[Closed] Firing staff

you can't fire him based on speculation, pretty sure he'll have you for that.

And stop buying poncy overpriced Mellow Birds, you're not fooling anyone

SRS

I'm a manager too. 😉 😈

Blimey, I drank half a bottle of my dad's whiskey once when I was at school. He didn't sack me, he kept me on but gave me a bollocking and I had to buy another bottle of whiskey.

Is there anything else we should know about apart from the chocolates, acid and your inexperience at managing people?

Sad fact is that you can be fired for pretty much anything if you've accrued less than two years' continuous employment.

That doesn't mean that I agree with the OP's actions though. The problem could be solved with a very informal chat and an agreement for the employee to return the coffee, chocolate and the £19 float by the end of the day and provided that there's no repeat of the scallying then nothing else need be said.

If the employee is rubbish at their job, or insubordinate then there's justifiable grounds for sacking.

Actually, re-read page 2, didn't notice this:

that would be because I have never had to manage anybody before. last job there were 2 of us and we worked together and had mutual respect. I did the planning , he did the execution (s) of the plan, for 16 years.
new job is 4 months old and I have no experience in managing a group of lower grade manual workers.

and

idiot#2

You perhaps need to look at what you're doing wrong, you're not coming across well, in fact, it almost sounds like you're just desperate to fire someone because you can. You've mentioned here that you haven't trained him properly so this could all turn back round on you very quickly

4 months in

Are you under scrutiny for the acid incident and lashing out?

Not judging at all, sounds like you've moved into a situation your not 100% comfortable with. Maybe talk to your manager honestly, they're presumably a human being too.( though it must be said, some aren't)

so it would appear its ok for me to come to your office or prison ( irony alert ) steal your house keys from your desk drawer. Drive round to your house , use your keys to enter your house. The drink your coffee , make a sandwich from your fridge, drive back to your office, replace key and its all hunky dory.
I dont want to fire the lad . He can do good work. There are trust issues and Im sorry but going into my locker simply isnt on.
we dont have a Hr dept , and i dont have really have a manager either.

stabiliseer, Nope not at all I was on holiday when it happened .

You have bigger management problems than sweets disappearing. You clearly don't have control of the chemicals you use because either you have a system in place but haven't ensured it is followed, or you don't have a system in place at all. In my world, either would be a serious management failing. If you don't know how to set this up and operate it, then your boss is culpable too.

The advice to involve HR is good, and you need to ask for support and traning yourself.

so it would appear its ok for me to come to your office or prison ( irony alert ) steal your house keys from your desk drawer. Drive round to your house , use your keys to enter your house. The drink your coffee , make a sandwich from your fridge, drive back to your office, replace key and its all hunky dory.

That's not what happened at all now is it. You think, as there's no proof, he had some chocs and someone helped themselves to petty cash. You have no proof.

^ Genuinely, look at PJM1974's post. It's spot on and you'd do well to try that tact first.

Either a troll, or you are indeed David Brent.

You're sort of bouncing between extremes of poor management, stmind.

Miles too soft, as you're letting this wee beaut raid your personal chocolate cache with impugnity - should have thrown a right bollocking into him there as a minimum (would be an off-the-clock straightener in other lines of work, ie Ton's). Then having this fester you're going way OTT and looking to insta-fire him on dubious grounds, when it's not even clear there's a performance issue.

Need to take a step back and steer a steadier course - make your mind up about the guy absent the chocolate nonsense (get some advice from your boss if that's feasible). Don't be too hard on yourself, either (despite the pish-taking here) - managing folk is hard and getting good at it means a lot of mistakes along the way.

Also don't leave the key for your drawer where anybody can get it. What do you expect will happen?

I think the OP is getting an unfairly harsh time. It's political correctness gone mad.

Don't list to Jambalaya there's more reasons than discrimination. Whistling Blowing for one which is kind of what this is.

whats the difference then, once you decide to take a set of keys and open up a locker that does not belong to you , where do you think that course of action is going?

you can't fire him based on speculation, pretty sure he'll have you for that.

And stop buying poncy overpriced Mellow Birds, you're not fooling anyone

Do food manufacturers follow GMP/GDP regs?

Doesn't matter if it wouldn't have really affected the product, it should still be a non-conformance that gets people asking questions about why it happened, because it could have affected the batch. Small deviations beg questions in regards to other procedures as well - we'd have the MHRA/FDA right up our arses for that, if it wasn't properly dealt with.

What grade was the acid?

