First BMW, now Audi enforcing subscription services.

I don't see how that's different to the old days of paying extra for electric windows, A/C, CD player?

I remember my Dad ordered a C-Class back in 2000-ish and didn't choose the 6-CD player, but it came with one anyway, presumably because "everybody" paid the extra so they just fitted them regardless.

BMW stopped doing this in September 2023.

And even then with BMW at least you could still buy the option upfront anyway so that was no problem. Not sure about Audi.

That's not corporate greed, it's good business sense.

It's a very competitive market so if that doesn't work for you just buy another mass produced brand.

I'd imagine that as people have found a work around for keyless entry and ignition, this will be hacked pretty quickly somewhere down the line too.

As a subscription service, my concern is how much control a manufacturer still has over a thing you've purchased. What if they decide to stop offering the subscription to that feature? They just switch it off?

Audi?
I don't see how that'll affect anyone on here. Oh, wait...

I'm not a fan of subscription services but being able to activate stuff for a one-off fee after purchase makes sense to me (I assume it's either cost neutral for the manufacturer to include the part due to efficiency savings in less build variations or they might even make money assuming enough people do activate stuff later).

Big no on the subscription front but the idea of being able to buy a used car and turn on a feature I want but previous owners didn't appeals.

What if they decide to stop offering the subscription to that feature?

That's already the case with connected services. Early leafs are losing their connectivity at the moment even though it's not paid for, and I don't think OnStar ever worked in my car.

This is a way of lowering the cost of a car with a feature to the purchaser, whilst retaining the revenue stream over time. Makes sense.

BMW stopped doing this in September 2023.

How come I’m still paying for “traffic information” then?

Post-sale activation is very handy for another two reasons…

1) the £40k “luxury” vehicle tax. If you can activate after sale on a car that’s borderline, you can avoid the tax.
2) p11d value for BIK. Similar to the above, if an option is activated after sale, it’s not counted, so you’ll pay less BIK.

I don’t really have a problem with manufacturers doing this, it’s just another way of paying for options. One that even makes it a little better for the secondhand market. First owner didn’t option Adaptive Cruise? No bother, just add it yourself to a secondhand car. No searching for a unicorn with it already optioned.

How come I’m still paying for “traffic information” then?

Because you're paying for a live service and this has always been the case for traffic, tracking, etc. 

"I’d imagine that as people have found a work around for keyless entry and ignition, this will be hacked pretty quickly somewhere down the line too."

MrsSB recently bought a car with carplay on it. Turns out the ICE unit also has Android Auto on it but the manufacturer didn't reach an agreement with Google so it's not enabled.
I found a hack that allows it to be enabled. I've only just told her I messed with her pride and joy 😬

"the £40k “luxury” vehicle tax. If you can activate after sale on a car that’s borderline, you can avoid the tax."

I don't think it works like that. (Car valuation will probably be with all the built in options)

"Early leafs are losing their connectivity at the moment"

Not really Nissans fault though - it's because 2g services are being switched off.

Those saying it might be good for second hand buyers are presumably thinking of people buying a car that is only a few years old. Is there really any chance of being able to activate the features 10 or 15 years later? Maybe if it's been hacked I guess, but my concern is that this seems to be part of a trend by manufacturers to shorten the useful life of a car (i.e. make it obsolete before its time).

With EVs it seems as though we are not far off batteries that should be good for half a million miles. Put that into a nicely galvanised body and you could easily build a car that would last 20-30 years. From an environmental point of view that longer life would probably be even more of a benefit than the shift from ICE itself. But it's a worry for manufacturers who rely on us buying new cars long before out old ones are worn out. So, make the owner subscribe to as many features as possible and then you can stop supporting them after a few years and force them to "upgrade". Making a car more like a phone I guess.

Another clickbait article.
Audi, like other manufacturers, build vars with some specifications already in. You can pay to unlock them for a month, 12 months or longer. They’ve had this for a few years.

Of course you can also buy the model that has them featured without unlocking.

"Not really Nissans fault though – it’s because 2g services are being switched off."

The service switch off is not for several years yet, Nissan have gone early because it saves them money running servers. So yes it is Nissan's fault.
Also a lack of foresight on a consumer durable that there is not an easy way to switch the systems to 4G as it's been around for a good while and in planning for even longer.

First they came for the doorbells....

[i]With EVs it seems as though we are not far off batteries that should be good for half a million miles. Put that into a nicely galvanised body and you could easily build a car that would last 20-30 years.[/]

The fact that it is possible does not make it viable or desirable. It is like the 'Dubai bulbs' which seem such a great idea. Now designers are being frustrated by having to incorporate all the old tech lightbulbs when they want to use new stuff. Forgetting the commercial desire to keep sell lots of cars for a minute and think about the consequences of slowing the car market - less evolution and development as the sales cycles lengthen and lots of tech that is 10-20 years behind what is happening outside of the car.

I remember when you paid extra for a passenger side wing mirror! 🤣 🤣 🤣

Never buying a car with this. Bet it is popular with the comfortably poor German car club owners and makes the companies a lot of coin though.

