[Closed] Hugo Chavez RIP

There were serious episodes of violence in the grossly overcrowded prison system leading to a number of deaths.

Comparing him to Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin is utterly ridiculous. And I would argue that it's staggeringly naive to believe that someone is either a noble hero, or an evil murdering dictator. The more likely and grown up view would be that he did some good things and some not so good things.

+1.

No saint, no sinner, but he did a hell of a lot for the poor there. A great deal more than our coalition does here, where they think the best way of addressing poverty is to create more of it. Unlike the USA where the VP remains in office for the rest of the term, or the UK where we don't even get the chance to elect our head of state, they will have another election.

Would we publicly cry if Cameron, Clegg or Thatcher died now?

Ahhh, the "but he did make the trains run on time" argument.

Yes, making the trains run on time is just the same. Is everything really so black and white in your world view? Pretty infantile way of looking at things.

Come on Grum, you've been here long enough to know better than that

Yeah I really should shouldn't I.

He pledged his armed forces would fight alongside the Argies in any future Falklands conflict.

His only job was to improve the lot of his people.
If, on balance he achieved this then it is to his credit.

Since 1999, the year he took over the presidency, Venezuela has had the lowest average GDP per capita growth rate and the highest inflation of any Latin American country except Haiti. It has also seen a fivefold increase in assassinations to arguably the highest murder rate in the world. In spite of having the largest oil reserves in the planet, he managed to reduce Venezuela's share of OPEC oil output from 4.8% to around 3%. He also managed to stimulate the largest out-migration of Venezuelans in memory.

Didn't the UK squander it's oil resources?

This probably sums discussion so far;

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cranberry - Member
From Amnesty International's 2012 report on Venuzuela:

"Human rights defenders were threatened and politically motivated charges continued to be used against government critics. Accountability mechanisms to ensure justice or to act as an effective deterrent against police abuses remained weak. There were serious episodes of violence in the grossly overcrowded prison system leading to a number of deaths. "

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2012

Shame on the usual mix of useful idiots and fellow travellers on here who have lauded Chavez.

From the same organisation's report on the USA:

Forty-three men were executed during the year, and concerns about cruel prison conditions continued. Scores of detainees remained in indefinite military detention at Guantánamo. The administration announced its intention to pursue the death penalty against six of these detainees in trials by military commission. Some 3,000 people were held in the US detention facility on the Bagram air base in Afghanistan by the end of the year. Use of lethal force in the counter-terrorism context raised serious concerns, as did continuing reports of the use of excessive force in the domestic law enforcement context.

Thousands of prisoners in California went on hunger strike in July and October to protest about cruel conditions of isolation in the state’s Security Housing Units (SHUs). In the SHU at Pelican Bay State Prison more than 1,000 prisoners were confined to windowless cells for 22.5 hours a day, in conditions a court stated in 1995 “may press the outer bounds of what most humans can psychologically tolerate”. At the time of the hunger strike, more than 500 prisoners in Pelican Bay had spent at least 10 years in these conditions, and 78 had spent 20 years or more in the SHU. A number of reforms, including modifying procedures for assigning alleged gang members to indefinite SHU confinement, were under review at the end of the year. Amnesty International joined others in condemning disciplinary action taken against hunger strikers and urging an end to inhumane conditions. Thousands of prisoners remained in isolation in similar conditions in other states, including Arizona and Texas.

It's South America. It's not about White Hats and Black Hats. I don't think anyone for a moment is suggesting that Chazez is any sort of angel, and yes there is little doubt that he was culpable of mismanagement of the economy and a number of repressive measures but the fact is that he did also do a lot of good for the poor of his country.... hence his election success. The people who swallow whole the mainly US-led propaganda about Chavez are just as naive and misguided as the people who build him up as some sort of cross between Che Guevara and Jesus Christ. As supposedly "tin pot dictators" go, he was far from the worst.

Personally I'd me more concerned about what fills the vacuum now he's gone.

Bugger - looks like someone is in debt, then.

Defining success in helping the poor in terms of GDP growth percentages and share of OPEC oil output - interesting...

some sort of cross between Che Guevara and Jesus Christ

Che the murderer crossed with Jesus Christ, a heady mix.

<sigh>

Livingstone may well be an odious, corrupt little scrote, but in no way should anyone wish a painful death on him. Pathetic.

As is this thread, to be honest. So, with that, bye.

enfht - Member

To be clear, Ernie is a self confessed Marxist.

Shocking.

Well RIP

Interesting character and case study for an ideology in practice and to be able to compare his legacy with that of other left wing leaders such as Lula.

CFH +1 really no need.

Interesting character and case study for an ideology in practice and to be able to compare his legacy with that of other left wing leaders such as Lula.

Lula was more centre left wasn't he? An interesting comparison would be Evo Morales in Bolivia - many of his policies are similar to Chavez.

Well direct comparison are difficult obviously and Lula went from populist to more centre left agreed. I was meaning on who did more for their country, it's prospects, it's people etc. Whether respect for institutions is important?

Then there was his hero Bolivar, who by some accounts, carried a copy of [i]The Wealth of Nations[/i] with him!!!

Well, I presume Bolivar was a hero to many not because of his political views but because he spent his life kicking out the Spanish - it ties in very neatly with Chavez's anti-US rhetoric, when one thinks of direct and indirect imperialism. The other point about Adam Smith is that he was a moderate - see his writings on progressive taxation for example. So maybe not quite the paradox it appears to be.

