An interesting comparison would be Evo Morales in Bolivia - many of his policies are similar to Chavez.

Well direct comparison are difficult obviously and Lula went from populist to more centre left agreed. I was meaning on who did more for their country, it's prospects, it's people etc. Whether respect for institutions is important?

Then there was his hero Bolivar, who by some accounts, carried a copy of [i]The Wealth of Nations[/i] with him!!!

Well, I presume Bolivar was a hero to many not because of his political views but because he spent his life kicking out the Spanish - it ties in very neatly with Chavez's anti-US rhetoric, when one thinks of direct and indirect imperialism. The other point about Adam Smith is that he was a moderate - see his writings on progressive taxation for example. So maybe not quite the paradox it appears to be.

Morales is interesting - freely elected, popular, re-nationalised key industry, opposed US interference. Sound familiar?

Ransos, I know nothing about Morales I'm afraid, so can't comment. But from a purely selfish perspective, the best result of any populiist measures in Vz was/is the incredible Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra. I saw them live last year and a much better role model that X-factor or BGT!!!!

(p.s. AS is indeed often misunderstood but progressive taxation is hardly a minority or even mildly extreme view!) I doubt they will find the [i]Road To Serfdom [/i] among Chavez's prized possessions!! 😉

Defining success in helping the poor in terms of GDP growth percentages and share of OPEC oil output - interesting...

(As an aside, it was almost impossible to write that without a string of cliches and mixed metaphors).

To be clear, Ernie is a self confessed Marxist.

This appears to be said as a form of insult. Shows just how far right we've been dragged in this country, politically.

Interesting that some commentators on here are bent on painting Chavez as 'evil'. How do you stand on people like this?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Livingstone may well be an odious, corrupt little scrote, but in no way should anyone wish a painful death on him. Pathetic.

I amusingly got a short ban on here for saying that 'at least Prince Phillip won't be around for too much longer [to make stupid often offensive comments]. In my opinion, nowhere near as offensive as the comments made here. I wonder if such moderation will be applied equally in this case?

(Not sure as to why Livingstone is really 'corrupt' though, as to my knowledge he's never been charged with anything fraudulent, merely had to endure various slanderous allegations by the right-wing press )

Interesting that some commentators on here are bent on painting Chavez as 'evil'. How do you stand on people like this?

Augusto has let himself down a bit there too

You leave the Queen out of this while she is poorly. Or should that be on the "throne" for the last few days.

You leave the Queen out of this while she is poorly. Or should that be on the "throne" for the last few days.

I like Aljazeera. That probably makes me an enemy of the US

Well... more just an enemy of Fox News really

[img] [/img]

Hhmmm.

So, what we've got here is a tiff between lovers and haters.

Reassuring to see that some things here, in the nut house, never change.
😉

Carry on !.

😆

Binners.

Do you think Mr Hill shaved his legs for that picture ?.

If so, would that make him a closet [i]Rouleur[/i] ?.

I'll take the two on the left. Well the far-left was lush. Shes probably a Grannie now though so more your type binners

bwaarp - Member

Again, the Venezualen people would have been lifted out of poverty by a more moderate chacter.

Possibly. But could a more moderate character have remained in control while doing it, without caving to foreign pressure? Seems less likely.

I'd turn it around a bit- what would have been Chavez's legacy without the intervention of the last superpower?

[i]I'll take the two on the left.[/i]

Are you sure ?, the one on the very far left is wearing shoes that do not match her bikini.

*warning signs*

😯

Oh, hang on !, I know !......

EDIT:
Hang on, none of them are wearing shoe that match their bikinis....

What's this "last superpower" stuff?

[i]What's this "last superpower" stuff?[/i]

The oil is running out. Word is, when it does, they are going to burn cyclists in order to [i]keep the lights on[/i].

HTH.