[Closed] Flooding

For those that don't live locally the flooding up here is not like flooding on the Somerset levels or other fliod plains. The rivers around here are not silty meandering things but rocky bottomed and often walled up, in Rawtenstall the Irwell is usual 15ft below it's side, on Saturday it was within a foot or so of the top.

The flooding occurs as the water rushes through, people on the side of hills get flooded as water rushes in the backdoor and out the front. The flood defences are designed to sliw the flow, Tod park can be deliberately flooded, Stacksteads has a huge holding tank etc. My neighbour who used to live in Tod said the flooding wasn't as bad there as previously althoigh still bad. There rains were pretty bad, I've never known Padiham flood or Whalley.

Don't know what the answer is but I can't see what can be done for places like Hebden where many buildings are at the same level as the canal and river.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-weather-cause-flooding-government-7078739
Interesting article, wonder what the collective make of this?

Should someone set up a thread identifying businesses in the areas affected that could be supported through online means (once they are operational again) ?

He has a valid point

You also to add in windfarms on the high moors where the access infrastructure causes massive loss in peat and the purpose made drainage accelerates the transit of water off the moors

Flood plains flood, man made interventions reduce the incidence but anyone looking at the geography must realise that the landscape was formed with massive inundations periodically

Interesting article, wonder what the collective make of this?

It's a shockingly poorly written article. Dredging is a lot more complex than they seem to think. And harking back to what people used to do is absurd given that most of our problems now are caused by what people did a hundred-odd years ago.

There was a big debate about dredging last time this happened iirc.

Canal at Tod is one of the big problems at the moment:

[img] [/img]

When more rain arrives - that is going straight into the Calder through those allotments on the RHS.

You also to add in windfarms on the high moors where the access infrastructure causes massive loss in peat and the purpose made drainage accelerates the transit of water off the moors

If windfarms came in the top 100 contributors to flooding I would be [s]suprised[/s]amazed. (Unless you are Trump in which case I claim my 5 tacky golden tanning salon tokens).

Whoa.
Not managed to get out yet - take it all the canalside housing further up toward Tod and down toward Hebden has gone?

You can't really blame the Tories. Yet.

It's a combination of things:

Climate change - predications suggest that stormy weather is becoming more and mor common. We don't get drizzle any more, just vast quantities of water all in a short space of time. Too fast for thr drains to deal with

Idiotic planning permission - building on flood plans is dumb. The developers build a big drain to get the water off their development. Which means the next place downstream has even more water to deal with. There must be a reason for this - it can't just be the developers making money. Plus why aren't councils insisting old deralict properties are knocked down and redeveloped first?

No planning permission for removal of lawns, trees, adding brickweave driveways all over the place. Grass holds a ridiculous amount of water. brickweave and tarmac drain super fast - but then the next place downstream has even more water to deal with.

Spending cuts - EA hasn't got enough money to build and maintain storm drains. Farmers don't care about ditches. The unsustainable farming practices in the UK, plus supermarkets remove any profit the farmer makes. They don't have the money/time to worry about someone elses land flooding.

I really feel sorry for people who cannot sell their house because of the flooding and who cannot afford to insure them.

Both Labour and the Tories have been in power while this is allowed to go on. What annoys me is the current politicians constantly using the word Unprecedented. All the time. It's not unprecedented. It's the new norm!
Until they accept this then it's only going to get worse.

Both Labour and the Tories have been in power while this is allowed to go on. What annoys me is the current politicians constantly using the word Unprecedented. All the time. It's not unprecedented. It's the new norm!

It sort of is unprecedented as some of the river levels have broken the previous highs by more than a couple of metres!

Rusty Spanner - Member
Whoa.
Not managed to get out yet - take it all the canalside housing further up toward Tod and down toward Hebden has gone?

From what I'm aware that is the only breach at the moment.

Good.
Thanks for the updates.

