[Closed] Firing staff

There are those who are bemoaning the liberal attitudes that prevent a manager from escorting a suspected miscreant off site and into unemployment would do well to consider that proper procedure is intended to guarantee fairness.

Putting an employee into a situation where they are lined up to fail and therefore be subject to a disciplinary isn't cricket, neither is disciplining an employee who hasn't been properly trained. I've had conversations with employers who've expressed dismay at the regulations for not being able to constructively dismiss an employee in her eighth month of pregnancy who "wasn't pulling her weight". I've also been asked to find a reason to find fault with someone who had their card marked because they lodged a formal complaint about a cramped and dangerous workplace.

Any employee is allowed reasonable notice of a pending investigation and is allowed to nominate representation at a subsequent meeting. You wouldn't think a Kangaroo Court to be fair, would you?

On the flipside, following proper procedure protects the employer from subsequent legal action and will document that the manager responsible for initiating the disciplinary has done so for legitimate reasons. I've known several employers who've fired or taken other disciplinary action against an employee for very good reasons, but due to a failure to follow best practice have left themselves wide open to subsequent action.

While you may well get away with "It's not working out, pack your things and go, we'll pay you to the end of the week", it may also come back to bite you on the arse in six months time.

Most places i've worked it's been pretty explicit.

Open someone elses locker without express permission from the owner (maybe they left a tin of sweets for you or something).
Alternatively you've needed security, and management, and the union AND the owner in attendance (or a combination of them).

Don't meet either of these requirements, cheerio. See you at tribunal, if you can find a lawyer or union daft enough to support you.

If only the OP had some actual proof.

Take it from me, being sacked on the basis of someone else's assumption that you've done something wrong or simply and inadvertently breached their values will do enormous damage to that individual, their self-confidence, career progression and lifetime earnings... being a manager and the power and authority you're given is a great responsibility, not something to be abused

Heartbreaking

btw I'm a dirty right-wing capitalist, having worked in financial services marketing for 20 years, not some wet behind the ears liberal

I am a senior Harpoonist on a Japanese whaler, you seem like a bit of a neolib to me 😉

Don't listen to these bleaters. Far from over-reacting, you're not being tough enough. How is he supposed to learn.

He's eaten your mini eggs. He must feel the full force of your vengeful wrath!

Kill him and bury his body in a shallow grave on the moors

im sure the standard STW solution for this contains PICOLAX

I struggle with long sentences, but it would appear that he's stolen the apostrophe key off your keyboard...

Sack the thieving little b*****d!

Many years ago a bloke on my Dad's building site used to nick the slice of chocolate cake my mum used to bake - from his lunchbox.

So one day my dad got my mum to make a cake with Ex-Lax. The guy nicked the cake as usual but ended up in a bad way.

A few days later my mum was washing up and gave an almighty scream from the kitchen whilst doing the washing up. She'd opened the lunchbox to wash it. Someone had put a live mouse in the empty lunchbox!

You're not actually taking responsibility for him at all if you sack him for minor things which breach your personal values - that's more like victimising him than taking responsibility for it yourself.

Taking responsibility would be treating him like an adult and having a face to face chat with him about all the issues and giving him right to reply - and listening to it properly, without judgement and without prejudice. And I mean listen - say absolutely nothing whilst he talks...

Show him some leadership and you may find him an awesome employee. Sack him and you teach him that managers will use their power irresponsibly, which will become his long term problem he's likely to carry around for years and hold his career back.

I'm afraid it shows that you lack management experience but I'll give you this - you've thought enough about it to come on here and engage with those who've criticised you for your approach. That suggests you are actually thinking about the negative consequences for this lad of your actions - do more of that before you sack him please.

Oh, and have a word with your employer about giving you some management training. I've seen so many weak managers over the years wreck people's work lives because the manager was given line management responsibility without any training... so please make this your employer's responsibility to support you too.

Good luck... I'm sure this isn't pleasant

Amen.

I've seen so many weak managers over the years wreck people's work lives because the manager was given line management responsibility without any training...

^ Definitely this. I could easily flood this thread with personal experiences where this has happened, by individuals who aren't in themselves necessarily evil or malevolent, but their subsequent actions have destroyed morale, productivity and ultimately damaged the reputation of their employer. Of course, by that time it's always some other buggers' fault.

neither is disciplining an employee who hasn't been properly trained.

How much training is needed to know that theft from a locked locker is wrong?

How much training is needed to know that theft from a locked locker is wrong?

I was talking in a general sense. If you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd have understood quite plainly that the OP has no actual proof that the employee in question was thieving from a locker, other than circumstantial evidence.

No proof apart from evidence? 😀

No proof apart from evidence

evidence of theft =/= evidence that [i]he [/i]stole.