Also "food safe" doesn't mean that much. I'm guessing it means that it's been manufactured to a spec fit for human consumption, what grade was it? By entering the wrong area, was there any way it could have been added in the incorrect quantities? Are there checks and balances to make sure people are going to notice this, before they decide to pour half a litre of whatever into a brewing vat?

Our facilities place is run by a bunch of ex squaddies, who'd have a ****ing fit if something like this ever happened. But it wouldn't happen in the first place because of that attitude, they're used to dealing with all sorts of nasty stuff in a responsible manner.

I don't get it. What aspect of this is Whistling Blowing?

Yeah I read one of his posts wrong. 😳

whats the difference then, once you decide to take a set of keys and open up a locker that does not belong to you , where do you think that course of action is going?

"It was a personal locker? I wasn't informed I thought it's just where we kept the staff chocolates"

Stealing is bad but you need to prove it v

...you've come on her asking for advice of which there has been some excellent stuff said, but you're moaning about trust issues etc, you've not listened to a word that's been said or even acknowledged any of the excellent advice given - even from someone who underwrites employment law !

Take some critism like a professional would - thats management !

Talk to the guy that's good management and talk to the owners or whoever is senior to you and ask for training

...or just be a typical **** manager that everyone thinks is a c nut

Good luck

Is this a new take on victim blaming 😉

Yeah I read one of his posts wrong.

A good friend of mine created, grew, ran then sold a business for £50m. He gave me the following advice

"Hire slowly, fire quickly"

Getting the right people is tough. The wrong people cost a business grreatly and absorb management time both of which hold a company back.

Management isn't easy. In fact it's bloody hard. There are plenty of mediocre bosses around, but very few great ones. I've been lucky enough to have plenty of experience to know the difference.

Thirteen years ago, I had to manage a spoiled sixteen year old girl, who's builder daddy played golf with my senior boss. She had me by the balls and she knew it, right up until she threw a hissy fit at me in the middle of an open-plan office and called me a c*** when I asked her to return a client's phone call. I could have and should have marched her out of the door there and then, instead I didn't and the problem got worse. It eventually resolved itself (and I kid you not) when she passed her driving test and drove shitfaced through someone's living room. Aside from superficial injury, she was physically fine, but the PTSD ensured she was too badly shaken to work and her resignation was accepted as by this time she'd brought the firm into disrepute.

Case two involved a young lad who was working for a newly promoted twenty-something with plenty of banter, but no empathy, guile or people skills. His subordinate was a reasonably bright lad, destined for better things, but the boss in question simply did not inspire any respect or invest any confidence whatsoever. Of course, the young lad quickly became "a problem", was regularly set up to fail so he bid his time and eventually walked, having compiled enough evidence to ensure his soon to be ex-boss was dropped in the shit and subject to a disciplinary. Oh, that lad was me.

Sometimes a quiet word works wonders, if the employee is genuinely on the fiddle and taking the mick, then set clear boundaries and ensure that they know exactly where the line is.

Stolen the coffee that was bought especially for me, and put it in his own little pot and replaced with nasty stale Nescafe decaf, as if i wouldnt notice Azzuro Intenso had changed size , colour and flavour.

Sack that lad already and buy some decent coffee!

Joking aside get a grip and sit the lad down, tell him to stop being an arse as petty shit like this might get him fired.

If that conversation had already taken place and this continued I guarantee you anyone here with any management experience would think very differently about your original post.

First off OP, fair play for coming on here and posting - it shows that you are aware of your lack of experience and that is a good start. In addition, you are open about this lack of experience and that is also a positive.

There are several experienced managers giving you advice based on their likely successes [b][i][u]and[/b][/i][/u] likely mistakes too. Ignore this at you peril. As a manager of some experience, I would suggest that one of my best bits of advice is listen to voices of experience, you will learn so much from them. In summary, they are telling you this: -
1. Legalities aside of your ability to sack him - he doesn't seem to have been managed, so this may be unfair
2. Despite your conviction, the evidence is circumstantial regarding theft
3. Theft is wrong - no one disagrees, but you have let this go to far before proposing drastic action
4. Address this inaction now with an informal warning and monitor his behaviour going forward and take more formal action - including proper investigation if needed

Drac, PJM1974 and Broess have said it well. Take the time to read it slowly and deliberately tomorrow. Imagine they are telling someone else not you and you will likely see it is good advice.

All the best in managing this .

J

2. Despite your conviction, the evidence is circumstantial regarding theft

plus 1 and all the rest telling you

no evidence all circumstantial

Tom_W1987 - Food manufacturing do follow GMP/GDP, but it's a few rungs down from pharma/biotech.

Then you get to cosmetics....

You do realise that kind of petty theft is "dominance issues". He may as well be shitting in your slippers !!

