[Closed] Feeling guilty I am not down in London protesting!

Yeah I was sposed to be going, but I've an obligation to fulfil for someone, so no go for me. 🙁

Estimated 200,000 people! And pretty chilled out according to BBC news. Good stuff. And good on Miliband for being down there too, in spite of apparent Tory objections to him speaking.

I was there man... I was there.
Buying shoes.
I bought some Poste ones in support of the fallen Royal Mail employees.

ye have to ask though when was the last time a protest changed anything? it's all well and good and makes people feel all fuzzy.. all it does is get the polis some overtime though..

Well the Poll Tax riots changed things, and some libraries have bin saved from closure recently, and Tianenmen Square focussed the World's attention on China's regime, and stuff has changed in Egypt, and and and...

Protests don't always lead to immediate change, but can influence future policy. I imagine the threat of action and possible civil unrest might temper this government's plans somewhat. if they know folk aren't happy, they'll think twice maybe before pressing on with their policies.

Protest against cuts fine.

Does that mean we are all happy if taxes go up to avoid cuts then?

You can't spend money that doesn't exist...

Not saying anyone is wring, but what is the workable and realistic alternative...

Well the Poll Tax riots changed things, and some libraries have bin saved from closure recently, and Tianenmen Square focussed the World's attention on China's regime, and stuff has changed in Egypt, and and and...

Protests don't always lead to immediate change, but can influence future policy. I imagine the threat of action and possible civil unrest might temper this government's plans somewhat. if they know folk aren't happy, they'll think twice maybe before pressing on with their policies.

I'm talking about the big protests there have been recently say last 10 years. iraq war, hmm that worked.. hundred of protests in support of palestine have done heehaw to change government policy, student protests don't seem to have done much... It's all too easy to ignore a peaceful protest that last a couple of hours and are stewarded by the police...

So you're saying we should riot?

So you're saying we should riot?

Does that mean we are all happy if taxes go up to avoid cuts then?

You can't spend money that doesn't exist

Well I think Civil Unrest is justifiable if a government act in an undemocratic manner, as this one is, so I'm with you there.

I agree that many protests in the UK are a bit 'tame' actually. but at least people are able to make their protests heard, which can influence others, and potentially affect voting patterns etc. so, not completely useless.

Fear not; I think we will see much larger scale protests and even unrest, before this shower of shite are done...

Actually rioting is probably not the only option. I was talking about this the other week, say for example glasgow, there's only so many ways in and out of it, if you had enough people it would be very easy to shut down the city centre indefinitely until demands were meet... Protesters these days seem to be a little soft in the head tbh..a bit of imagination is required. Money is the thing that talks in this world, so there's your starting point.

Well I think Civil Unrest is justifiable if a government act in an undemocratic manner, as this one is, so I'm with you there.

And the one before. And the one before that, etc.

A few of my colleagues went. I couldn't: been busy this weekend spending Mr Woppit's taxes on my OTT NHS pension (and occasionally taking care of our upset and suicidal tennagers.)

18 months ago when the private sector got hammered, and lots of people lost their jobs, there were no protests.

Now when it's the public sector's turn there are protests.

Yes, this is a sort of troll, but I've been there, lost my job, spent 9 months out while also becoming a father at the same time, so I think I've got a right to ask the question having lived through a difficult period.

Why is it this way? Why is it that public sector workers want to fight it while the private sector just get on with finding a new job?

Thats simple.

Private sector workers lost their jobs in 1's & 2's, tens and twentys with a few dozen here, a hundred there etc. Lots of small firms went to the wall (my old employer was one) but not many mega-sized except Woolies maybe.
In the public sector you have huge employers, Post Office, NHS, Local Authorities. All of these have union memberships in the hundreds of thousands, these are the ones who can mobilise.
Thanks to the draconian and repressive anti-union laws in the UK, the ones that the last LABOUR Govt did nothing to address, those who lose their jobs in small numbers are often powerless to protest. Even if they are unionised their union cannot help them.

Might it have something to do with the private sector essentially benefits private interests, whilst the Public sector is about public interests?

Like, if a private company fails, it affects people financially mainly, but if hospitals have funding cut, people's health is at stake?

Maybe a bit simplistic, but I'd say public interests are a tad more important than private ones. And holes left in the private sector can usually be filled in pretty quickly by someone else. This isn't the case with the public sector. A health centre or something closes down, it stays closed down.

Drop the 18 week NHS target for a start - the amount of extra money needed to meet it is bonkers.

And most (not all) do not NEED to be treated that quickly...

I find it quite ironic that a good many of the coppers there today probably feel exactly the same as the protesters about the cuts.

