Jesus wept, 8 options and all of them defeated. New option, just do a Belgium and trundle along until the country says **** it and resets.
and Bill Cash sums life up properly
"People voted by 17.4 million for the Idea of leaving the EU"
Exactly the idea
OK... trying not to sound patronising for a moment - **** off and shut up at the back
squirrelking
Member
Jesus wept, 8 options and all of them defeated. New option, just do a Belgium and trundle along until the country says **** it and resets.
This is not the same as a vote in normal terms, this is really you show me yours I show you mine.
It's about worming out what is really not acceptable for a start, get rid of the losers and see what comes next - if we rule out the worst performers as options and look to preferences you get an idea where we are going.
This is not the normal day to day of parliament so don't judge it by those rules.
What it does say is May has no future along with her deal, confirmation vote is looking likely whatever we do.
What tonight reinforces is there's no "will of the people" brexit. There are multiple possibilities with no overall support.
<mod>
can we not draw ex-forum members into the fray or otherwise slag them off when they have no right of reply please? Thanks.
</mod>
put it to the people!!
Yeah I agree mike a confirmatory referendum on which arrangement we should leave the EU with.
saves us from being at the mercy of our own government making trade deals
Well the only example is Turkey, EU get to offer access to Turkey's markets without Turkey getting the benefits of the trade deal under which that access is granted or having any say in those trade deals. You surrender absolutely everything on trade for the square root of bugger all.
That seems like a good idea, but we'd need to be certain it truly was the "will of the people", so a 60% supermajority required, with at least say 8 brexit options on the ballot.
If the supermajority isn't reached we remain. Sorted.
Full breakdown of how every MP voted
I'm inclined to agree, a second ref, a legal and fair one this time, with all that entails, might be the only way forward.
I don't like it, I quite like the high drama, but on balance, maybe it's the most fair way forward for all.
Mike, nothing is normal full stop and I can't see a way out this paralysis. I understand what you're saying but at the end of the day we have 2 days to do what should have been done 2 years ago and then a further 12 days to make it look good or...
...embrace the Belgian option!
Interesting.
*bangs head on wall*
*bites carpet*
*howls at moon*
take away their subsidised bars and lock 'em in the house until they can at lest decide something FFS. Incompetent shower of imbeciles.
I thought the votes went as expected? No? What did people expect?
One thing I still don't get is the line Labour front benchers are still pushing… even after that vote… that any withdrawal amendment that May wants requires a referendum, but any that Labour might arrive in future does not.
27 Labour MPs abstained or opposed Beckett, have a look at how many it lost by.
I think people don’t understand indicative. Mind you I’m not sure we needed a vote to tell us they can’t agree, but it is indicative of the issue.
Doesn't Beckett's proposal require a confirmation vote for all variations of Brexit? Labour whipped for this.
Full breakdown of how every MP voted
Our MP voted for No Deal, and against everything else.
Labour whipped for this.
But it doesn't apply if we have a quick election and Labour win. No, makes no sense to me either, argue with Labour front benchers, not me.
Labour manifesto in GE may say something like "we will negotiate a new deal but will put it to a referendum" Who knows?
Normally if Parliament cannot agree, you’d have a GE. The problem is that the GE is then actually about one topic only: Brexit, but you won’t actually be able to vote for your solution, you just end up voting for a party, so what do you do if, for example, you are a Tory remainer? We are never going to be in a position where every viable alternative is represented by a political party. I just cannot see any reasonable way out of this which doesn’t involve putting the options in a referendum.
My slimey weasel tory MP voted against all of it. Apart from the no deal. He knows what side his bread is buttered on. Slimey **** he is.
I think people don’t understand indicative.
This
I thought the votes went as expected? No? What did people expect?
A burning bush and some bloke called Brian, in fact this is entirely a Brian situation.
These votes were to gauge opinion and to show your hand a bit, part 2 is on Monday.
In the middle of this May resigned but failed to acually resign trying to get her deal through
(TLDR - she just lost the DUP as they need her to be in charge to cash the cheque)
She tried to scupper this and failed.
