[Closed] Flooding

Cut n pasted from The Grauniad comments page:

Floods hit Thames Valley stockbroker belt in 2014;
"Nothing is more important than dealing with these floods. Money is no object in this relief effort." - David Cameron.

Floods hit Northern England in 2015;
After every flood, the thing to do is sit down, look at the money you are spending, look at what you are building, look at what you are planning to build in the future and ask: ‘Is it enough?’” - David Cameron.

They were declared unprecedented in Summer 2007 when a months worth of rain fell in 24 hours causing flooding across Northern Ireland, Yorkshire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Herefordshire and Oxfordshire resulting in 13 deaths and £6 billion of damage.

They were unprecedented in 2009 when we had the wettest November and December since 1914 and most of the UK experienced some flooding resulting in 4 deaths.

It was unprecedented in 2012 when large thunderstorms caused flash flooding across Worcestershire and Northamptonshire resulting in 9 deaths and £1 billion of damage.

It was unprecedented in 2013-2014 when we saw the wettest December-January since 1876 and the Somerset Levels disappeared causing at least 17 deaths.

When do these events stop being unprecedented and become precedented?

When do these events stop being unprecedented and become precedented?

when that level of flooding has been seen before ?

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Thought he was perhaps being a little paranoid, so hunted around for a couple of days. He's right: nada. Even though the crews are all over it, working 24/7 shifts.

Whats going on here then?

Thought he was perhaps being a little paranoid, so hunted around for a couple of days. He's right: nada. Even though the crews are all over it, working 24/7 shifts.

Whats going on here then?

Took about 5 seconds to find a photo on Google: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/weather/9747055/Britain-braced-for-flooding-as-heavy-rain-returns.html

It doesn't mean they shouldn't be getting a bit more publicity, but it's a stretch to say they're being completely ignored. And the army will always get more publicity as they're only called out in exceptional circumstances.

The army should be asking why troops are wading around in standard uniform when the blue light services won't go near the water without full PPE and rescue gear (quite rightly)

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

The fire service was the main one on the boats with reporters etc in Cumbria, in fact police and ambulance have been quiet in the news

They will also have a press team, they are probably on holiday skiing somewhere ATM (with a lot of reporters) which is why the press stuff is less. The FBU will also have a press team, I bet they are on holiday too. No conspiracy, just the people who get stories into the press/ TV not around

Hebden Area updates:

Towpath from Hebden as far as Calis Bridge is in a dire state. Chunks out of it at Stubbing Warff, and the section below the moorings at Calis Bridge is closed - it's more or less breached, it'll go if we get more water down. The houses there are in a bad way - one has had their sittingroom floor collapse into their basement.

Lots of trees in the water and quite a few landslips into the canal. On the Calder side, there are landslips into the river by the house on stilts and the wall below the house looks really dodgy.

Calis Bridge is fine - the bridge above it...not so sure. Road up from Calis to the PBW is fine, bridleway above the DH trails is fine - trails took a hammering. Old Chamber - Honestly box is fine all the way down to town. Chipps's Birthday looks pretty clear on the top section, under the bridge all the boulders have moved, below it... nightmare.

Will ride a bit more tomorrow after cleaning someones shop in the morning.

G

Greg

If people want to come over to help out with the cleanup is there something organised?

Dredging is an interesting point in that article. There are arguments for and against, but I know that where we lived on the edge of the Fens the river that left the tidemark in 53 was fine when it was dreged when I was a kid, but after they stopped dredging it peaked higher and higher, causing my parents to move, and within a couple of years of them moving they had the first flood alert for 30 years. Dredging may or may not have been a factor.

They used to pile the dredged material to build up flood banks iirc

Same as the Somerset Levels, both are totally man-made environments just like most of the Nederlands. The Levels were created around 1000-1500 years ago by monks digging drains and ditches to allow the marshes to be used for cultivation, so in order for the land to be continued to be used for that purpose, and people to continue to live where they have for generations, the drains have to be kept clear.mthis much is just common sense; if you take a pint mug, fill the bottom third with sand, then try to pour a pint into it, you really shouldn't act all surprised when your shoes get wet, but that does seem to have been the way the EA has behaved for the last twenty years, and there are still idiots bleating that dredging doesn't work!
Of course it works, when it's being carried out in an environment that was artificially created by dredging ditches.
The situation up north now is obviously different, as most of the rivers are rocky, and can't really be dredged, the problem seems to be down to sheer volume of water cascading off the high ground; this needs to be looked at quickly to try to find ways to absorb the water high up, to slow the flow into lower areas.

Countzero- dredging doesn't work. Sea levels are getting higher. It doesn't matter how deep the bottom of the drain is if it's below the sea it's trying to drain into. That's what happened in Somerset and that is what's going to happen again and again.

when that level of flooding has been seen before ?