The private sector in general are so bloody selfish and don't demonstrate as long as they are alright jack. Dismiss unions as only for lefties and have been happy to reap the benefit whilst others have struggled

Many public sector workers are traditionally badly paid and only stayed where they were because they hoped to get a decent pension and some job security.
Everyone automatically thinks of highly paid civil servants, not the road sweepers, hospital porters and dinner ladies of this world.

Another thing;

If a private company goes bust, then that's that. Or if the owners want to close a branch down or something, the employees can't do anything as they are pretty much at the mercy of their employers.

The government don't 'own' the public sector. Major difference. We all do. So, if the government want to make cuts, then they have to consider the needs of the people. That's what democracy is all about.

The government doesn't have the right to make these proposed cuts, as they will have detrimental effects on vast numbers of British people. It's just that this bunch of self-serving scum don't have the balls to piss their wealthy mates off by imposing heavy taxes on the rich...

And for anyone who says 'oh but there's no money', balls,. have a look around you. Is this a 'poor' country? Is it heck. There is money around, it's just a matter of prising it from the grasp of the few, for the benefit of the many...

I find it quite ironic that a good many of the coppers there today probably feel exactly the same as the protesters about the cuts.

My wife was down on Oxford St today (needed to buy something, didn't realise the protest march was on...) Anyhoo, she spoke with a riot bobby to find out what all the fuss was about and he said (after explaining the situation etc) just exactly that, ie. that he'd have been in there protesting as well if he weren't working...

Elfin who do you think pays for the public benefits in the first place? The money doesn't just magically appear. Private companies serve private interests AND public interests. It's called tax.

tax greed appropriately.. or the general population will eventualy get pissed off with it all..

Just seen the riots, bloody idiots.
I cant believe ed Milliband has the nerve to stand there and talk about money after his lot nearly bankrupted the country.

I dont have any answers its just a giant sh*t sandwhich and I'm afraid we all have to take a bite.

Private companies serve private interests AND public interests. It's called tax.

****ing right an' all. And it should be much higher.

How can we live in a country where a few have unimaginable wealth, yet there are hundreds of thousands without adequate housing, education, health care etc?

And don't tell me it's cos they've 'worked hard'. The hardest workers in this country aren't the best paid, so that tired old cliche is a crock of poo.

Does that mean we are all happy if taxes go up to avoid cuts then?

cant speak for others but yes if it was the right sort and not one that hits the poorest hardes..... oh hang on....

Elfin you're basically a communist right? I mean that's perfectly ok of course but I kind a thought that the world had established that it doesn't work.
I know a few people who fall into the category your identify ie the very rich and uniformly they all work silly hard. I also know other people who work in the public sector and also work silly hard. It's just life. You make choices you live with them and try to be happy. Not easy but then life isn't easy is it.

It's just life.

bollo..

tax greed appropriately.. reduce the wages of super earners.. make [i]that[/i] system 'just life'..

Why is it that public sector workers want to fight it while the private sector just get on with finding a new job?

Private companies serve private interests AND public interests. It's called tax.

Why is it this way? Why is it that public sector workers want to fight it while the private sector just get on with finding a new job?

Because those in the private sector are conditioned to operate as an individual.

And don't tell me it's cos they've 'worked hard'. The hardest workers in this country aren't the best paid, so that tired old cliche is a crock of poo.

+1.

I cant believe ed Milliband has the nerve to stand there and talk about money after his lot nearly bankrupted the country.

I seem to remember that it was the financial sector that nearly bankrupt the country, and that debt was passed over to the Government from it. While the previous Government were not hot on regulation, the current lot in power were calling for less regulation. I can't find an ideal world with no hypocrites in it.

Elfin you're basically a communist right? I mean that's perfectly ok of course but I kind a thought that the world had established that it doesn't work

And capitalism does ? I think that rather depends on your worldview and how much evidence you are prepared to ignore.

As is the assumption that communism doesn't work.

Elfin you're basically a communist right?

Wrong.

I kind a thought that the world had established that it doesn't work.

Again wrong.

I know a few people who fall into the category your identify ie the very rich and uniformly they all work silly hard.

Nurses, are they?

I'm sure that all those protesting in the public sector are not doing so in pure self interest. Those that work as health professionals, with the disadvantaged and disenfranchised have seen their ability to do their jobs and make a difference eroded by creeping cuts. Job freezes in the public sector have meant that those who's responsibility it is to look after those most in need are stretched incredibly thinly. Dismissing protesters as loony lefty types is vacuous and patronising. The fact is we live in a country where an eleven year old can be a primary carer for a disabled parent and pensioners cannot afford to heat their homes, yet the mega rich employ companies with the express purpose of tax avoidance.