I see you, George Osborne.
I see your smarmy face, like a gilded ham or the distilled essence of a hundred estate agents congealed into flesh. I see the single tear rolling down your face at Thatcher's funeral, the only one you've ever shed. I see the cleft in your nose, which presumably is the slot the city bankers swipe their cards through every time they pop in to make a withdrawal from the treasury. I see you wince every time you try to sit down in your expensive leather chair, the long handle of the silver spoon constantly jabbing you in the walls of your colon. It's painful, isn't it, George Osborne? But you wouldn't change it for the world, and you can afford plenty of numbing agents that come in white powders after all.
I see the tinted glass of your London penthouse, George Osborne, the people running around below you like ants. You're a king up here, aren't you? You're like Marie Antoinette, except you're even hoarding the cake and everyone else can eat shit. You're a guffawing toff, George Osborne, a honking parasite, a greasy snake-oil salesman poured into a suit and picking the county apart at the seams. Cuts upon cuts upon cuts, George Osborne, packaged up in lies and platitudes and sold by your friends in the media to the proletariat you despise.
Cuts! Lovely, lovely cuts. It's easy to cut stuff from a London penthouse, isn't it, George Osborne? You're safe up here, after all.
I see the clouds darkening, George Osborne, and I hear the rain drumming on the streets. I see the waters rising, sluicing off the fields, filling the rivers that haven't been dredged in months. Cuts! Lovely cuts. I see the water pouring over the flood defences, into homes and shops, the feeble token investment you've made in barriers and walls doing nothing to avert disaster. Cuts!
I hear the phone ringing as the storm rages outside, George Osborne. I hear you giggle, ducking down in your seat, sitting up again and inhaling deeply, your pupils blown and your nose dusted in powder. Cuts! **** 'em, George Osborne. You're having a blast, aren't you?
I see the cars swept away, George Osborne, the waters pouring even over the Thames Barrier. I see the swirling tide cascade through the streets, taking black cabs and buses with it. I hear the storm raging, the torrent hammering down, the whirlpools sucking down rubble and collapsing buildings.
And still you laugh, George Osborne. Cuts! Who needs the North anyway? Money wasn't an object for Somerset, but they voted for you, so they get sandbags. You're sure everything is fine, but you're so ****ing high now you haven't looked out the window and you've no idea what's coming.
I see the water pour over the tops of all but the highest buildings. It's just two floors below you now, nearly the whole of London swallowed by the maelstrom. In the distant fog I see the lights and I hear the thunderous horn. Something is coming, George Osborne. Something huge, something angry, something mechanical and yet very much alive.
I see the cogs and the great gears whirring in the floating fortress, George Osborne. I see the paddles splashing, the great chimneys pouring smoke, the furnaces burning. I feel the heat of molten metal and hear the terrible industrial groaning. I see the sailors, each of them stony-faced and staring ahead, fixed on you in the distance. I see their stern faces and I hear their growled orders. It's here, George Osborne. It's not a fiction or a fairytale. It's here, and it's coming for you.
The Northern Powerhouse, George Osborne. It's here and it's pissed off and it's coming for you.
I see the great fortress power through the squall, the waters boiling away in great gouts of steam in its wake. I see it crash through the tip of the Shard, the clouds of shattered glass sparkling in the sudden light cast by a lightning strike. I hear you laughing obliviously, George Osborne. I see you thrown to the floor and shrieking like a baby as the Powerhouse smashes into your building.
I see the girders twist, George Osborne, parting like shattered teeth to expose you to the howling wind and rain. I see the grappling hooks thrown into the room, catching on mahogany furniture and priceless fur rugs. I see you scramble to your feet, laughing manically, blood pouring from one powdered nostril. I hear you roar as the sailors rappel down the lines, landing in the room and lining up before you.
Northerners. Your natural enemy, George Osborne.
I see them draw their knives, George Osborne. I see their thin blades and razor edges. Ten men, and a hundred cuts each.
Cuts, George Osborne. Lovely, lovely cuts. Cuts to services. Cuts to welfare spending. Cuts to flesh.
Death by a thousand cuts, George Osborne.
I see you, George Osborne. I ****ing see you.