Next up cabinet (or at least the main ones) were not allowed to vote hence totals not being right
So come Monday if or when May's deal is dead we get back together and they come up with a plan to reduce options to get a result, that could be preferences or something else but this is a new process - don't compare it to a normal vote because it isn't one you will just demonstrate your ignorance.
I'd suggest for anyone who can on Monday to listen to BBC parliament and hear waht MP's are saying in the house. It's quite revealing.
The most important thing here what are the government exit routes?
1) May is being goaded into putting her deal to the people vs remain -she loves her deal it's amazing why wouldn't she it's going to win obviously!
2) We go back fro a customes unuion ie very soft brexit
3) Whatever we do it needs to go back to the people as it's not what was promises - I mean you are so confident people want to leave whatever they will vote for you, it's not like you have patronised them and told then how to think is it??
So ball back with May for now
“we will negotiate a new deal but will put it to a referendum”
Have you been listening? Labour front benchers are saying that a Labour organised Brexit will NOT be put to a referendum. We're not talking fence sitting "implied" type comments, they are being crystal clear.
…so what do you do if, for example, you are a Tory remainer?
Or a Labour remainer? If you're getting sick of "80% of people voted for parties who promised to leave the Single Market in their manifestos" being constantly repeated… a snap General Election now would result in even stronger claims…
How do you have preference voting when one of the options is not exclusive.
Beckett's proposal works with any other option the way it is framed.
Hece why it should be legislated I can see that being a may death throw in a plague on both your houses move.
It's going to end up in revoking, I hope.
There's no consensus for anything, and they propositions are bat shit crazy. so logically the position will be the status quo.
How do you have preference voting when one of the options is not exclusive.
It's top of the pile, firstly I'd ask for more than 20mins to work it out but I'm sure it's possible.
New ****ing territory here give everyone a minute
Edit if that is the only. Bit of my opinion/analysis you disagree with it seems not too bad 🙂
This was a joke headline in the daily mash way back in January...
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/all-options-ruled-out-20190116181417
And now it's reality, all options rulled out.
Apart from the two options that MP’s are too scared of.
Suicide or remain.
The options were never any different.
I was only asking the Q as a few MPs had suggested similar.
I think a bigger issue may be who will actually change their vote to increase the numbers for 2nd ref for example. There is such a big overlap of votes for the most popular options I can't see a preference system making much difference.
When I've done preference voting it's always been to rank those that you favour the most and option to exclude anything you don't support - so you don't vote for something you actively oppose. In this case the same MPs would rank 2nd ref and CU as 1 or 2 and those opposed wouldn't rank them at all. So CU or 2nd ref wins but with a similar number of votes
Maybe I'm being dense + it's past my bedtime:
Well, another Parliamentary shitshow.
Actually I'm not sure it was. May was creating then pushing her deal as a solo effort, it was her thing, Brexit was her project. It didn't matter who liked it or didn't - until the last minute of course. By throwing lots of options at the house and seeing what gets voted for in the manner they did, they're effectively saying 'go on then, tell us what we should be doing' and they couldn't agree. When the referendum result came in, some people were saying it would be nearly impossible if not actually impossible to leave the EU. Well, this shows that it is basically nearly impossible without huge self harm
And that is an actual result, a real outcome and is something we can work with. It's just a crime that it's so late in the day! This should have been the very first motion the day after the referendum.
... the only thing that I can think would shift the voting significantly would be a Labour offering to allow May's WA through if she will put to 2nd ref
Of all those votes only two are grounded in reality, revoke and no deal, everything else requires EU agreement and I can't see them agreeing to a extension of A50 that would require UK MEP elections as Farage's party would get a massive boost from the more reactionary leavers and the EU parliament would be impacted.
I can't see May now going for revoke unless as a last act where parliament suddenly overwhelmingly panicked and it could pass. No deal is already baked in to law, MV3 will not be a win for deal.
So what is your way forward Mefty? How do you get this through?