The service switch off is not for several years yet

Errr, 2G and 3G has already started being switched off in the Nordics. And (i think) Germany, plus a couple of others. Much of North America and Asia Pacific is in the midst of the switch off (2020 to 2025).
No idea why they'd switch off the servers when the vast majority of their customers have no access to 2G. /s
Sound business decision.

Looks like all the car manufacturers are jumping on the subscription bandwagon, fit all the extras in the car, then force the owner to pay extra to ‘unlock’ them, including things like CarPlay, where you have to pay for an upgraded infotainment system in order to allow your phone to connect with it.

Nothing new though is it, just in the olden days we used to have to switch the features on in the factory. Now we can switch them on in the dealership, or when you decide you only need heated seats for 4 months of the year.
The hardware for heated seats is fitted to thousands of cars in which customers haven't paid for it. (Even back in the late 90's you could activate it in some cars with a 20 quid length of harness and a pair of buttons at £40)

Corporate greed in action.
Sound business decision

There are pros to this as well. On some newer Volvos you can buy the base edition and just use a computer and a tutorial to enable all the fancy toys which are software-locked.

>Audi, like other manufacturers, build vars with some specifications already in. You can pay to unlock them for a
>month, 12 months or longer. They’ve had this for a few years.

Especially for features like navigation this makes some sense, there is already all the hardware for navigation because of eCall requirement but I really wouldn't want to pay 3000€ for Audi navigation when Carplay/Androida Auto alternatives work well. Although last summer on my rental car the Audi navigation worked better than Apple Maps in Germany and Austria, it had more up to date traffic information and routing options to avoid Stau.

For people playing for features like themes and mood lights colours I really have no words

Interesting this. I recently had a BMW 4 series. When i tried to use one of the functions (adaptive lights) it basically flashed up and said i had to pair my phone and pay for a subscription (about 150 quid if i remember).

I also noticed that in my recent insurance policy they said that they would not cover if the car had been updated outside of the manufacturers software or any other OTA updates!

i smugly walked back to my 13 year old car thinking i ws glad i had an old motor, only to be locked out by the keyless entry.... this stuff isnt new.

reeksy
Full Member

I don’t see how that’s different to the old days of paying extra for electric windows, A/C, CD player?

I remember my Dad ordered a C-Class back in 2000-ish and didn’t choose the 6-CD player, but it came with one anyway, presumably because “everybody” paid the extra so they just fitted them regardless.

Well the difference is you now have to pay for the item in perpetuity instead of once. Lovely little passive income stream for Audi.

Wish they would legislate this crap out of existence. Aside from being anti-consumer, it encourages the wasteful fitting of parts which may never even be used yet must still be manufactured and carried around for the entire life of the car.

If people kept their current car until it 'actually' needed replacing, rather than the three or four years until they just fancy another one and saw cars as a domestic appliance rather than a some kind of road-going-status affirming-spaceship, they could delay any of these issues by a good 10-15 years, save a good deal of cash, and the planet would be reasonably chuffed too.

"Forgetting the commercial desire to keep sell lots of cars for a minute and think about the consequences of slowing the car market – less evolution and development as the sales cycles lengthen and lots of tech that is 10-20 years behind what is happening outside of the car."

That's why I said "from an environmental point of view" as surely that would be good news environmentally?

less evolution and development

Less evolution and development of what, heated steering wheels? Keyless entry? F----g blinding LED lights? I think we'll cope

We will own nothing.

Yet more justification for manufacturers to control and monitor and continue earning from vehicles long after they normally would. What happens when an owner down the line wants a feature and hacks the car, they have no contract or agreement with Audi, but perhaps we're moving to a model where no-one ever owns the car, simply the right to use it.

It's my car and I will do as I like with it. I'd say I'll stick to the older stuff, but we all know it's good business for the government to legislate against older vehicles under the pretence of being more green.

Well the difference is you now have to pay for the item in perpetuity instead of once. Lovely little passive income stream for Audi.

People sort of do this now if they have a loan or lease. Plus interest.

Will be interesting to see if these subscriptions will have an end date. Can't see car companies still running the service 15 years down the line. Will all the options default to 'enabled'?

There are pros to this as well. On some newer Volvos you can buy the base edition and just use a computer and a tutorial to enable all the fancy toys which are software-locked.

Careful doing this.

Some of the "fancy toys" have dependencies to and from other systems.

I don’t see how that’s different to the old days of paying extra for electric windows, A/C, CD player?

Jamze

People sort of do this now if they have a loan or lease. Plus interest.

Not quite, because normally if you specify an option it's permanently enabled and the car is worth more at the end of the term. Not the case if you subscribe to the feature. You've paid to have the feature, but the car has gained no value from you doing so.

BMW still seem to be offering subs. £10/month for auto high beam, for example. Guess it's for cars built in that period.

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/cp/connected-drive

I'd call it what it is. Its not a subscription service, its ransomware.

You've already paid for the items as it obviously costed into the build, the replacement parts if damaged, servicing and any insurance payments.

The car company is now holding those parts hostage until you pay the ransom.

£10/month for auto high beam, for example.

Who the actual flip would pay for that? Fool, money, etc

How come I’m still paying for “traffic information” then?

