[Closed] Green Laning (motor bikes)

I reckon you should go on centre day out first to get a feel for it. Ideal way to get a taster without splashing out on a bike etc. There are a few than run a days hire/guiding/training in Wales.

Sorry Amos, I do not like the way motorbikes damage the green lanes and the experience I have on them. Keep motors on tarmac,

Chris

These guys are the ones to contact. Legal trail riding by guys like this causes few problems.
http://www.trf.org.uk/

Its not high revving unsilenced 2 stoke wannabee motocrossers - they are illegal riders - its low revving silenced and road legal bikes doing motorised pony trekking.

http://www.yamaha-offroad-experience.co.uk/

http://www.wildtracksltd.co.uk/

What ChrisE said. I can see why it would be fun, but they cause far too much damage for my liking

Sorry Amos, I do not like the way motorbikes damage the green lanes and the experience I have on them. Keep motors on tarmac,

That's like a rambler saying "I don't like the way mountain bikers tear around the bridleways, stick to the roads". There is enough room for everyone. As long it's done legally and safely of course.

Was going to link to TRF, but TJ beat me to it. Always check with the local rights of way officer as well before heading off down a BOAT etc. dotted across an OS map, just to check it is actually legal to ride on.

That's like a rambler saying "I don't like the way mountain bikers tear around the bridleways, stick to the roads".

Except that studies have shown that bikes and walkers have around the same impact level. Show me a motorbike that has that impact level...

Sorry, motorized off road has no place in most of the countryside. Ridgeway between M40 and Watlington (for instance) used to be a boggy swamp for most of the year, now that 4x4 nad bikes are banned, it's been restored.

You'll find that 'green-lanes' are becoming fewer..., and it'll be mtb-ers who suffer next from the red-socks.

Punch them in the face.

Who has the right to say what kind of vehicular access should be be allowed where?
Some muppets on mountain bikes, skidding down steep descents cause untold damage. If motorised vehicles are used properly and with a bit of common sense, (i.e. not using byways which are obviously over used/waterlogged etc) I don't see why all people can't get on together.
To say motorised vehicles should not be allowed and mountain bikes should, is a biased view.

The problem is guys that teh law abiding reasonable folk get tarred with the same brush as the ones who tear up the lanes.

Motorbikes ridden in the way the TRF do cause little damage. Its the wannabe motocrossers and the numpties in 4wds for who the idea of good fun is getting stuck in bogs and winching out that cause the damage.

The TRF Code of Conduct

Use only vehicular rights of way.

Trail riding is only lawful on public roads. If in doubt, check with the Highway
Authority or the TRF. Motorcycles and riders must be road-legal. Green lanes
are subject to the same laws as surfaced roads.

Keep to the defined way across farmland.

Wheels can damage crops and grass. Wandering from the road onto farmland
or moorland is trespassing.

Give way to walkers, horses and cyclists.

As a courtesy, On narrow lanes, stop and switch off engines.

Fasten gates to safeguard stock.

Except those tied open for farming purposes. An open gate invites animals to
stray, endangering themselves, and crops or traffic.

Travel at a safe speed.

Ride at a reasonable speed, taking regard of conditions and visibility. This
should not exceed the voluntary maximum of 25mph.

Ride quietly.

Machines must be effectively silenced. Use the throttle with discretion, as
noise does offend. Green lanes are subject to the same laws as surfaced
roads.

Honour the country code.

Respect the countryside and those who live, work and play in it. Green lanes
can be valuable habitats, so take special care in spring and early summer.

Acknowledge the presence of other green lane users
With a friendly wave or other suitable gesture

ldentify yourself.

Carry your membership card with you when trail riding, so that you may
identify yourself as a current member of the TRF - and display a current
membership sticker.