As I explained a few pages ago, I would allow the PD to be widened to include the alternative of a customs union and then hold a referendum on the two alternatives in the PD, having implemented the WA.
Political posturing aside, the facts are obvious.
Leave or remain.
The latter is monumentally stupid.
So where does that put the UK?
The former is monumentally stupid.
ftfy
Our MP voted for No Deal, and against everything else.
Assuming it wasn't (also) Andrew Jones the useless toady if he interested to see his many did the same. I'm assuming they're all tories who "support" the deal but I can't believe any of them would genuinely say its what they want, unless of course they're only out for their jobs.
I really do hope we get a Green candidate fielded this time around. I was quite unhappy to have no acceptable options at the last GE.
Guardian leader writer agrees with me about the main hope for a 2nd ref being for Labour to support May's WA conditional on a 2nd ref versus remain
Guardian leader writer agrees with me about the main hope for a 2nd ref being for Labour to support May’s WA conditional on a 2nd ref versus remain
The problem with a 2nd ref, is there's very little reason to think we'll be given an option <50% of us want. If we are and the question isn't binary then we'll have huge and ongoing clamour about deliberately spliting the vote. If it is binary with remain on the ballot we end up in the same mess we are now unless opinion has changed notably, especially if we ask for that super majority we wish had been asked for the first time around.
I honestly see another referendum as being only marginally better than no deal and worse than most everything else.
Revokation (off the back of blind panic in likelihood) is the best I can hope for but, softest of soft brexit followed by reapplication and admission in a few years wouldn't be a bad thing either. really, what this needs, is a decision, any decision, from the people we pay to make those decisions, whom we provide with researchers and so on to ensure they actually have the information at their disposal and who we pay to attend* debates on these things so they have both sides of the argument. Asking gen pop again will imo only make the situation worse.
*sufficient to draw a paycheck at least.
Our MP voted for No Deal, and against everything else.
Mine too, Craig Whittaker Con, he's a whip as well...
Mine voted for second referendum and revoke article 50, and against leaving with no deal, seek preferential trade agreements, and EFTA
But that's because I am in Scotland and even though we obviously talk sense up here it counts for diddly squat
My mp Dennis Skinner, voted like an ERG hopeful. Think its time he steps down. Overall the votes went well and despite a few toddlers throwing their toys, a certain amount of order has returned. For now. Good to see Jacob trying to back peddle yet again.
@mefty I can't see any way she will. Get enough support for a referendum.after her wa.is implemented, it rules out what is really the majority opinion of remain.
The one that should be off the table now is no deal, there is very little support and massive opposition to it.
If she puts mv3 down for a vote she wither needs to make it conditional on a public.vote or that ammendment will be added for her.
Given the numbers of tories who were squirming and contorting themselves over this last night this all feels very democratic 😉
Mine voted for second referendum and revoke article 50,
Thankfully mine too - I'm in a constituency which very marginally voted Leave but the MP is Labour and actually very good. Nice to see that she's not doing a Maybot with her "will of the people" crap.
Ours didn't vote on any of the proposals but then he's the chief whip - Julian Smith, Skipton and Ripon.
Article 50 was invoked too quickly IMO, it should only have been done once an agreement had been reached or at least close to being so, both in parliament and with the EU. Therefore revoke article 50 and have a 2nd referendum but there's two questions: remain or leave?; If leave what should be our future relationship with the EU - CM 2.0; Norway; etc.
As we saw last time a simple remain/leave question leaves open just what "leave" means but a single multiple choice question loads it in favour of "remain" since there's only one way to remain but multiple ways to leave. As with the Scottish Independence referendum the voting age should be lowered to 16 since any result is going to affect the young for far longer than us daisy pushers.
My Tory MP, much to my surprise, voted for the Conformatory Referendum. He did vote against any other positive move forward, but that’s better than some of the other pathetic “vote against everything” Tories.
but that’s better than some of the other pathetic “vote against everything” Tories.
Would prefer one of those than the local ****er going full ERG for no deal.