Social responsibility or the politics of envy? Hmmm.

My employer did two rounds of redundencies with 10% of all staff going each time, I know lots of others that went through the same thing. It's just the public sectors turn, sure it sucks, but that's life.

BTW can someone explain to me why someone being well paid automatically means they didn't work as hard as a nurse/fireman/council employee?

At the risk of no doubt attracting some adverse comment, here we go! I'm a senior police officer and despite having to do the job with at least 20% less people than I was a few months ago, my colleagues and I have just found out that we will be receiving a real terms 20% pay cut and are likely to have to work 10+ years longer to receive the pension we pay 11% superan' over 30/35 years service. And to cap it all, this Government expect us to police friends in similar situations at protests such as today's. B***tards!

Go on fill your boots!

elbent, I'm no expert but didnt the Labour Party overspend year after year? Didnt Brown sell all our gold (cheap!)? Yes the bankers did more than their bit but Labour bailed them out to the tune of billions.

Let us not forget the worker from the treasury who left the note saying 'theres no money left, good luck'

I cant be doing with any of them, red, blue or yellow, all lying, cheating, nest feathering ego maniacs.

Why is it this way? Why is it that public sector workers want to fight it while the private sector just get on with finding a new job?

Because private sector workings think, "Phew least it's not me" Public sectors think "Hold on that's not right"?

The government doesn't have the right to make these proposed cuts, as they will have detrimental effects on vast numbers of British people.

Like it or not, they were voted in democratically following an election run according to the law of the land at the time. Whether that law is fair or not, whether PR or whatever would be fairer is irrelevant. There was (AFAIK) no voting fraud. Which basically means they do have the right to make these cuts. They're the elected government.

well, It's Saturday, the sun was out and I was riding me bike on some nice North Wales natural type trails with some likeminded types. I know, I know, I should've jetted to London. Can I not just write a disapproving letter or send David Cameron a shit in a box?

Like it or not, they were voted in democratically following an election run according to the law of the land at the time.

That does not mean however, that they should not be held to account. Democracy is not something to worry about every five years. The idea that we have collectively made our choice and should all be quiet and let them get on with it, doesn't wash I'm afraid. How much of what they are doing was spelt out to the millions of Lib Dem voters before the election?

No-ones asking you to Kev. But being mindful of the reality of what the Tory cuts will lead to, will be a start. Stuff that could have an impact on the level of health care your family receive, for example.

oh I'm mindful alright, as in very pissed off.

That does not mean however, that they should not be held to account. Democracy is not something to worry about every five years. The idea that we have collectively made our choice and should all be quiet and let them get on with it, doesn't wash I'm afraid. How much of what they are doing was spelt out to the millions of Lib Dem voters before the election?

Of course not, and I fully agree that people should have the right to protest. That doesn't mean the government doesn't have the right to do what they have chosen to do, though. Of course they should listen to the protesters, and I don't doubt that they'll water down the most controversial of the cuts. Mind you, ignoring people who would never have voted for you anyway isn't that hard...

As for the millions of Lib Dem voters: tough. They voted for the party leader, and if they don't like it they can deselect him at the next election. They may have gone into the election dreaming of a LibLab pact with Clegg et al holding Brown's crown jewels to ransom, but that was only ever one possibility.

Crikey ... so many chiefs wanting to run the country. 🙄

At work, we're currently figuring out how to maintain the same standard of education on considerably less money. That's assuming we get the same number of students, as the scrapping of the EMA, councils cutting back their school transport budgets and tuition fees might mean some school leavers can't come to do A levels anymore.

The Tories really are putting the 'n' into cuts.

so many chiefs wanting to run the country

The Tories really are putting the 'n' into cuts.

They didn't hide the fact that public services would be hit in their manifesto did they ?

postierich - Member
Watching the news and size of the crowds are very impressive and good natured mostly all walks of life trying to protect services and jobs shame the minority will get all the headlines

Posted 5 hours ago # Report-Post

Yep the tory minority got a look in, and said how sad it was the plebs destroyed property.

But a better way to look at it is all the work for skilled tradesmen,the clean up squads, the recycling industry, and the police writeing up all those reports about how they defended the capitalist buildings, while not catching bike thieves.

Junkyard - Member
we thank you for elevating us to above the maggots dear leader

All hail dear chiefs! All hail dear chiefs! Still maggots though.

Oh look! The chiefs want to run the country ... 😆

p/s: ... all must be thankful to Dear Leader ...

argh Mike, just the man, is this a good or bad time to apply for a head of biology post at a 6th form college, and what are the implications to careers of heading to a 6th form collge for a few years?