Well hope you did read the advice, moving straight to sacking is a big leap. Especially with no real evidence. If you don't have the balls to ask him whats been going on then you should probably be the one thinking of your future as a manager.

new job is 4 months old and I have no experience in managing a group of lower grade manual workers.

Is the OPs story a metaphor for something else, like the allotment thread?

A friend of mine did actually get sacked for allegedly strealing a bag of crisps. Evidence was sketchy to say the least and ultimately they were using it as an excuse to get rid of him.

I helped him through the tribunal process - it cost the company a few grand to settle before it went too far.

How many threads are you going to start about someone "stealing" your miniature Snickers?

To me it's like its some sort of joke to him, getting one over and he doesn't respect you OP. He clearly thinks it's humour however do you have ANY concrete proof?

Would you have a 100% case if he felt aggrevied and took you to tribunal?

Sit him down, formal warning then any transgressions move the process swiftly on. People who muckup tend to have a habit.

However without firm proof your leaving yourself open.

Sacking someone because you thought they ate your sweets isn't enough.

hora +1

miniature Snickers?

Sometimes, I like to eat fun size Mars bars and pretend i'm a giant.
I also like to eat king size Mars bars and pretend i'm a dwarf.

When I eat the tiny ones out of a box of Celebrations I pretend to be dinosaur.

Will I get sacked?

Assuming this isn't a premature and unfunny April Fools... yes the lad's behaviour isn't acceptable and yes he should know that without being told but as a manager and an adult you should have taken the time to explain this to him and warn him about it if necessary.

It sounds like you don't actually want any management responsibility (although if you're new in the role wasn't that part of what you'd agree to take on?) but that's still no reason to potentially **** up someone's life over what are pretty trivial acts.

Once upon of time you could just have had him hanged for it.Or at least transported to Australia. I miss those days.

Take on the Lad, take on the challenge and manage him.

Anyone can fire. It's much harder to change, manage and develop someone.

Bloody sweets. Sod the coffee, that is slightly funny.

In my first job at Woolworths head office I thought my boss was drinking too much coffee, she looked wrecked. So I started making her decaff without her knowing, she didn't spot it and I think she looked better for it. I told her when my feet were firmly under the table 😀

Monday morning present him with a tub of Celebration s explain they are for him and explain how the future works. Explain about trust and what you expect, does he like his job?

No-one is expecting you to just rolover and take it, but perhaps a Kinder approach to your staff would work better.

No-one is expecting you to just rolover and take it, but perhaps a Kinder approach to your staff would work better.

Aye, it's bound tae. 🙂

Sacking someone because you thought they ate your sweets is[s]n't enough[/s] a bit sad.

[i]Take on the Lad, take on the challenge and manage him.

Anyone can fire. It's much harder to change, manage and develop someone. [/i]

[through gritted teeth]

Hora's talking a lot of sense there.

[/through gritted teeth]

I'm with the rest, firing someone out the blue for a couple of quid's worth of chocolate sounds like you don't actually want to deal with a problem, just make it go away.

Firing somebody for petty theft is a bit extreme.

Sounds like he just doesn't know how to behave in the workplace. Or in public sector speak - he is lacking in the Impact on Others and Self Awareness competencies.

Some people grow up in terrible homes, maybe nobody ever told him this was wrong. Tell him exactly why what he is doing is stealing, and why that is wrong, and the potential consequences. Use small words.

Good luck !

even from someone who underwrites employment law !

Would you take engineering advice from someone that insures cars?

What would Alan Sugar do?

What would Alan Sugar do?

Excellent advice.
Phone him at 5:30 a.m, have him meet you at 5.40a.m in a bizarre location ,Sit the lad down, make a face like Sid James bawbag, patronize the boy with some shit puns and some stories about how rich you are, point it him in a vaguely threatening manner to build a bit of dramatic tension , give him a final warning and then send him on a "treat experience".

That should do it.

I suspect the OP's problem is going to be lack of evidence.

My advice is get yourself some CCTV and a box of Ferrero Rocher and wait for the bee to come to the honey.

What would Alan Sugar do?

April fools day joke, I assume

STM - you're forgetting the crucial singletrackworld liberal minded woolly life is rainbows and unicorns mentality... Where you can be stolen from and give the culprit a big smile and hug them for having a harder life than you..it is therefore you who is to blame... Not doing a simple job properly is the fault of training and therefore the manager's fault.
It's not a world I've lived in either.

[quote=bails said]What would Alan Sugar do?
Sack him by email?

He'd never get it 🙂

Dez

hiring and firing costs money and management time for an issue that could be dealt with with a 2 minute conversation.