Our MP voted for No Deal, and against everything else
I just re-read that, no more 3am pre flight posting for me sorry, mine (Andrew Jones, Harrogate) voted against everything ffs. Nothing. Not even supporting no deal.
My MP voted for No deal and nothing else and seems more concerned with whether his son might have to answer for war crimes in the future.
Well mine (Salford) was against no deal, abstain on efta, for cu abstain revoke and for 2nd ref guess that was the Labour whip
What is disappointing this morning is the lack of understanding on the summary news. No position got a majority, which is very different to all defeated and no mention of further votes to come on Monday.
Mark Francois on BBC currently channelling Kipling's If (I'm using mindfulness to avoid putting my foot through the screen)
I have a slightly different view...... if you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs......you've probably misunderstood the situation.
With regard to the A50 extension, what is the minimum that the government need to do to extend beyond April 12th if/when May's deal doesn't pass. AIUI May 22nd is only 'in play' if the WA is pased before April 12th, so I assume we'd need to apply for a longer extension, take part in EU elections AND demonstrate that we've got a way to find an acceptable solution... is that all?
My MP was against everything except No Deal and that really vague 'some other arrangement' thing. Knob.
a question for those that think it's undemocratic to ask for revalidation once new information comes to light.......
How many Tour de France titles does Lance Armstrong have?
Article 50 was invoked too quickly IMO, it should only have been done once an agreement had been reached or at least close to being so, both in parliament and with the EU.
Once again, the EU were very clear that no discussions on the future relationship would be carried out until Article 50 was triggered. Apart from that, yes, there should have been a concensus across the house of what the aim was, who should be negotiating it and where the emergency escapes led. But it's a bit ****ing late for all that now.
Mine voted for second referendum and revoke article 50, and against leaving with no deal, seek preferential trade agreements, and EFTA
But that’s because I am in Scotland and even though we obviously talk sense up here it counts for diddly squat
Being in Scotland didn't stop my MP Ross Thompson of Aberdeen South voting for No deal and item 7 Contingent preferential arrangements
Calls for the government to seek to agree preferential trade arrangements with the EU
He really is a nasty piece of work, I can't believe that people voted him in.
With regard to the A50 extension, what is the minimum that the government need to do to extend beyond April 12th if/when May’s deal doesn’t pass.
Ask and show a copy of our plan.
Personally I'm optimistic this morning we now have an indication of what is more preferred and what mps will not accept. Bring on Monday.
Mike - what do you think will happen on Monday? (Edit I realise this sounds like I'm having a go - I'm not just struggling to see a way through this) Other than a May WA/2nd ref mashup I can't see the votes changing much. A few abstainers on 2nd ref may move but nothing much else
@squirrelking - ah yes, forgot that bit about the EU's requirement. Like you say, getting everyone (or a significant unwhipped majority) on board on the UK side would have been a start. Instead we wasted time on a General Election!
there should have been a concensus across the house of what the aim was, who should be negotiating it and where the emergency escapes led.
The down side to that is the current fiasco at least in principal has an end to it, getting parliament to agree it before hand would have had the same monopolising effect on the Hoc indefinitely, especially given that the main thrust of Labour policy is to not agree with the government on anything, unless they think it'll go really badly and ultimately bring down the government, in which case get out the fiddles and start some fires.
What is disappointing this morning is the lack of understanding on the summary news. No position got a majority, which is very different to all defeated and no mention of further votes to come on Monday.
Beckett explaining it well on Radio4 (and also suggesting why she thinks many have willful blindness as regards the process).
Farage’s party would get a massive boost from the more reactionary leavers
I wouldn't bank on that now. I reckon given the events of the last 3 years many more pro EU voters would turn out.
Oh and checking that Grauniad link my MP (CON in a Remain constituency) voted against everything. If they are going to continue to trot out the "will of the people" mantra about "will of MY constituents"? Any way it's a seat which swings between CON and LibDem so bring on the next election.
I can’t see any way she will. Get enough support for a referendum.after her wa.is implemented, it rules out what is really the majority opinion of remain.