< Prev

I wouldn't bother with green laning personally, I'd get a propper enduro bike and have a go a few hare and hound races or some time card enduro's. Reason being that enduro courses are designed especially for the purpose and you can go as fast as you like, bit like the difference between driving on the road and a trackday. It's quite hard to practice enduro as there aren't many facilities about hence why suggesting racing. If you happen to be in the south then [url= http://www.rogershill.co.uk/raceway/ ]rogershill raceway[/url] does enduro evening sessions alongside their normal MX practice. Also [url= http://racersedgemx.co.uk/ ]racersedge[/url] a motocross coach in the south is setting up a suzuki tryout day, there are other such schemes as this for you to try enduro or mx to see if you like it another prominant one is [url= http://www.wheeldontwo.co.uk/tours/offroad.htm ]wheeldontwo[/url] in Devon. There are similar venues and try out days (Yamaha used to run one in north Wales) all over the country but as I live down south these are the only ones I know off the top of my head. Finally have a look on [url= http://mxtrax.co.uk/ ]mxtrax[/url] on the trail and enduro part of the forum for some more info. Might also be worth popping into smiths and getting a Trail Bike Monthly (TBM) magazine which is aimed at green laners and enduro riders.

Iain

Done a fair bit of green laning in the lakes and dales. Joined the trf and tried to do it responsably. More and more lanes were closed to us so drz is gathering dust in garage. Haven't been for quite a while now. As said above some ruin it for all. Some mates just carried on. If a tro notice was missing at the start of a lane I don't think its enforceable. I loved it but the shit we got off some ramblers was unbelievable. Something like 3% of the rights of way network was available to motorized traffic but to some thats too much. People are selfish and have no tolerance of others. Like waterskiing on windermere. Mountain bikers will be next. Ramblers are numerous and politically active and they only seem to notice people tearing around doing damage.

My long term aim I think is to get into enduro events, my uncle was quite handy and I was hoping I may have half his talent.
I am quite shocked by some of the opinion from you guys that all motorbikes/motorbike riders just go out and nail it and damage the country side surely that's a the sort of prejustice we as mountain bikers have spent years fighting as a result of whinging red socks? I know they're are some c0cks out there that do ruin it for everyone but surely, as mentioned before, people shouldn't be tarred with the same brush?
My intent was to just get from place to place off road instead of the scaring the wits out of my Mrs by riding on road! Then when confident start doing some events.

There are two different types of green-laners.

There are two different types of mountain bikers.

One of those is anti-social, uses cheeky (yes motorbikers and mountain bikers ride cheeky)- its not the trail damage... The whole world is evolving through erosion and how did trails come about ffs.

How many green-laners do you come across bogged-down and spinning wide-open their throttle on bridleways churning up the earth? Is the boogieman out there? 😉

..its the risk of a walker being hit by someone riding a mountain bike inconsiderately that bothers me. Ironically I rode past the spot today off mytholroyd/Hebden station where a walker was killed by a mountain biker in a race.

Live and let live. I've come across polite and considerate mx'ers - I've experienced far more inconsiderate and rude mountain bikers in my time.

why not give MX'ing a try? You'll find the majority are careful riders because you really don't want to be opening up your throttle and braking an ankle or the bike landing on you. You never know you might like it.

Peace.

Ironically I rode past the spot today off mytholroyd/Hebden station where a walker was killed by a mountain biker in a race.

link? not heard about that.

Ignore the "holier than thou" attitude of a few on here. Most of the lanes that get ridden on are little or unused. The TRF do a great job of keeping rights of way open which otherwise would become overgrown and lost. Best way is get in touch with your local TRF group. Great bunch of blokes (and ladies) and will accommodate all levels of riders.
[img] [/img]

+1 hora

Live and let live

[quoteSorry Amos, I do not like the way motorbikes damage the green lanes and the experience I have on them. Keep motors on tarmac,

Chris

WTF, are you a headmaster wannabe?

Done responsibly green laning is great fun

Sorry, motorized off road has no place in most of the countryside. Ridgeway between M40 and Watlington (for instance) used to be a boggy swamp for most of the year, now that 4x4 nad bikes are banned, it's been restored.

Restored for whom ? You or the people who are no longer permitted to enjoy the countryside ?

God there's a load of miserable NIMBYs on here. 🙄

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap!!!

I live in Dorset and only a tiny percentage of the ROW round here are motorised. That's fine, it's the same as MTBing, no one wants to ride really boggy trails so you stay clear of the ones that aren't sustainable in the wet. Think of Thetford. Nearly all those mtb trails were originaly created by trail bikes. One of the best "cheeky" mtb trails near me is a trail bike hare and hounds course. It's about time that those people who use the country side for fun band together and stop the red sock brigade from banning us all.

Everybody who's not on motorbike, or in a landrover. Really they were more or less un-useable for every one else from about Nov to April. TBH it's not like it was that exciting, I mean it's more or less an off-road motorway.