Jesus you even use the BMW built in nav for navigation? its crap compared to any offering from google etc. Just use car play or your phone !

Who the actual flip would pay for that? Fool, money, etc

To be fair auto dimming, auto moving headlights is the best thing on my Merc, makes night time driving so much easier. Main beam on full all the time and it just sorts it out and the lights follow the bends in roads.

its almost entertainment in itself watching the headlights dip in sections, its like a mini light show.

If I'm leasing it then it's their ball.

If I'm buying it then it's mine.

At the end of manufacturer support these features should be enabled as a bare minimum however as a general principle the subscription model stinks, it's just pure greed.

See also Instant Ink hardware subscriptions.

To clarify that's subscriptions for hardware you already own I'm talking about.

To clarify that’s subscriptions for hardware you already own I’m talking about.

Most Tesla's and a lot of other brands increasingly come with all the kit in the car for the top spec.

The only difference is the top spec has it all enabled, cheap ones dont.,

Cool. As far as I'm concerned if I buy something I'm buying the package and own everything within it.

Tesla is hardly the poster boy for pro-consumer practices, just look at their shocking anti-repair policies.

I'd be surprised if this is going to fly for long once the EU catches up.

I wish I could activate adaptive cruise control a.k.a. Distronic Plus in my Mercedes.  I love having it in my other car.  In some later models they did indeed include all the hardware on all cars, you can retro-enable it with some new buttons and a software update for a few hundred quid; but you can't add it to mine realistically.

Who the actual flip would pay for that? Fool, money, etc

Me, although not £10/mo.  It's fantastic. When I learned to drive in the mid 90s I wished cars had it, now mine finally do!

I imagine there are rooms full of car execs reviewing the various threads on the web about this and frantically taking notes.

"Well if they'd pay for auto-high beam lights that don't even work satisfactorily, surely they'd pay a few pounds a month for access to the glovebox, and what about the boot? We could call it the 'gran-touring pack'. Surely the fast setting on the windscreen wipers Extreme Weather Pro pack is worth £1.49/month of anybody's money! What about being able to choose your own radio station the B&O Media Pro DJ pack? The possibilities are endless!"

In principle I think this subscription model is fine if...

- the initial cost of the car fitted with all the option hardware, but with the options disabled is the same as an unoptioned car would have been - but how can you check/confirm this when there is no actual unoptioned car to compare to
- They provide a purchase for the life of the car option that means the option is enabled forever - including for the next owner, in addition to monthly/yearly etc subs.

If the above is the case, then its no different to just paying for the optional extra when you spec the new car, but with the added benefit that you can choose to add something later if you decide you want it, or future owners can do the same.

It could actually be beneficial for a lot of users, due to VED based on list price, plus benefit in kind on list price, plus the fact that a lot of new cars are just leased for a couple of years and normally any extras need to be fully paid for over the period of the lease.

Conversely and far more likely of course is that any options ‘released’ will be switched off when the car changes hands leading to future revenue streams as the new owner has to pay full price for secondhand parts.

Any hardware that required a subscription, or worse an active manufacturer run server, to work is a big worry. It's feasible that your car could last longer than the company you bought it from... or even more likely that the brand changes hands and priorities and drops support for your old car and its functions that rely on an active unlock from them.

Exactly.

We have a brand new Guardzilla webcam on the scrap pile (I didn't buy it), company shut down and all services stopped. It's utterly useless.

I have similar concerns regarding any smart tech that relies on a remote middleman. It doesn't even need to be a result of bankruptcy, Sonos were damn close to doing it a few years back and Sony aren't shy about claiming sovereignty over PlayStation hardware.

Yet more enshitification.

This is apparently a VW:

https://twitter.com/NickGibbs/status/1768027471612404171

It's sort of been the case for ages though?

The difference between a Mini One and a Mini Cooper used to be jus the ECU, all the hardware was already there and capable, you just had to flash the chip.

Even most common rail diesel cars (and any petrol that used throttle-by-wire rather than a bowden cable to the inlet butterfly) even my crappy old Berlingo had all the hardware they needed to operate cruise control, all the option bought you was an expensive button/stalk and it being unlocked in the ECU.

The subscription part feels like a con, but the idea of the hardware already being there is decades old at least.

https://twitter.com/NickGibbs/status/1768027471612404171?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1768027471612404171%7Ctwgr%5Eb2e8cf15dfe342e31007e67d61b0be9f9bd6a9f5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsingletrackworld.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic%2Ffirst-bmw-now-audi-enforcing-subscription-services%2F

To be fair if you can devise a lighting scheme that conveys the mood "I'd rather be anywhere else than stuck in another traffic jam" then you're a genius and deserve all the riches. If it's just some red LED's when you press a sport button then what are you an 11 year olds gaming PC?

See also Instant Ink hardware subscriptions.

Naaa, that's brilliant.

For the first time in 2 decades manufacturers actually have a vested interest in the printer actually printing.

I'm always surprised every time it just works, I'm so used to communication errors, blocked nozzles, alignment issues, etc that it just amazes me when a legible sheet of paper comes out first time when I press print! Well worth the £1.99 a month it costs 😂