226 Labour MPs voted for Customs Union, 242 voted for May's deal without any crossover, you could afford to lose almost 150 and still get it through, whilst another referendum is not ideal, it has the merit of moving the issue on rather than pulling the scab off an old sore.
I wouldn’t bank on that now. I reckon given the events of the last 3 years many more pro EU voters would turn out.
I hate to tell you this but the revoke article 50 petition is still below 6 million and only moving very slowly. I think those of us who voted to remain and would happily see article 50 revoked may well be living in an echo chamber where we are convincing ourselves that millions have changed their minds despite the evidence.
and that really vague ‘some other arrangement’ thing.
The ask for preferential terms one? Which seems to be an ERG attempt to confuse things. After all I would expect that to have been the starting point of any negotiation to ask for a special deal.
I think those of us who voted to remain and would happily see article 50 revoked may well be living in an echo chamber where we are convincing ourselves that millions have changed their minds despite the evidence.
Only one way to find out....
I hate to tell you this but the revoke article 50 petition is still below 6 million and only moving very slowly.
Yes, but it’s an online petition that will not affect any actual policy. And has had a few days to gather signatures.
That’s a long way from a well publicised campaign for an actual vote.
I take the rate of participation as a sign, to say nothing if the fact that it outdid the leave equivalent by ten to one.
So whilst the country burns, Corbyn is busy tweeting about how the SNP once helped Fatchaaa in 1979.
I think those of us who voted to remain and would happily see article 50 revoked may well be living in an echo chamber where we are convincing ourselves that millions have changed their minds despite the evidence.
The polls are pretty reasonable evidence IMO. Of course, polls can be wrong, but it's hard to interpret the polling results as indicating anything other than at least some shift in public opinion. And it wouldn't take much.
Let's not forget leavers dying off.
Let’s not forget leavers dying off.
This is true - we've already passed the notional date by which Remain would supposedly win a re-run, even if no-one changed their vote. Every month that passes shifts the balance further as gammons become incapable of voting either through illness or the sweet embrace of death.
So whilst the country burns, Corbyn is busy tweeting about how the SNP once helped Fatchaaa in 1979.
I’m actually enraged by the video he posted.
I was there to witness the demolition of the Ravenscraig and coppers beating steelworkers with truncheons.
I don’t recall anyone mentioning at the time that it was the SNP to blame.
I also don’t recall the incumbent Labour MP at the time ever making any sort of appearance to do anything about it.
It’s a shameful bit of propaganda which serves absolutely no positive purpose at a time when Corbyn should be doing his actual job of opposing the most incompetent government in history.
Shock post by the Panther that isn’t comic genius! Sh1t just got real!
Percy, please, resume normal service!
Just looked at the voting records. There are some MPs, edit, just tories, that voted against everything. WTF do they want?
They want whatever they are told to want. Some MPs are just there to echo the government or their political/business masters.
WTF do they want?
I would guess they may be opposed to the idea of indicative votes.
me too perchypanther. snp was pretty much a non entity in those days, in Motherwell anyway. Was a solid labour seat.
now, the electorate vote SNP and get tory/labour coalition. WTF.
at least some shift in public opinion. And it wouldn’t take much.
Only we want a super majority, just like we should have required first time around. The mess we're in is the result of a near 50/50 split. This genuinely would have been easy if it had been 80/20 leave because, frankly, hard brevit would keep a depressing number of the 80 happy.
tomhoward
Subscriber
Just looked at the voting records. There are some MPs
If you're where I think you are Tom one of them is ours. Odd as he's personable and reasonable on both occasions I've met him but seems to leave his spine at the gate when he goes to Westminster.
As to what they want, the only thing I can guess is they actually want May's deal and all the no was then dummy spitting at not having defeated the motion for the IV
Mike – what do you think will happen on Monday?
This. As someone said, "nothing has changed". No deal is still the default barring MPs choosing another option and getting May to accept it. Chances of that ... ???
…voted against everything. WTF do they want?
a) to rule out anything that isn't proposed by their government
or
b) to watch it all burn