So its the level and not the frequency of these events then?

Panic over chaps.

Stuff about dredging:

http://www.monbiot.com/2014/01/30/dredged-up/

It's truly awful some of the footage. However, the support local commutines are doing for each other across Calderdale is inspirational.

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Really? That's his concern that they're not getting coverage?

I hate to be the harbinger of more bad news, but Storm Frank isn't going to help midweek.

I'm guessing planting a shed load of trees on the Pennines /moors would be the only realistic long term solution.

Dredging and building barriers is massively expensive, and only seems to shift the problem down river.

Sea levels are getting higher.

By about 1.4mm per year. I doubt that is enough to be a huge factor in recent flooding.

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I'd be very surprised if anyone is making the dredging argument for some of the catchments currently experiencing flooding.

Rising sea levels are not the problem, they are 'a' problem, but not in this case.. it's increased rainfall... Not massively increased but a prolonged slight increase.

Once the hills are saturated, the water just runs down them into streams and rivers.. And towns in valleys get flooded.

However, the support local commutines are doing for each other across Calderdale is inspirational.

+1 It truly is. Never ceases to amaze me how generous Brits are to one another when shit like this happens.

And don't you worry, once the MPs are back from stuffing their faces they'll be falling over themselves to tell us how inspirational the communities have been. But I dunno, something tells me these communities have been a bit shafted to be in this position in the first place.

If windfarms came in the top 100 contributors to flooding I would be suprisedamazed.

So you don't see the loss of large swathes of deep peat moorland as an effective sponge as a top 100 contributer? Or do they parachute in the 150 t cranes that they use to build and maintain the turbines on to floating cushions?

The construction of the access roads and the culverting they need cause an accelerated loss of peat and create new watercourses . Not to mention the damage to water quality for water companies and private supplies as the peat no longer acts as the buffer during rainfall events

Separate issue:

Cycle factory Todmorden:
[i]
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2016 Kona Process 153 medium
2016 Kona Hei Hei Trail medium only one in the country!
2016 Kona Process 111 medium
2016 Kona Precept 150 large (boxed)
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2016 Cube Analog 21" boxed

Cycle factory Todmorden after clearing up after floods, really nice salt of the earth folk, if anyone can help contact on facebook address below.

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he's not going crazy. Although they don't ask for publicity, he's wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

its something thats been doing the rounds for a while now, the way the bbc appear to be purposely omitting the word 'firefighters' from the coverage. in cumbria there were plenty of 'boat crews' and 'rescue teams' helping out, not firefighters. just as last year when we brought central london to a standstill marching against the government, fighting for our pensions, there wasnt a mention of it on the news. nobody knew. if it had been the EDL or the like, id guess there would have been enough coverage.
cynical? moi?

Really? That's his concern that they're not getting coverage?

thats not how i read it.

Took about 5 seconds to find a photo on Google:

You need to practise your Google fu;

2012

isn't proving much either way.

Really? That's his concern that they're not getting coverage?

Ah, come on Drac, fairs fair. Maybe it's different up your neck of the woods, but ambo peeps ALWAYS used to moan that it was always 'the fire service that rescued and gave first aid to the patient' who was subsequently magically just 'taken to hospital for treatment' with ne'er mention of any prehospital care or who by. Our Trust is better at blowing its own trumpet these days, (sometimes too good!) but lack of coverage compared to other agencies involved was always noticed by those involved. Fairs fair; the public would expect to be told just who is fishing people out of the floods, and if Trumpton aren't being recognised for the excellent, filthy, hard, and long work they are doing, I think I'd feel a bit miffed too.

Yeah I get that bit but we can't expect coverage when dealing with 1500 calls a day the press would need to run a supplement to cover the work. But I wouldn't whine and never have after an incident that we hadn't had coverage.

But I wouldn't whine and never have after an incident that we hadn't had coverage.

No, me neither. I'm largely motivated by a) getting paid and b) a job well done, but different folk are motivated by different stuff. I've seen staff absolutely furious that the incredibly hard work that they've put in themselves on a job has been eclipsed by, say, the attendance of a fire crew or air ambulance who didn't actually do anything at the job but got all the press attention. And I can kind of see why. Fairs (very rarely) fair, after all.

1500

Pah, I see you and raise you 3100 😉

And here's me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.

I can't believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn't being said about them at the moment.

Maybe I've just got use to it.

Not bad.

I'd hope not Scotroutes.

Anyway back to the topic. I hope the forecast for Wednesday is wrong.

They'll have shed loads of insurance work for their second jobs anyway.