So? Has this lad been awarded the DCM* yet?

*Don't Come Monday

I used to share an office with some old stagers. I was frequently out of the office and while I was out one of the older geezers used to pinch my tea bags.

To get around this, I locked them in a drawer.

True Story.

ScottChegg used to share an office with some old stagers. He was frequently out of the office and while he was out one of the older geezers used to pinch his tea bags.

To get around this, he locked them in a drawer.

ScottChegg used to share an office with some old stagers. He was frequently out of the office and while he was out one of the older geezers used to knob his teacup.

True Story.

Wwaswas you're my wife now [img] [/img]

I'm with Binners, he's my partner but also my lover

Percypanther makes I laugh - true story. 🙂

while I was out one of the older geezers used to pinch my tea bags.

To get around this, I locked them in a drawer.

Harsh. When did you let the old geezers back out again?

My wallet lives in my locker , so where does it end?

Sorry, I'm just weighing in now, so this may have been covered, BUT...

I have indulged in other people's chocolates before, and even pilfered some coffee I know didn't belong to me, but it wouldn't even dawn on me to look at someone else's wallet, never mind take something from it!

There may be a principle somewhere in there, but surely it can't be that a thief is a thief. I suspect that most people have a built-in line in their head between frivolous 'theft' and actual, substantial theft.

I can see having a chat with the poor guy - maybe even giving him a warning (although I would think even that is too strong) - but firing him?!? Goodness, I'm not sure I would want to work for you!

This thread contains all kinds of win. I'd doctor some sweets, make everyone but the lad aware and await results .... then fire him.

You could fire him out of a cannon?

STM, what he has done is totally wrong and its certainly NOT on to take someones keys to help yourself. You seem pretty sure that it's him thats carrying out the thieving, but you really need to have cast iron proof, not just suspicions.
However, you need to follow due process in order to protect both yourself AND your employer from this person filing for unfair dismissal etc. There needs to be verbal warnings (with a representative of the person accused), written warnings and final warnings before you can bin someone.
There is good advice given by others in the thread please take it!

Kill him and bury his body in a shallow grave on the moors

no no no....you must dissolve his dead body with the acid at work!

I'm with Binners, he's my partner but also my lover

i know what these 2 look like....now thats an image i cant get out of my head...ohhhh the trauma!!

Five pages and no mention of shoes, bombers, slats or pudding? Standards are slipping.

My two-penn'orth is what most others have said. I'd file pinching unguarded chocolate under 'annoying but everyone does it' (I wouldn't, because I'm not a dick, but I imagine it's pretty common). But breaking into a locker I'd consider more serious, and stealing from the petty cash is firmly in the P45 category to my mind.

But. You have no proof. Moreover, [i]you don't even know for sure yourself.[/i] Maybe one of his co-workers got sick of his petty larceny and decided to set him up by stealing the cash, knowing full well he'd get blamed for it?

Are they in a union?

We had a load of cash stolen from the tuck shop at work. As there was no proof of who took it, we just wrote it off as bad luck. No one was fired.

If he has only worked there for 11 months the OP could simply let him go as "not being suitable", he has no real employment rights. Internal processes not withstanding.

If he is certain that he went into somebodies locker by stealing the key, then that's a sackable offence in IMO. Don't think it's from the information WTF is actually going on? Very possible that if he's sacked then the rest of the team will be pissed off.

Dont forget STM brews beer, therefore he IS a god!

Hmm, I went to the trouble of bringing cake and biscuits in for everyone on this thread, but some thieving git has only gone and stolen them 😯

No, whoever it was, can they own up. They were next to the bog rolls, dishwasher tablets, petty cash tin and a big can of acid

If I were you, I'd ignore most of the 'advice' on this thread, and get some from someone who is actually knowledgeable in such matters, and legally qualified to give such advice. A barrister friend of ours, who specialises in employment law, would rip you to pieces if you even tried to sack this lad, based on the 'evidence' you have. One case she dealt with involved a lad who probably was a bit 'dodgy', but whose employers sacked him on the grounds he was 'stealing' (he put something through his staff account which had a nominal price assigned rather than an actual staff price, and he claimed he'd forgotten to chase it up. He had however informed his line manager of this, and they'd also forgotten. The 'theft' only came to light when the director went over the staff accounts and discovered the discrepancy. Of course, line manager etc denied any knowledge). 2 years ago and still ongoing. Almost definitely going to conclude in favour of the sacked lad. Company likely to pay all costs, plus compensation (and then I think a fine). Will result in company either going under or having to make drastic cuts, so several other jobs lost. All because they didn't do their homework. It wasn't theft. As for the 2-year rule; he'd worked for less than that. Employers have to give a reason for dismissal in al cases.