From facebook

I'm no expert but I've read a lot of stuff saying the dredging thing is a load of bollocks. Just means faster flowing water hitting somewhere further downstream. It can work in certain areas but would be of no use to Calderdale, apparently.

I've woken up with rotten lurgy - hopefully not related to sweeping out manky flood water yesterday. Going to try and head down into town and help for a bit anyway.

Climate scientists might as well been talking out of there arses for the notice government has taken. Wetter Milder winters was the warning. They should used "Biblically Wet and Stupidly warm winters" but would have been accused of Hyperbolic scaremongering. Tories still pay lip service to Climate Change and will never use the A word it's a lefty/green conspiracy I tell ya !

Road update from WestYorks Police: Movement in the A646 Burnley Rd into Hebden Bridge has reduced it to one lane causing delays.Please avoid.

[img] [/img]

To the left of that is the canal and the Calder. Downstream, Mytholmroyd

Woodlikesbeer +1

Got to say you guys in the Flood area have my sympathies, couldn't believe it when I eventually re surfaced after Christmas to read about it. So sorry for you all, there are quite a lot of folk on this forum from up that way aren't there? Terrible thing flooding.

Plus why aren't councils insisting old deralict properties are knocked down and redeveloped first?

A couple of reasons. First there's not as much profit as building on green land. Second, just because a property is empty and / or derelict it still has an owner. Thousands of properties across the country are being kept empty whilst the value of the land they are built on increases. If they are rented out, then expense is incurred.

There is not a housing shortage in this country, there is a shortage of affordable housing. How is building thousands of detached properties on green land going to address this?. It's not. It just generates more money.

Coyote has really hit the nail on the head. Addressing it could deal with quite a few societal issues.

We had a "what would you do if you won the £100 million Euros jackpot" conversation at work a couple of weeks ago. I said I'd keep £10 million for me and plough the rest into a charitable trust building/offering affordable rental housing on derelict/brown field sites.

Pretty sure it would be viable if you take away the over riding profit motive. Maybe offer some of those in need of the housing apprenticeships and jobs in the building trades involved as well.

Cut n pasted from The Grauniad comments page:

Floods hit Thames Valley stockbroker belt in 2014;
"Nothing is more important than dealing with these floods. Money is no object in this relief effort." - David Cameron.

Floods hit Northern England in 2015;
After every flood, the thing to do is sit down, look at the money you are spending, look at what you are building, look at what you are planning to build in the future and ask: ‘Is it enough?’” - David Cameron.

They were declared unprecedented in Summer 2007 when a months worth of rain fell in 24 hours causing flooding across Northern Ireland, Yorkshire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Herefordshire and Oxfordshire resulting in 13 deaths and £6 billion of damage.

They were unprecedented in 2009 when we had the wettest November and December since 1914 and most of the UK experienced some flooding resulting in 4 deaths.

It was unprecedented in 2012 when large thunderstorms caused flash flooding across Worcestershire and Northamptonshire resulting in 9 deaths and £1 billion of damage.

It was unprecedented in 2013-2014 when we saw the wettest December-January since 1876 and the Somerset Levels disappeared causing at least 17 deaths.

When do these events stop being unprecedented and become precedented?

When do these events stop being unprecedented and become precedented?

when that level of flooding has been seen before ?

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Thought he was perhaps being a little paranoid, so hunted around for a couple of days. He's right: nada. Even though the crews are all over it, working 24/7 shifts.

Whats going on here then?

Thought he was perhaps being a little paranoid, so hunted around for a couple of days. He's right: nada. Even though the crews are all over it, working 24/7 shifts.

Whats going on here then?