Morales is interesting - freely elected, popular, re-nationalised key industry, opposed US interference. Sound familiar?

Ransos, I know nothing about Morales I'm afraid, so can't comment. But from a purely selfish perspective, the best result of any populiist measures in Vz was/is the incredible Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra. I saw them live last year and a much better role model that X-factor or BGT!!!!

(p.s. AS is indeed often misunderstood but progressive taxation is hardly a minority or even mildly extreme view!) I doubt they will find the [i]Road To Serfdom [/i] among Chavez's prized possessions!! 😉

Defining success in helping the poor in terms of GDP growth percentages and share of OPEC oil output - interesting...

(As an aside, it was almost impossible to write that without a string of cliches and mixed metaphors).

To be clear, Ernie is a self confessed Marxist.

This appears to be said as a form of insult. Shows just how far right we've been dragged in this country, politically.

Interesting that some commentators on here are bent on painting Chavez as 'evil'. How do you stand on people like this?

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Livingstone may well be an odious, corrupt little scrote, but in no way should anyone wish a painful death on him. Pathetic.

I amusingly got a short ban on here for saying that 'at least Prince Phillip won't be around for too much longer [to make stupid often offensive comments]. In my opinion, nowhere near as offensive as the comments made here. I wonder if such moderation will be applied equally in this case?

(Not sure as to why Livingstone is really 'corrupt' though, as to my knowledge he's never been charged with anything fraudulent, merely had to endure various slanderous allegations by the right-wing press )

Interesting that some commentators on here are bent on painting Chavez as 'evil'. How do you stand on people like this?

Augusto has let himself down a bit there too

You leave the Queen out of this while she is poorly. Or should that be on the "throne" for the last few days.

You leave the Queen out of this while she is poorly. Or should that be on the "throne" for the last few days.

I like Aljazeera. That probably makes me an enemy of the US

Well... more just an enemy of Fox News really

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Hhmmm.

So, what we've got here is a tiff between lovers and haters.

Reassuring to see that some things here, in the nut house, never change.
😉

Carry on !.

😆

Binners.

Do you think Mr Hill shaved his legs for that picture ?.

If so, would that make him a closet [i]Rouleur[/i] ?.

I'll take the two on the left. Well the far-left was lush. Shes probably a Grannie now though so more your type binners

bwaarp - Member

Again, the Venezualen people would have been lifted out of poverty by a more moderate chacter.

Possibly. But could a more moderate character have remained in control while doing it, without caving to foreign pressure? Seems less likely.

I'd turn it around a bit- what would have been Chavez's legacy without the intervention of the last superpower?

[i]I'll take the two on the left.[/i]

Are you sure ?, the one on the very far left is wearing shoes that do not match her bikini.

*warning signs*

😯

Oh, hang on !, I know !......

EDIT:
Hang on, none of them are wearing shoe that match their bikinis....

What's this "last superpower" stuff?

[i]What's this "last superpower" stuff?[/i]

The oil is running out. Word is, when it does, they are going to burn cyclists in order to [i]keep the lights on[/i].

HTH.

Livingstone may well be an odious, corrupt little scrote, but in no way should anyone wish a painful death on him. Pathetic.

I amusingly got a short ban on here for saying that 'at least Prince Phillip won't be around for too much longer [to make stupid often offensive comments]. In my opinion, nowhere near as offensive as the comments made here. I wonder if such moderation will be applied equally in this case?

The trouble is...nobody actually posted that. What a drag hey?

1) Somebody pondered what Ken's reaction would be
2) As a throwaway line I posted that all being well he'd be next
3) Proteus threw a tizzy and had a little cry about how mean I was
4) I reposted a post from a thread he started last year in which
he was going on about how the death of a Thatcher lookalike provided an opportunity to practice dancng on her grave. Hypocrisy, you see?
5) He hasn't reposted since.

So, just to clarify...nobody posted that.

You definitely win the internet today. Well played.

[i]You definitely win the internet today. Well played.[/i]

You lot should be more concerned about the last super-power being ladies wearing bikinis with matching shoes.
😯

It's the shoes I'm interested in...

[i]It's the shoes I'm interested in...[/i]

Leave it !.
😉

The trouble is...nobody actually posted that. What a drag hey?

Ok. I think the inference was that you'd wish Livingstone die from cancer. I apologise if that's not the case.

All being well, he'll be next.

Fact remains, that you're able to say something I'm not, ie 'wish death on someone'.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/prince-philip-strikes-again/page/4#post-4712090

Strange inconsistent and somewhat hypocritical moderation, in my opinion. I have pointed out to the moderators that worse has been said yet gone unsanctioned, but received no reply. Hence mentioning it on here. If any moderators have issue with this post then do what you will, but a reply to my emails would be couteous.

No what's strange is you thinking that the UK used to see Marxism as mainstream 😆

Keep it up though, it's a good insight into the The Loony Left™

The guy who did my bathroom must've really loved Hugo Chavez, so much so he engraved his initials on the bath and sink taps.

igmc

Strange inconsistent and somewhat hypocritical moderation, in my opinion. I have pointed out to the moderators that worse has been said yet gone unsanctioned, but received no reply. Hence mentioning it on here. If any moderators have issue with this post then do what you will, but a reply to my emails would be couteous.

Teh Modz will only act on a post/thread that is reported. If it offends you that much, please feel free to do so. Otherwise, please accept a full refund, etc.

mt - Member

What's this "last superpower" stuff?

Really not sure how to answer that 😕 It seems too simple to just say the USA.