Another case involves a dismissal for gross misconduct which has now turned into a case against that company for discrimination and/or constructive dismissal. Looks like that company is going to be hit massively too.

TL;DR: Do your homework before you even think of sacking someone.

This chap has been given 5 pages, can't imagine that isn't sufficient back up.

A barrister friend of ours, who specialises in employment law, would rip you to pieces if you even tried to sack this lad, based on the 'evidence' you have.

Your barrister friend wouldn't get very far in this case.

He can just sack him if he wants he only has 11 months service.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed ]https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed[/url]

Qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal

You must have worked for your employer for a minimum period before you qualify for the right to claim unfair dismissal at a tribunal. If you’re classed as an employee and started your job:

on or after 6 April 2012 - the qualifying period is normally 2 years
before 6 April 2012 - the qualifying period is normally 1 year

"He can just sack him if he wants he only has 11 months service."

Not without giving a valid reason:

https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview

"If you’re dismissed, your employer must show they’ve:

a valid reason that they can justify
acted reasonably in the circumstances
They must also:

be consistent - eg not dismiss you for doing something that they let other employees do
have investigated the situation fully before dismissing you - eg if a complaint was made about you"

If you're going to dismiss someone for theft, you really, really need to be able to prove that they did commit that offence. Which doesn't seem to be the case here. The two year thing is only about bringing the case before an employment tribunal. You can bring a private case against an employer without any time constraint.

"This chap has been given 5 pages, can't imagine that isn't sufficient back up."

😆

There is another important element to this story that STM hasn't divulged.. not sure whether I should... 8)

There is another important element to this story that STM hasn't divulged

That its a metaphor for Israeli land grabs in Palestine?

+100000000 Laxative justice.

I would have bought OP chocolates to share at work.

To go through a drawer, then somebody's locker for anything? Fire him, plenty of people will take that 18K and be productive and honest.

To clarify a bit, because I got a bit confused myself ( 😳 ) !

If you're alleging a criminal offence, and you give that as a reason, then the employee has a case against you under some other section of employment law. In the case I mentioned earlier, there was an accusation of theft which was unsubstantiated, which was expressed as the reason for dismissal. I think it had something to do with the fact that the employer did not report this to police, as they are legally obliged to do (if you aware a crime has happened, you are legally obliged to inform the police, or risk being guilty of joint enterprise of whatever it's called), meaning that the reason for dismissal expressed put them in a very bad position.

There needs to be verbal warnings (with a representative of the person accused), written warnings and final warnings before you can bin someone.

what is gross misconduct?

LG: "It's a serious breach of contract and includes misconduct which in your opinion causes serious damage to your business, or irreparably breaks down trust and relationships - for example, if someone hits another employee or is stealing.

Not without giving a valid reason:

OK. "Not suitable for the job". You think that it's unfair?

As you are NOT entitled to claim unfair dismissal after 11 months, what could he do?

Qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal
You must have worked for your employer for a minimum period before you qualify for the right to claim unfair dismissal at a tribunal. If you’re classed as an employee and started your job:

on or after 6 April 2012 - the qualifying period is normally 2 years
before 6 April 2012 - the qualifying period is normally 1 year

"There is another important element to this story that STM hasn't divulged.. not sure whether I should.."

After five pages we deserve more....please.
We had chocolate cake today at work.
I snuck in a took a second piece when no one was there.fact.

If I were you, I'd ignore most of the 'advice' on this thread, and get some from someone who is actually knowledgeable in such matters

Most of the advice on here is the same as yours.

Gobuchul you want to copy and paste the rest of that law or just the part that makes you look right?

You know what
I wouldnt want any of you and your liberal , wrap it up in cotton wool , give me a hug , lets do some role play, benderisms working for me.
The irony of a prison guard advocating thats its perfectly OK to steal a locker key , enter a locker , remove posessions is somehow Ok morally as its all banter innit?. is lost on me .
Sorry , no . It fricken well isnt. Your parents should have taught you lot some respect for other peoples property.
Its not Ok to steal printer cartridges etc from your employer . When did theft from someone who tells you what to do at work become legit?
As for Emo management ..get lost.

I could fill the position really easily at very low cost if I had to.

However , As i am not manager of the month i forgot to check that he would be in work today , and it transpired he had a day booked off as holiday .

Brooes post was , in effect, the only one with any substance, and he will be given a bollocking and verbal warning and expalined to that it all stops right now. Last chance son . It also surfaced today that he somehow escaped a custodial sentance for theft, just got a suspended sentance.

Classic.

You need to separate the genuine issues with this guy from the stuff that just personally annoys you.

It's not ok to describe someone as a thief because they eat more than their fair share of celebrations.

I wouldnt want any of you and your liberal , wrap it up in cotton wool , give me a hug , lets do some role play, benderisms working for me.

U OK HUN?