Took about 5 seconds to find a photo on Google: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/weather/9747055/Britain-braced-for-flooding-as-heavy-rain-returns.html

It doesn't mean they shouldn't be getting a bit more publicity, but it's a stretch to say they're being completely ignored. And the army will always get more publicity as they're only called out in exceptional circumstances.

The army should be asking why troops are wading around in standard uniform when the blue light services won't go near the water without full PPE and rescue gear (quite rightly)

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

They will also have a press team, they are probably on holiday skiing somewhere ATM (with a lot of reporters) which is why the press stuff is less. The FBU will also have a press team, I bet they are on holiday too. No conspiracy, just the people who get stories into the press/ TV not around

Hebden Area updates:

Towpath from Hebden as far as Calis Bridge is in a dire state. Chunks out of it at Stubbing Warff, and the section below the moorings at Calis Bridge is closed - it's more or less breached, it'll go if we get more water down. The houses there are in a bad way - one has had their sittingroom floor collapse into their basement.

Lots of trees in the water and quite a few landslips into the canal. On the Calder side, there are landslips into the river by the house on stilts and the wall below the house looks really dodgy.

Calis Bridge is fine - the bridge above it...not so sure. Road up from Calis to the PBW is fine, bridleway above the DH trails is fine - trails took a hammering. Old Chamber - Honestly box is fine all the way down to town. Chipps's Birthday looks pretty clear on the top section, under the bridge all the boulders have moved, below it... nightmare.

Will ride a bit more tomorrow after cleaning someones shop in the morning.

G

Greg

If people want to come over to help out with the cleanup is there something organised?

Dredging is an interesting point in that article. There are arguments for and against, but I know that where we lived on the edge of the Fens the river that left the tidemark in 53 was fine when it was dreged when I was a kid, but after they stopped dredging it peaked higher and higher, causing my parents to move, and within a couple of years of them moving they had the first flood alert for 30 years. Dredging may or may not have been a factor.

They used to pile the dredged material to build up flood banks iirc

Countzero- dredging doesn't work. Sea levels are getting higher. It doesn't matter how deep the bottom of the drain is if it's below the sea it's trying to drain into. That's what happened in Somerset and that is what's going to happen again and again.

when that level of flooding has been seen before ?

So its the level and not the frequency of these events then?

Panic over chaps.

Stuff about dredging:

http://www.monbiot.com/2014/01/30/dredged-up/

It's truly awful some of the footage. However, the support local commutines are doing for each other across Calderdale is inspirational.

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Really? That's his concern that they're not getting coverage?

I hate to be the harbinger of more bad news, but Storm Frank isn't going to help midweek.

I'm guessing planting a shed load of trees on the Pennines /moors would be the only realistic long term solution.

Dredging and building barriers is massively expensive, and only seems to shift the problem down river.

Sea levels are getting higher.

By about 1.4mm per year. I doubt that is enough to be a huge factor in recent flooding.

[img] [/img]

I'd be very surprised if anyone is making the dredging argument for some of the catchments currently experiencing flooding.

Rising sea levels are not the problem, they are 'a' problem, but not in this case.. it's increased rainfall... Not massively increased but a prolonged slight increase.

Once the hills are saturated, the water just runs down them into streams and rivers.. And towns in valleys get flooded.

However, the support local commutines are doing for each other across Calderdale is inspirational.

+1 It truly is. Never ceases to amaze me how generous Brits are to one another when shit like this happens.

And don't you worry, once the MPs are back from stuffing their faces they'll be falling over themselves to tell us how inspirational the communities have been. But I dunno, something tells me these communities have been a bit shafted to be in this position in the first place.

If windfarms came in the top 100 contributors to flooding I would be suprisedamazed.

So you don't see the loss of large swathes of deep peat moorland as an effective sponge as a top 100 contributer? Or do they parachute in the 150 t cranes that they use to build and maintain the turbines on to floating cushions?