No unicorns were harmed in the drafting of this rebuttal.

There's a significant piece of evidence* the OP isn't telling us...

Did he leave the discarded sweetie wrappers in the container?

Yes ... sacking too good for him... give him death by a thousand cuts

No ... He's clearly not all bad and should be given a chance

Unlike me, who takes great delight in leaving the wrappers to pee off the Mrs/MiL 😈

*apart from the fact that the OP got he's got sod all in the way of evidence anyway

It's not a world I've lived in either.

Well, that world may well be dead and buried now - if you look at a lot of recent legal changes re discrimination and generally trying to prevent abuse of power you may find that that old world is largely being rejected.

Emotional intelligence is increasingly valued in organisations - lack of it has a distinct habit of hitting the bottom line as productivity drops when motivated employees lose energy and the best employees leave for an employer who has the sense to treat them like a human being. Stress from lousy management imposed a massive cost on the NHS and welfare costs at a time when we can least afford it.

The Millennials appear (rightly or wrongly) to be focussing on this so this change will come about whether you like it or not.

Take it from me, being sacked on the basis of someone else's assumption that you've done something wrong or simply and inadvertently breached their values will do enormous damage to that individual, their self-confidence, career progression and lifetime earnings... being a manager and the power and authority you're given is a great responsibility, not something to be abused.

btw I'm a dirty right-wing capitalist, having worked in financial services marketing for 20 years, not some wet behind the ears liberal 🙂

Tribunal. He CANNOT tale you to an employment tribuneral over his sacking, assuming it comes to that.

Take it from me, being sacked on the basis of someone else's assumption that you've done something wrong or simply and inadvertently breached their values will do enormous damage to that individual, their self-confidence, career progression and lifetime earnings... being a manager and the power and authority you're given is a great responsibility, not something to be abused.

+1

And sacking someone over a tin of sweets is about as pathetic as it gets.

Sweets lying about - fair game. Any property stolen from a locked locker - sacking is deserved.

I worked in a place once where there was a petty thief. I had a tape stolen out my locker. Other stuff including cash was stolen. Nothing of great value but theft is theft. Never found out who it was and it left a bad taste about an otherwise good place with only 16 or 20 people working there.

There are those who are bemoaning the liberal attitudes that prevent a manager from escorting a suspected miscreant off site and into unemployment would do well to consider that proper procedure is intended to guarantee fairness.

Putting an employee into a situation where they are lined up to fail and therefore be subject to a disciplinary isn't cricket, neither is disciplining an employee who hasn't been properly trained. I've had conversations with employers who've expressed dismay at the regulations for not being able to constructively dismiss an employee in her eighth month of pregnancy who "wasn't pulling her weight". I've also been asked to find a reason to find fault with someone who had their card marked because they lodged a formal complaint about a cramped and dangerous workplace.

Any employee is allowed reasonable notice of a pending investigation and is allowed to nominate representation at a subsequent meeting. You wouldn't think a Kangaroo Court to be fair, would you?

On the flipside, following proper procedure protects the employer from subsequent legal action and will document that the manager responsible for initiating the disciplinary has done so for legitimate reasons. I've known several employers who've fired or taken other disciplinary action against an employee for very good reasons, but due to a failure to follow best practice have left themselves wide open to subsequent action.

While you may well get away with "It's not working out, pack your things and go, we'll pay you to the end of the week", it may also come back to bite you on the arse in six months time.

Most places i've worked it's been pretty explicit.

Open someone elses locker without express permission from the owner (maybe they left a tin of sweets for you or something).
Alternatively you've needed security, and management, and the union AND the owner in attendance (or a combination of them).

Don't meet either of these requirements, cheerio. See you at tribunal, if you can find a lawyer or union daft enough to support you.

If only the OP had some actual proof.

Take it from me, being sacked on the basis of someone else's assumption that you've done something wrong or simply and inadvertently breached their values will do enormous damage to that individual, their self-confidence, career progression and lifetime earnings... being a manager and the power and authority you're given is a great responsibility, not something to be abused

Heartbreaking

btw I'm a dirty right-wing capitalist, having worked in financial services marketing for 20 years, not some wet behind the ears liberal

I am a senior Harpoonist on a Japanese whaler, you seem like a bit of a neolib to me 😉

Don't listen to these bleaters. Far from over-reacting, you're not being tough enough. How is he supposed to learn.

He's eaten your mini eggs. He must feel the full force of your vengeful wrath!

Kill him and bury his body in a shallow grave on the moors

im sure the standard STW solution for this contains PICOLAX

I struggle with long sentences, but it would appear that he's stolen the apostrophe key off your keyboard...