TBH all this "it'll be MTB'rs next" is just so much scaremongering, even the BHS (Bristih horse Society) has realised that what's good for MTBr's is good for horse-riders.

TBH all this "it'll be MTB'rs next" is just so much scaremongering

That's what trail riders said before the NERC bill...

Riiiight, I'll tell you what, you show me any evidence AT ALL that there's any thing written anywhere by anyone that suggests that one of the largest growing outdoor recreational sports is going to be effected IN ANY WAY by the fact that motorized off road activities are being restricted (mostly because, it has to be said, some MX'rs are tits)

OK?

nickc- try not to think only of your own selfish position.

[i]nickc- try not to think only of your own selfish position.[/i]

Right, 'cos that **** I saw the other morning making a giant rooster and dust cloud on a effing bridleway wasn't be at all selfish....

EDit: and his two mates....

I'm out on this, I'm not at all reasonable about it, and I don't want to get into a slanging match, sorry if I've offended.

There is absolutely no excuse for deliberately wrecking a trail - regardless of how you access the countryside you should show it respect.

In the bikers credit though, he's probably not trying to get other people banned from everyone's trails.

you show me any evidence AT ALL that there's any thing written anywhere by anyone that suggests that one of the largest growing outdoor recreational sports is going to be effected

That comment pretty much sums it up......It will most probably be a victim of its own popularity.

I used to green lane in the early 90's and it was fine hardly anyone on bikes even ramblers used to stop for a chat ......then it became popular with all the speed camera's going up all the road bikers found offroad bikes more fun and it became popular, they were everywhere...........look what happened......!!!!!

What happened? What happened !!!

nickc - you are confusing illegal riders who should feel the full force of the law and legal ones.

Like saying all MTBers ride footpaths and scare ramblers.

LEGAL green laners cause few issues.

I also know paths badly damaged by MTBers and have seen a couple riding like utter cocks. should all mtbs be banned?

Anywaaay - try these (seems good value as well) 🙂

http://www.yamaha-offroad-experience.co.uk/ <

Amos. DEFRA and the nerc bill pushed by the might of the ramblers association

there happens to be quite a lot who are politicians

or am I just being cynical 😕

yup, since the po po chased all the dirtbikes off from my area last year a good 50%+ of the trails have overgrown and gone :O(
IMO they kept a LOT of the tracks and trails clear and usable for All.

Ban the ramblers, I can't stand the sanctimonious noise they make whilst moping through the countryside!

Ive dabbled with off road motorbikes for years and have slowly been realising that for the price of a reasonable machine you can get 2 or 3 holidays abroad where there isnt the same pressure on trails as in the UK. There are plenty of places in spain for example that will kit you out with everything and away you go. A few years back I did a 6 week offroad fest in australia, every route is offroad! Although to be perfectly honest it was more about surviving the trip than the actual riding. I have never been so scared after I broke down in the desert, 200km from the nearest one horse town. On my own.

ive done a solo motorbike ride in Oz too ... scary but Very rewarding :O)

Lawmanmx that is so true. Where did you go? I started near Brisbane, worked my way up to Cape York, went out to Thursday Island then took a barge back from cape york to cairns, then went out to the gulf before working my way back to Brisbane. After cape york my nerves were seriously shaky, I figured the only way to deal with the fear was to get the trip over as quickly as possible. Which meant going faster and faster! 50mph off road was enough to scare the bejeezus out of of me, how these dakar boys sleep at night i will never know.

That was in 2003 and I still think about it every day

i started from brisbane rode north as far as Cairns staying in different towns on the way and riding the local areas then i went back to brizzy for a while then went south via coastal route briefly going inland to a farmstead about 20 clicks out from tamworth (had a few days out in the middle of Nowhere) then rode out to Coffs harbour down to sydney for a week or so then onwards to Melbourne.
a few of the "smaller" towns i stayed in were quite strange to say the least Cann river being the most weird i would say.
seen some sights on that trip i can tell yer, Lol

Quality, I always wanted to head south too but ran out of time. Some of those backcountry towns were awesome, for me they were some of the best parts of the trip. And I have never drunk a colder beer. Did you hire or buy a bike? I was gonna buy but ended up hiring a fully kitted out enduro bike from a guy just south of brisbane. When I finally got to Mt Isa the guy in the motorbike shop recognised it and new the guy I rented off. Turns out he was totally nuts and into uber long solo desert crossings when he lived in Isa. When I took the bike back i looked at his eyes and thought, yeah, you are mad. Addictive though, riding in the desert

grim168 - Member

Something like 3% of the rights of way network was available to motorized traffic but to some thats too much.