The construction of the access roads and the culverting they need cause an accelerated loss of peat and create new watercourses . Not to mention the damage to water quality for water companies and private supplies as the peat no longer acts as the buffer during rainfall events

Separate issue:

Cycle factory Todmorden:
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2016 Kona Process 153 medium
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Cycle factory Todmorden after clearing up after floods, really nice salt of the earth folk, if anyone can help contact on facebook address below.

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Really? That's his concern that they're not getting coverage?

Took about 5 seconds to find a photo on Google:

2012

Really? That's his concern that they're not getting coverage?

Yeah I get that bit but we can't expect coverage when dealing with 1500 calls a day the press would need to run a supplement to cover the work. But I wouldn't whine and never have after an incident that we hadn't had coverage.

But I wouldn't whine and never have after an incident that we hadn't had coverage.

1500

And here's me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.

I can't believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn't being said about them at the moment.

Maybe I've just got use to it.

Not bad.

I'd hope not Scotroutes.

Anyway back to the topic. I hope the forecast for Wednesday is wrong.

They'll have shed loads of insurance work for their second jobs anyway.

As for Wednesday, yeah, too right. Be wrong weatherman.

And here's me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.

I can't believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn't being said about them at the moment.

surely you get that? its not a wish for coverage or recognition at all, just a dislike of the government really and the way they do business. im sure we're not alone in that.

[quote=scotroutes ]And here's me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.
I can't believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn't being said about them at the moment.

I gave up on what the public think about us many years ago. They really don't care until such time as they need us, then they forget about us as quick.

I used to take pride in telling people what I do, now I tell people I am a local gov employee. 4yrs and counting til I get my gold plated pension and finally bring this country to its knees.

4yrs and counting til I get my gold plated pension and finally bring this country to its knees

I'm glad for you. Mine will be gone by June as will have any hope of retiring before an age twenty years less than yours will be when you collect.

When do good you come out good though.

You need to practise your Google fu;

Saw it was old shortly after posting, but there were so many photos of firefighters I couldn't be bothered to change it. They are also in today's selection of photos about the flooding in the Telegraph, there was a picture of one on the front of the BBC news site, I've even seen them on the Spanish news...

That said, it is true that they seen to be generally referred to as "emergency services", although given the amount of waste around you'd be hard pushed to start a fire right now, which could be the reason.

emergency services", although given the amount of waste around you'd be hard pushed to start a fire right now, which could be the reason.

After the Pitt review all of the responding authorities were forced to respond in a more integrated manner. In combination with this are directly employed private organisations delivering the same services. It can be impossible to tell who is who at any given moment.

Have fire services been given statutory responsibility for inland water rescue yet? Or indeed the funding required for equipment and training to perform that task? Or are they still buying boats and drysuitz out of other parts of FRS budget and rescuing people from floods on an ad hoc basis with some brigades not equipped for water rescue?

Bridge at Elland is a no go now.

still idiots bleating that dredging doesn't work!

Oh the irony

The informed opinion (rather than angry people) seems to be that dredging increases river capacity a bit, in the short term, but nowhere near enough to handle freak rainfall like this.

So basically it won't work, and money is better spent elsewhere.

LOLZ at dredging idea.

If you think dredging would have helped in this case you clearly have never been to Calderdale and don't know much about how much water has actually been in the catchments during these floods events.

Example.

This is the Calder and Hebble navigation canal at Elland on a normal day as seen from Elland bridge.
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And this is it this week - river so overwhelmed with so much water it filled the canal - and this isn't even at its highest. It also wasn't a static pool - this was fast flowing water.

[URL= http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp187/rcatkin/random/4DAB45C2-C47A-4C7D-BC36-C79DC4A930DA_zpsryf7ivth.pn g" target="_blank">http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp187/rcatkin/random/4DAB45C2-C47A-4C7D-BC36-C79DC4A930DA_zpsryf7ivth.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Video here:
https://twitter.com/yorkshireguy/status/680739898823962624

In mytholmroyd the flood water was 3 METRES above normal levels and at that same depth accross the whole flooded area. So maybe you say "build a 3m high wall" - which would be completely daft anyway - not even that would work as that 3m depth was spread so wide the defences would need to be tens of metres tall to contain it.