Sack the thieving little b*****d!

Many years ago a bloke on my Dad's building site used to nick the slice of chocolate cake my mum used to bake - from his lunchbox.

So one day my dad got my mum to make a cake with Ex-Lax. The guy nicked the cake as usual but ended up in a bad way.

A few days later my mum was washing up and gave an almighty scream from the kitchen whilst doing the washing up. She'd opened the lunchbox to wash it. Someone had put a live mouse in the empty lunchbox!

You're not actually taking responsibility for him at all if you sack him for minor things which breach your personal values - that's more like victimising him than taking responsibility for it yourself.

Taking responsibility would be treating him like an adult and having a face to face chat with him about all the issues and giving him right to reply - and listening to it properly, without judgement and without prejudice. And I mean listen - say absolutely nothing whilst he talks...

Show him some leadership and you may find him an awesome employee. Sack him and you teach him that managers will use their power irresponsibly, which will become his long term problem he's likely to carry around for years and hold his career back.

I'm afraid it shows that you lack management experience but I'll give you this - you've thought enough about it to come on here and engage with those who've criticised you for your approach. That suggests you are actually thinking about the negative consequences for this lad of your actions - do more of that before you sack him please.

Oh, and have a word with your employer about giving you some management training. I've seen so many weak managers over the years wreck people's work lives because the manager was given line management responsibility without any training... so please make this your employer's responsibility to support you too.

Good luck... I'm sure this isn't pleasant

Amen.

I've seen so many weak managers over the years wreck people's work lives because the manager was given line management responsibility without any training...

^ Definitely this. I could easily flood this thread with personal experiences where this has happened, by individuals who aren't in themselves necessarily evil or malevolent, but their subsequent actions have destroyed morale, productivity and ultimately damaged the reputation of their employer. Of course, by that time it's always some other buggers' fault.

neither is disciplining an employee who hasn't been properly trained.

How much training is needed to know that theft from a locked locker is wrong?

How much training is needed to know that theft from a locked locker is wrong?

I was talking in a general sense. If you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd have understood quite plainly that the OP has no actual proof that the employee in question was thieving from a locker, other than circumstantial evidence.

No proof apart from evidence? 😀

No proof apart from evidence

evidence of theft =/= evidence that [i]he [/i]stole.

So? Has this lad been awarded the DCM* yet?

*Don't Come Monday

I used to share an office with some old stagers. I was frequently out of the office and while I was out one of the older geezers used to pinch my tea bags.

To get around this, I locked them in a drawer.

True Story.

ScottChegg used to share an office with some old stagers. He was frequently out of the office and while he was out one of the older geezers used to pinch his tea bags.

To get around this, he locked them in a drawer.

ScottChegg used to share an office with some old stagers. He was frequently out of the office and while he was out one of the older geezers used to knob his teacup.

True Story.

Wwaswas you're my wife now [img] [/img]

I'm with Binners, he's my partner but also my lover

Percypanther makes I laugh - true story. 🙂

while I was out one of the older geezers used to pinch my tea bags.

To get around this, I locked them in a drawer.

Harsh. When did you let the old geezers back out again?

My wallet lives in my locker , so where does it end?

Sorry, I'm just weighing in now, so this may have been covered, BUT...

I have indulged in other people's chocolates before, and even pilfered some coffee I know didn't belong to me, but it wouldn't even dawn on me to look at someone else's wallet, never mind take something from it!

There may be a principle somewhere in there, but surely it can't be that a thief is a thief. I suspect that most people have a built-in line in their head between frivolous 'theft' and actual, substantial theft.

I can see having a chat with the poor guy - maybe even giving him a warning (although I would think even that is too strong) - but firing him?!? Goodness, I'm not sure I would want to work for you!

This thread contains all kinds of win. I'd doctor some sweets, make everyone but the lad aware and await results .... then fire him.

You could fire him out of a cannon?

STM, what he has done is totally wrong and its certainly NOT on to take someones keys to help yourself. You seem pretty sure that it's him thats carrying out the thieving, but you really need to have cast iron proof, not just suspicions.
However, you need to follow due process in order to protect both yourself AND your employer from this person filing for unfair dismissal etc. There needs to be verbal warnings (with a representative of the person accused), written warnings and final warnings before you can bin someone.
There is good advice given by others in the thread please take it!

Kill him and bury his body in a shallow grave on the moors

no no no....you must dissolve his dead body with the acid at work!

I'm with Binners, he's my partner but also my lover

i know what these 2 look like....now thats an image i cant get out of my head...ohhhh the trauma!!