1.85% of rights of way are BOATs. But even then, alot of those byways are either TRO'd or obstructed in some way. So the actual percentage is even smaller.

i bought an almost new Honda XR600 the air cooled 1997 model, what did you ride then?
did you do the 40k trail loop round kenilworth forest up near the sunshine coast? i used to go up there and lap it like a MX track, Loved it!!! (prolly horrify some of these lot on here) Lmao

I had a TTR600, pretty good once you'd worked out how to start it. I had an embarrassing experience near Morton Island when an ozzie trucker had to pick the bike off me on a petrol station forecourt (The kick start had gone up my trouser leg on the kick back...oh bollocks...crash) Where are you going mate he said...the outback...you're gonna die.

Never did the loop but there where loads of tracks all over. I remember Tamworth pretty well, Blacks Bay, endless cane fields. Christ they scared me, all those snakes in the brush.

[i]Most of the lanes that get ridden on are little or unused. The TRF do a great job of keeping rights of way open which otherwise would become overgrown and lost.[/i]

I think this must apply to another part of the country to where I live, or maybe just a different country entirely 🙂

oooohhh them TTR600's are a big heavy lump are'nt they 😯 i always found the XR's to be much more rider friendly, snakes pigs roo's spiders goanas and cattle, i nearly ended up on the inside of a big brown cow on one of the days, funny now but nearly pissed me strides at the time, Lol

Its pretty well sprung, ohlins allround but fairly archaic otherwise. No battery though so simple to fix...luckily. Roos filled my pants a few times when they ran longside then shot across the front.

I ended up to my waist in a water hole trying to get my water bag back. I thought it was croc free but the locals told me later it was the one down the road. Jesus. When I was at cape york there was a yacht on the wharf. the guy took his two dogs for a run along the beach each evening. One day he came back with one and he wouldnt go in after the stick anymore.

yup ... i was in tully gorge near the river one evening and i read a sign sayin beware of crocs and cassowarys, and i was only watching for snakes n spiders :O/
i got stuck in a sandwash on one ride and it took me Ages to get the bike out, i was sweattin me nads off and papping me'self so much i got bad dehydration, felt proper bad for a good few hours (got outta there first tho) Lol

Something like 3% of the rights of way network was available to motorized traffic but to some thats too much.

If that percentage is correct? I am shocked.

From the RA:

1. The (RA) acknowledge that under current legislation byways open to all traffic (BOATs) are available, as of right, to all classes of user, including those in mechanically propelled vehicles. We are also very aware that there are many other rights of way, either not recorded at all, or presently recorded as footpaths, bridleways or Roads Used as Public Paths (RUPPs) or, in due course, restricted byways which may also carry full vehicular rights. The RA believes that use of such unsurfaced ways by mechanically propelled vehicles is not appropriate in the 21st century. The primary reasons for our view are as follows:

(i) Unsurfaced routes cannot sustain use by mechanically propelled vehicles. Such usage destroys the surface and creates deep ruts and areas of mud which render routes either unusable or dangerous or unpleasant for use by other classes of user. (ii) The main reasons for visiting the countryside are to experience the peace and quiet it offers, but this experience is destroyed by the incursions of mechanically propelled vehicles into the rights of way network.

(iii) The activities of mechanically propelled vehicles can be intimidating and present physical dangers to other classes of user.

(iv) The presence and activities of mechanically propelled vehicles, and the efforts by off-road activists to open up routes for motor vehicles, disturb wildlife and destroys habitats.

For the "ban the motor bikes, they're not coming for me"... notice it says "Mechanically propelled", not motorised.

[i] notice it says "Mechanically propelled", not motorised.[/i]

Notice it says "Mechanically propelled" because that's the wording used in the relevant laws.
Also note that within the legislation a bicycle isn't considered "Mechanically propelled"

>notice it says "Mechanically propelled", not motorised.

MTB's are not mechanically propelled so not sure why you're making the above distinction ?

http://www.trailbikemag.com/forum/

allthepies - Member
>notice it says "Mechanically propelled", not motorised.