Top tip: instead of whining, simply work harder meaning you finish your job earlier thus saving our ears.

Hora; you might want to take yer own advice there mate... 😉

Tijuana Taxi - Member

I find it quite ironic that a good many of the coppers there today probably feel exactly the same as the protesters about the cuts.

psychle - Member

My wife was down on Oxford St today (needed to buy something, didn't realise the protest march was on...) Anyhoo, she spoke with a riot bobby to find out what all the fuss was about and he said (after explaining the situation etc) just exactly that, ie. that he'd have been in there protesting as well if he weren't working...

This letter from a serving police officer appeared in today's Morning Star, of all newspapers :

[b][i]
I hear that Tom Winsor, who recently carried out a review of police pay and conditions, has found himself a wee bit under pressure and as a result has asked chief police officers do his dirty work by spreading favourable propaganda about his findings.

I would urge my fellow officers not to be deceived into believing that they would be better off under his proposals.

Listen to your federation, read the Polfed website, for that is where the truth is to be found.

I have no doubt that chief officers are worried about their own futures with the impending plans for elected police chiefs.

Commissioners will do all that they can to curry favour with their political masters even if it means costing officers' jobs and livelihoods.

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has fallen woefully short during the last 12 months or so.

I am reminded of the words of Oliver Cromwell when he dissolved the rump parliament in 1653.

"Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your god for a few pieces of silver."

We are officers of the crown and our loyalty is to the Queen and to the people we serve and certainly not the government.

My rallying cry to my colleagues up and down England and Wales is this - stand firm and stand united.

Do not be deceived by those who would deceive you.

This government's game is divide and conquer.

If we lose this fight not only will we lose but so will every public-sector worker in the country lose.

James Chespy
Rochester [/i][/b]

I find it quite extraordinary that Bullingdon toffs should have alienated coppers so much that one felt moved enough to write to the Morning Star. Not a wise move for the copper imo, although presumably he knew what he was doing.

But yeah, we're all in this together..........we're all gonna be screwed by this government.

Yeah that letter sounds really credible. I'd usually expect people to readily have a quote from Cromwell to hand and if I had something to say, I'd certainly say it to a circulation of 5 at the risk of my career.

Nice to see the Morning Star is still a pile of patronising twaddle.

Well PC James Chespy will be able to sue the Morning Star then trailmonkey.

PC James Chespy :

[url= http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Police-Review-Community-2008/This-week-with-PC-James-Chespy.html ]This week with PC James Chespy[/url]

[url= http://www.policereview.com/talk/community-directory?keys=+James+Chespy ]Community Directory[/url]

[url= http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kjTq6S_WjH4J:www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/fund-started-to-help-workington-policeman-bill-barker-s-family-1.640732%3FreferrerPath%3D2.6280+%22James+Chespy%22&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk ]PC James Chespy has written to a police magazine.[/url]

[url= http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0rrp9_H-KPEJ:review.police.uk/index.php%3Fd%3D1%26p%3D1%26c%3Dquestion1%26s%3D330+%22James+Chespy%22&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk ]it is clear that the job works on overtime to revise or abolish the rate in favour of salarying officers would not work[/url]

And so it goes on.......

PC James Chespy is clearly a very real copper. If the Morning Star has falsely claimed that he wrote a letter to them, then he will have no problem suing them.

Which is surprising, because I know for a fact that the Morning star has a lawyer who reads every issue before it's published for libellous content - I've seen him do it.

You see the Morning Star unlike other newspapers can't afford to be sued, it would quite possibly bankrupt them.

So it looks like they've dropped a bollock. Or you're talking shite.

But then your suggestion that no one can quote Cromwell when writing a letter is obviously shite. So I guess it's probably just a case of you talking shite.

it's probably just a case of you talking shite.

🙄

seriously ernie_lynch, i'd expect more of you than that tj cut'n'paste nonsense. all your linking proved was the point that i was trying to make. the article in the star was nothing more than editorial rhetoric in the guise of a news article/letter provided by a like minded stooge.

**** me, you wonder why the workers are disenfranchised from the left when we're fed that sort of patronising nonsense.
worst of it is, we used to have the star at home and i can remember seeing through it when i was 13 🙄

how was the demo Ernie?

I shall indeed be leafleting in an hour or so time, to publicise next Saturday's demonstration against government policies.

So if anyone is in Croydon and wants to join us, we will be outside the Whitgift Centre (High Street side) from 12.30 pm.

which alternative were you marching for?