" drains have to be kept clear.mthis much is just common sense; if you take a pint mug, fill the bottom third with sand, then try to pour a pint into it, you really shouldn't act all surprised when your shoes get wet, but that does seem to have been the way the EA has behaved for the last twenty years, and there are still idiots bleating that dredging doesn't work!"

FACEPALM.

But it wasn't a pint that fell from the sky, it was several gallons into one pint. Scooping a bit of cack from the bottom of the channel would have made no difference whatsoever.

This has been up the road from me.
[url= https://m.facebook.com/crostonnews/photos/a.535106059838096.138024.247979655217406/1235057619842933/?type=3&source=48 ]big copter[/url]

the dredging thing is a classic way of avoiding talking about the real causes and problems.

Dredging is appropriate in some locations more so than others. It is just one of a number of tools. Won't help much when you get shed loads of rain over and over again. The biggest issue is the EA senior management culture coupled with the fact it's largely government funded. the only thing they manage worse is water resources.

when i was a kid at school, we where taught about FLOOD PLAINS large areas of land left fallow to soak up flood water, but for some reason these areas of land are now being built on, increasing the risk of flooding as the water has to find somwewhere else to go , theres also the problem with run off from the buildings roofs, look art the roof size of your average out of town shed/store, a huge volume of water collected from 30 plus feet up and fed directly into 100 year plus sewers, then into rivers.

and what with the atmosphere getting warmer and holding more moisture so there's more water available to fall as rain and everything as the water cycle runs faster in an enhanced greenhouse world...

Uncomfortable truth is that some places will flood, occasionally.

We've been fooled by the Canute delusion into thinking that defences can prevent that - they can't, they can reduce how often it happens, however there will always be freak events that show us who is in charge

[IMG] [/IMG]

Of course, the idea of houses in risk zones being designed with flood resistance, and not building on flood plains, is far too much like commo. Sense - I'm reminded about that woman who was on telly a couple of years back complaining her expensive hardwood kitchen floor had been ruined, just after being repaired from the previous flood...

I don't see why we can't build on flood plains, the problem is the traditional style house that we demand. With a little thought anything is possible.
[img] [/img]
Of course, a more sensible solution would be to redevelop existing buildings.

Its not just flood plains being built on, apparently the land (6500 hectares) above hebden bridge has been drained for grouse moors, helping to cause the flooding whilst reading government subsidies for the landowner

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/29/deluge-farmers-flood-grouse-moor-drain-land

appears the main bridge in Tadcaster has now patially collapsed

the Canute delusion

The reverse is true, Canute tried to stop the tide to demonstrate that he couldn't actually do that to the early church and thus demonstrating the supreme power of God

The delusion is due to Norman PR post conquest

The wind is picking up in s-w scotland at the moment and with the forecast for 100mm of rain i imagine they'll be a fair amount of trees blown over throughout scotland and cumbria as their root systems will be waterlogged and unable to hold fast in the ground - I was out in my local woods earlier where i have built trails over the past 20+ years and the entire forest floor was moving around when the gusts were particularly strong.

It seems to me that this is now what our winters are going to be like. Wet westerly after wet westerly. What's needed is a restructuring on such a huge scale that it is likely to be beyond the grasp of our short-termist culture, political and civil...

Tadcaster bridges - does anyone know if the old railway viaduct is intact? My cycle commute (York to Castleford) normally goes across that bridge that just fell down. Not the biggest problem, minuscule compared to other people's, but if anyone has any information it would be appreciated.

y cycle commute (York to Castleford) normally goes across that bridge that just fell down

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

So much work still to be done in Hebden. Spent the day taking apart a shop - floor, walls, floor supports - everything. Pretty sobering. But I did get to hit a lot of things with a sledgehammer...which was nice.