MTB's are not mechanically propelled so not sure why you're making the above distinction ?

My point is that the ROW network is being slowly shut down to other users by the RA. To think that mtbing is "safe" is obviously flawed, as they have already shifted the definition of who can use a green lane from motorised to mechanically propelled. I honestly believe that if the RA are successfull in shuting down the ROW to motor vehicles, mtb's will be next.

As I pointed out they haven't shifted any definition, the term "Mechanically Propelled" is not something they've dreamt up, it's the term used in all the legislation.
I honestly believe you're completely wrong, I see no evidence of them wishing to ban bicycles, what I do see is trail riders trying desperately to garner some wider support. Unfortunately, and despite the efforts of many good riders, there are alas far too many incosiderate ****ers on trailbikes for this to work now imo. And mtber's aligning with them will do us no good, as we've a got enough idiots on bicycles already 🙂

I feel that Tree is on the money.

Anecdotal, i know, but my dad (to my eternal shame) is a member of the Ramblers and he, along with all the people he walks with, are vehemenantly opposed to mountain bikes having any open countrside access.

Their arguement is that we now have had significant public monies spent on providing places to ride our bikes at the trail centres. They do say that a few more trail centres should be provided, especially in England, before it would be fair to ban us.

They even try to sound reasonable when i have discussed it with them - saying that they would agree to give up their right to roam on bike specific trails - thats good of them, isn't it.

Their arguement is that we now have had significant public monies spent on providing places to ride our bikes at the trail centres.

Well this thread has gone rather tangental! Thanks brainflex for actually answering my original post! 🙂

Not saying they are right, but this is their position, and I suspect that they (the RA) have a significantly better lobbying ability than MTBers.

No, I know, I'm just kidding around.

As I pointed out they haven't shifted any definition, the term "Mechanically Propelled" is not something they've dreamt up, it's the term used in all the legislation.

Incorrect. It was dreamt up in 2005 up to which point it was Motor vehicles.

Vader & Lawmanmx - those are my old stomping grounds - all over north Qld. You're making me homesick 🙂

its a great place to ride and no mistake :O)

yes, 3% is about right, down from 5% with recentish law changes and upgrades.

Other % are
rambling 100%+ (the plus is right to roam, open access, forthcoming coastal path etc)
horses/pushbike - 21%

Rightly or wrongly (*wrongly as far as I'm concerned as I've just got bargain Beta Alp) but it's a dying hobby, for a variety of reasons. In a nutshell if you put a lot of rats in a wide open space they're happy, if you put the same number of rats in a much more enclosed space they all start fighting. The UK ain't getting any bigger, however it is getting more populated .......

Mechanically Propelled Vehicles was added into the act to make it synchronous with the Road Traffic Act. Early versions of the Act used the term Motor Vehicles but it is felt that ‘Motor’ might become outdated when vehicles are propelled by things other than engines.

You’ll have to take my word for it. I jacked in work and spent June 2005 to March 2006 working on part 6 of the (NERC) bill, with other people, to try and hone the drafting amongst other things. Much of the work was done by a group called GLPG that was a group specifically set up to work on the bill. It included the Ramblers but also the CTC and the CLA as well as many groups such as the YDGLA and Friends of the Ridgeway.

There is no agenda with government to curtail the rights of cyclists in fact if you read the NERC Act you will see that cyclists have been given ‘new’ rights that they have never had, specifically to be able to claim public rights of way by virtue of previous use.

C

3% sorry thats shameful.

I feel green laners should have more access. Sure the illegal mx-riders give the majority a bad name but if only 3% is legally accessible what do you expect if you dont live near any area with such access (or enough)?

One may note that I was upset after I visit to Lee Quarry with mx'ers riding up the trails- thats because it was dangerous.

[i]I feel green laners should have more access.[/i]
They have, it's called roads.

Live and let live. I can't understand yomping over hills for fun however I wouldn't dream of restricting anyones access to it. Everyone has a right to the UK . Everyone.

Responsible access.

yup, its Everyone's world and No One owns it!!! .... anyone who pisses on anyone elses parade should be stoned ;O) IMO of course, Lol

Seriously if they are ridden on the 3% of permissive lanes cant the rest of you just be happy?