Miliband?

or the zero cuts message?

the article in the star

It wasn't an article. It was a letter in the letter's page. I made that point very clear in my first post. Read posts properly before commenting ? 💡

big_n_daft - Member

🙄

Well a copper suing the Morning Star for falsely claiming that he had written a letter to them for publication will undoubtedly make the news. So it should eventually become clear who is talking shite.

But then again big and daft, you far more of an expert on talking shite than me.

btw the Morning Star has never in its entire history been sued by anyone - it has made sure of that. I don't know what protocol it uses before publishing letters, but I suspect that it is very simular to that of the Guardian which will only publish letters after it had contacted the author by phone to confirm that they are who they say they are. No newspaper likes to be needlessly sued.

I have to say big and daft, you and trailmonkey have surpassed yourselves in pointless challenging of facts which don't quite fit in with your own distorted prejudices. You even got me to respond. Well done.

It wasn't an article. It was a letter in the letter's page. I made that point very clear in my first post. Read posts properly before commenting ?

trailmonkey - Member
.............the article in the star was nothing more than editorial rhetoric in the guise of a news article[b]/letter[/b] provided by a like minded stooge.

Read posts properly before commenting ? 💡

You even got me to respond. Well done.

you didn't answer the questions though

how was the demo Ernie?

which alternative were you marching for?

Miliband?

or the zero cuts message?

?

Are you pissed trailmonkey ? ........ I've never known you to act quite so dense before.

I thought your comment that no one would think of quoting Cromwell in a letter was a staggeringly moronic one-off, but you appear to be determined to show that you are capable of much more.

btw the Morning Star has never in its entire history been sued by anyone - it has made sure of that. I don't know what protocol it uses before publishing letters,

it's pretty simple. it has a very small circulation and generally publishes letters from like minded readers.

which is the point i've tried to make in my original post. a letter from a socialist to a socialist paper means very little. if the same officer had sent the same letter to the telegraph and had it published it would haver twice the impact and twice the credibility.

the editor of the star could have written everything that the officer did, which kind of makes the letter pointless.

that no one would think of quoting Cromwell

as Cromwell has a mixed reception in certain company I would regard quoting him as something that should be carefully thought through

anyway, back to the demo, how was it for you Ernie? 😉

the editor of the star could have written everything that the officer did, which kind of makes the letter pointless.

Yes, you appear to be determined to show that you are capable of much more.

So the letter was pointless because the editor could have written it, despite the fact that PC James Chespy did ?

Well that is true of every letter in every paper then. All letters in papers are therefore "pointless" according to you.

Your objection is based on the fact that you think letters in newspapers are pointless. You should have said that at the start.

No, how was it for [i]you[/i], BnD?

Well?

are you still at the Olympic clock Ernie?

how was it for you, BnD?

I went for a bike ride, you know, a prior commitment 😉

Your objection is based on the fact that you think letters in newspapers are pointless. You should have said that at the start.

no, my objection is based on the letter being of little value because the whole point of letters should be about opening up opinions for debate.

just agreeing with the editorial is pointless, so i guess that pc chespy's letter falls into that category, yes, although in fairness, i've been trying, rather painfully, to say that from the start.

anyone watching news 24
they just cut live to the the scene bbc home affairs correspondent who was able to reveal the massive scoop that a taxi was being held up by a small group of protestors but the taxi driver was being very good natured about it

Fair enough. Was it a good ride? Where d'you go?

So, trailmonkey thinks all letters to newspapers should be contradictory to the onions held by the papers themselves then? Just to 'stimulate debate'?

Wait until he sees what I wroted on the Boat Race thread then. That'll fox him. 🙂

just agreeing with the editorial is pointless

So you read the Morning Star editorials do you ? Well so do I. I have not read any editorials concerning Tom Winsor's review of police pay and conditions.

Perhaps you can show me which editorial that letter is agreeing with ?

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/1796

local 25 mile road loop, injury precludes mtb at the moment

huffed and puffed up the hills! 🙂

anyone watching news 24
they just cut live to the the scene bbc home affairs correspondent who was able to reveal the massive scoop that a taxi was being held up by a small group of protestors but the taxi driver was being very good natured about it

Yep. playing "where's Ernie?"

do you guys ever sleep? I'm beginning to suspect. and where do you get to in the end? somebody is right? for the night?

where do you get to in the end?

the demo?

I'm right Kev, as everyone knows, but it's fun letting them argue amongst themselves for a bit. Keeps them occupied.

A bit like Palestinian lands. 😯

You wanna try the nuclear power stations thread. I think some bloke's arguing with himself. 😆

So you read the Morning Star editorials do you ?

no, if i want to patrionised, i just enter into dialogue with you.

are you tyring to suggest that pc chespy and the star are miles apart ?

they're not though are they.