As for Wednesday, yeah, too right. Be wrong weatherman.

And here's me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.

tis 100% true.

I can't believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn't being said about them at the moment.

not bothered in the slightest, its more a cynical observation of the way the government want to portray us, as we're still officially in dispute.

surely you get that? its not a wish for coverage or recognition at all, just a dislike of the government really and the way they do business. im sure we're not alone in that.

[quote=scotroutes ]And here's me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.
I can't believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn't being said about them at the moment.

I gave up on what the public think about us many years ago. They really don't care until such time as they need us, then they forget about us as quick.

I used to take pride in telling people what I do, now I tell people I am a local gov employee. 4yrs and counting til I get my gold plated pension and finally bring this country to its knees.

4yrs and counting til I get my gold plated pension and finally bring this country to its knees

I'm glad for you. Mine will be gone by June as will have any hope of retiring before an age twenty years less than yours will be when you collect.

When do good you come out good though.

You need to practise your Google fu;

Saw it was old shortly after posting, but there were so many photos of firefighters I couldn't be bothered to change it. They are also in today's selection of photos about the flooding in the Telegraph, there was a picture of one on the front of the BBC news site, I've even seen them on the Spanish news...

That said, it is true that they seen to be generally referred to as "emergency services", although given the amount of waste around you'd be hard pushed to start a fire right now, which could be the reason.

emergency services", although given the amount of waste around you'd be hard pushed to start a fire right now, which could be the reason.

I reckon that the simple, non conspiracy theory reason for this is simply that a lot of other organisations are involved these days; the meeja probably have a bit of a hard time/can't be arsed to identify which organisation provided which dry suited crappie waist deep in water. They all look fairly similar, in similar kit.

After the Pitt review all of the responding authorities were forced to respond in a more integrated manner. In combination with this are directly employed private organisations delivering the same services. It can be impossible to tell who is who at any given moment.

Have fire services been given statutory responsibility for inland water rescue yet? Or indeed the funding required for equipment and training to perform that task? Or are they still buying boats and drysuitz out of other parts of FRS budget and rescuing people from floods on an ad hoc basis with some brigades not equipped for water rescue?

Bridge at Elland is a no go now.

still idiots bleating that dredging doesn't work!

Oh the irony

The informed opinion (rather than angry people) seems to be that dredging increases river capacity a bit, in the short term, but nowhere near enough to handle freak rainfall like this.

So basically it won't work, and money is better spent elsewhere.

LOLZ at dredging idea.

If you think dredging would have helped in this case you clearly have never been to Calderdale and don't know much about how much water has actually been in the catchments during these floods events.

Example.

This is the Calder and Hebble navigation canal at Elland on a normal day as seen from Elland bridge.
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And this is it this week - river so overwhelmed with so much water it filled the canal - and this isn't even at its highest. It also wasn't a static pool - this was fast flowing water.

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Video here:
https://twitter.com/yorkshireguy/status/680739898823962624

In mytholmroyd the flood water was 3 METRES above normal levels and at that same depth accross the whole flooded area. So maybe you say "build a 3m high wall" - which would be completely daft anyway - not even that would work as that 3m depth was spread so wide the defences would need to be tens of metres tall to contain it.

" drains have to be kept clear.mthis much is just common sense; if you take a pint mug, fill the bottom third with sand, then try to pour a pint into it, you really shouldn't act all surprised when your shoes get wet, but that does seem to have been the way the EA has behaved for the last twenty years, and there are still idiots bleating that dredging doesn't work!"

FACEPALM.

But it wasn't a pint that fell from the sky, it was several gallons into one pint. Scooping a bit of cack from the bottom of the channel would have made no difference whatsoever.

This has been up the road from me.
[url= https://m.facebook.com/crostonnews/photos/a.535106059838096.138024.247979655217406/1235057619842933/?type=3&source=48 ]big copter[/url]

the dredging thing is a classic way of avoiding talking about the real causes and problems.

Dredging is appropriate in some locations more so than others. It is just one of a number of tools. Won't help much when you get shed loads of rain over and over again. The biggest issue is the EA senior management culture coupled with the fact it's largely government funded. the only thing they manage worse is water resources.

when i was a kid at school, we where taught about FLOOD PLAINS large areas of land left fallow to soak up flood water, but for some reason these areas of land are now being built on, increasing the risk of flooding as the water has to find somwewhere else to go , theres also the problem with run off from the buildings roofs, look art the roof size of your average out of town shed/store, a huge volume of water collected from 30 plus feet up and fed directly into 100 year plus sewers, then into rivers.

and what with the atmosphere getting warmer and holding more moisture so there's more water available to fall as rain and everything as the water cycle runs faster in an enhanced greenhouse world...