Now the YDNP have had to relax their restrictions I saw quite a few on Gorbeck Road (above Settle) today.

Having said that, I believe there is a proposed TRO mid section to create a non-through route for motor vehicles.

IanMunro - Member
I feel green laners should have more access.
They have, it's called roads

By that reasoning, cyclists have road access, why should they be allowed off-road? Why would cyclists enjoy riding off road?

[i]Seriously if they are ridden on the 3% of permissive lanes cant the rest of you just be happy?[/i]

I live opposite the entrance to a BOAT. If they didn't do wheelspins on the grass outside, fitted silencers that vaguely worked instead of congregating on mass revving them, and maybe occasionally showed a bit of courtesy to other people on the trail, I'd be sympathetic to their plight, but they don't so I'm not 🙂

hora - Member
3% sorry thats shameful.

I feel green laners should have more access. Sure the illegal mx-riders give the majority a bad name but if only 3% is legally accessible what do you expect if you dont live near any area with such access (or enough)?

One may note that I was upset after I visit to Lee Quarry with mx'ers riding up the trails- thats because it was dangerous.

I would expect them to ride their local motocross track, however, people illegally riding off road are rarely anyhing to do with motocross they just happen to ride off road and unfortunatly we all get tarred with the same brush. You won't catch people who attend motocross races riding illegally as if they have forked out thousands of pounds for a bike, kit, servacing etc (and in an increasing number of cases daddy has forked out hundreds of thousands on a motorhome!) they will spend their spare time paying to ride at decent practice track as oppose to a bridelway. Sadly your local chav with a pitbike might decide going down the local footpath is a good idea. That said as someone who regularly races MX and enduro I personally can't understand the appeal of green laning it's dull as ditchwater when compaired and not the best way to take in the scenic country side.

Iain

It's less than 3%, as I stated above, It's about 1.85% of ROW are byways open to all traffic or similar. But alot of that small percentage is obstructed (naturally or ilegally by land owners etc.) and alot of BOATs now have TRO's on them preventing anything with an engine going near it. Surely all the haters can survive with the other 98.15% of ROW 🙄

I personally can't understand the appeal of green laning

I can't understand MXing or Enduro- its scary! 🙂 Green-laning is probably liked by those who enjoy the more sedate-experience pootle of off-roading.

After all, you don't see the majority of mountain bikers hipping off doubles, hitting gnarly downhills or getting any sort of speed or air? Its about just getting out there 🙂

Is it the noise that people don't like? Ok, I can understand this. Its however short-lived as the rider is soon past you and as long as they limit their speed they aren't upsetting anyone.

Surely all the haters can survive with the other 98.15% of ROW

It isn't quite as simple as that though is it? I used to commute along a byway from my old house into work. Motorised use meant that eventually, large stretches were under 2ft of water for 5 months of the year. End result - byway rendered impassable for most users. In instances like this, do you think it sensible for motorised use to continue?

Arguing about the distinction of "green-laning" and enduro/MX is pointless because, when it's out in the countryside, no-one knows or cares, to the average rambler it's "bloody noisy motorbikes, they should be banned".

There was a group of about 12 I saw today out in the Peaks. No idea what type of bike nor did I care. As I passed through the same group of walkers that they'd just blatted through I don't think they cared about the type of bike either - they just didn't want them there at all.

Pennine - the good news is that Gorbeck will have it's TRO returned next week (in time for the Bank Hol). I would guess that there were extra 4x4s up there today as a 'last gasp'. I've just heard confirmation that Deadmans Hill TRO will start tomorrow (from Scar House Dam to Coverdale) for 18 months min and there were apparently hundreds of trail/enduro bikes up there today.

C

hora - Member

I personally can't understand the appeal of green laning

I can't understand MXing or Enduro- its scary! Green-laning is probably liked by those who enjoy the more sedate-experience pootle of off-roading.

Ha! Hadn't thought of that. Noise is a big issue with motocross tracks, we recently lost a brilliant facillity in winchester after perminant planning permission was applied for in which the facillity would be used less times a year than it had been allowed on the previous years temporary permission. It all boiled down to locals complaining about the noise, however, some people complained about it on days the track was closed! It seams the majority has a bad image of motorbikes in general and want to get rid of the pastime alltogether despite it not affecting them what ever you do to combat what they complain about they find something else.

Iain