Main street looks like it's in one piece if you ignore the empty shops. But then you go on the back streets...things are really not good. EPA are reminding people that it's all contaminated, it's not nice, not even close to it.

[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1598/23754915770_a322e9372c_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1598/23754915770_a322e9372c_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/Cc99Rh ]IMGP0900[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/13995637@N08/ ]Greg.May[/url], on Flickr

I went riding in the South Lakes today, worst I've ever seen it. Bridges in pieces, massive craters ripped out of the roads, gravel over everything, debris 4+ metres above the waterline around all the lakes, fields still under water. I've seen plenty of flooding and mel****er up there over the years but this was on another level altogether and that was a week after the last major rainfall there. God knows what will hit it tonight with the next storm. 🙁

I like that Tadcaster bridge although given the number of floods that have hit it in the last 10 years I'm not surprised it's given up the unequal struggle.

Those will be our electricity cables then, bongohoohaa.

And kimbers, no - I just said I never ride park on the S&S thread, I don't want to have to repeat myself - or have to try a jump, I'd only hurt myself

Of course the next problem in Tadcaster will be that bits of collapsed bridge will be blocking the water flow if the next flood comes soon.

big_n_daft - Member
So you don't see the loss of large swathes of deep peat moorland as an effective sponge as a top 100 contributer? Or do they parachute in the 150 t cranes that they use to build and maintain the turbines on to floating cushions?

The construction of the access roads and the culverting they need cause an accelerated loss of peat and create new watercourses . Not to mention the damage to water quality for water companies and private supplies as the peat no longer acts as the buffer during rainfall events

Actually they do use floating cushions
[url= http://www.windfarmbop.com/floating-roads-on-peat/ ]Floating Roads[/url]

I have used floating roads on a few windfarms. A geogrid membrane is placed straight onto peat with a layer of stone. Sometimes another layer of geogrid and more stone. The vegetation is not broken and retains its structure. Because the roads sits on top of peat no culverts or ditches are required.

Turbines are often micro-sited to areas where peat layer is thinner. Peat is an earthworks contractors worst nightmare and all attempts are taken where possible to leave it undisturbed.

Even where peat is excavated, it is nearly always placed adjacent to the road or turbine base or hardstand where it came from. I have never worked on a wind farm where any peat has been removed from the site.

Opencast coal extraction has a far bigger effect on water levels and potential flooding. I know great swathes of East Lothian and the East coast mainline that are kept dry by borehole pumps following coal extraction.

I think the argument to prevent wind farm construction on a generalisation that they may cause flooding is a weak one. Looking at the bigger picture they will do more good than harm to the environment. I bet new retail developments, housing, loss of parkland, monob-locking gardens, agriculture, use of cars and poor town planning massively outdo any adverse flooding effects from windfarms. Flood event, better blame Tesco.

"[b]wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews[/b]."

Reasons for keeping good publicity [and minimising public sympathy] about the fire service out of the news:

"[i][b]South and West Yorkshire Fire Services[/b] have [b]cut about £20m from their combined budgets since 2011[/b][/i]."

"[i]Fire services in South and West Yorkshire could be merged in a bid to save money.[[b]make even more financial cuts[/b]][/i]"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34812427

[b]The government are proposing merging ALL fire services with the police to try to justify even more budgetary cuts[/b]

"[i]Theresa May risks “turning the clock back 140 years” with discredited plans for police and crime commissioners (PCCs) to take over fire authorities...[/i]"

"[i]these proposals threaten to damage the well-earned trust of the public in firefighters, hamper innovation and will lead to the fragmentation of emergency services delivery across the UK[/i]"

Any centre or right wing news delivery will have made sure public sympathy for the dedication and bravery of the fire service is kept to the absolute minimum.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/19/fire-brigades-union-voices-anger-at-plans-to-hand-oversight-to-pccs