[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

You seem to be too dim

Oh he's not dim, just utterly lacking in self-awareness or empathy - both classic Tory traits.

The three conditions are only there to delay real negotiations.

We've been through this before, they [i]will[/i] need sorting out at some point or else anything else will fail. We can either start on the difficult stuff now and give it the time required to be resolved, or stick it at the end and don't resolve it.

1) There is clearly some money owing, the number needs to be worked through and agreed upon. If it's not, how can any other form of business deal requiring trust in fulfilment of financial commitments be reached?

2) The fate of EU citizens in the UK (and vice versa) needs to be resolved as these are real people with real lives and real commitments.

3) The Irish border needs to be sorted out as FoM between Ulster and RoI is a pre-requisite of the GFA, but an open border cannot exist between the UK and EU unless some agreement on FoM is reached as it would obviously represent a backdoor between the two economic zones.

These issues aren't going to just go away. (3) is by far the most problematic as without accepting FoM the UK government will breach the GFA, but any soft border would always be a backdoor method of immigration either into the UK or the EU depending upon which had the tougher immigration stance on the origin state of any immigrant.

So do we take it that you would not like to see EU law remaining on our statute books after we have left? Odd, I would have thought that would be a top priority?

**** me...

Actually, I take it back, he really is that dim.

These issues aren't going to just go away. (3) is by far the most problematic as without accepting FoM the UK government will breach the GFA, but any soft border would always be a backdoor method of immigration either into the UK or the EU depending upon which had the tougher immigration stance on the origin state of any immigrant.

On the great repeal bill nobody has taken me up on the offer to manage their money for the next month - maybe the just don't have any trust....

mike - the major issue with 2) is that eu citizens in the UK have to have their rights protected by the ECJ, May is hostage to rabid brexiteers for whom this is a red line. so no possibility of compromise on that either

The British government’s claim that a deal on citizens’ rights is “within touching distance” is false and its offer this week of a streamlined application system for EU nationals seeking to stay in the UK is inadequate, the European parliament has warned.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/09/european-parliament-contradicts-uk-claim-deal-on-citizens-rights

a UK government source said in response to the letter: “We respect the parliament but we are negotiating with the commission.”

How dim are they. the EU parliament has to approve any deal, the commission acts on behalf of the parliament

Its really is the last act of the desperate to say group think – what it means is I have no facts to counter this so I will just shout out something I cannot prove.

PS its not my graph its just the facts in visual form.

Aggressive. I'm not desperate or shouting, just thinking aloud which I thought was kind of the point of online forums! Graph is factual but it doesn't say what you and others have said or suggested, ie "more intelligent people voted remain". While I agreed this is probably true, and I personally think to remain would have been much better, I think there are a lot of exceptions in both directions.

Re groupthink, you picked a definition that suited your argument. Here's another:

"Groupthink is a term first used in 1972 by social psychologist Irving L. Janis that refers to a psychological phenomenon in which people strive for consensus within a group. In many cases, people will set aside their own personal beliefs or adopt the opinion of the rest of the group."

I recognise that from the students' union and the world of work. Add it to the echo chamber effect of social media and you've got an influencing factor. Equally true of those on the leave side too, of course! Not suggesting it swung the vote, but I think it's arrogant to suggest that all leave votes came from a cool, rational assessment of the facts whereas leave was all the xenophobic thickies.

RichPenny hope it works out with your daughter.

Del - don’t worry when the posse are in full flow neither the facts nor what their target actually says is of any relevance. And apart from chewkw’s brief appearance elsewhere to distract them, they need to create an issue to allow them get their daily abuse fix. ‘‘Twas always thus

IGM, sorry missed you post last night - lost among the surrounding vitriole 😉 . We could try and a pint would be fun to drink and have bought for me 😉 since we have done the preps to death and the issues are pretty clear cut. The alternatives and options are very clear cut, we simply need to end the uncertainty so we know which choice to make. The work has all been done.

We've been through this before, they will need sorting out at some point

True and true

I do like a challenge THM. And I’m very creative at times. 8)

Did you hear the R4 program on Trump? 42 minutes and you can’t be that in-depth in that length of time on R4, but thought provoking, particularly strangely enough with regard to the future of the EU. Arguably Trump is inadvertently creating quite a nice space for them to move into.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09cz05b

No I didn’t. Perhaps listen on the way home. Thanks for the link

Won’t go into details here but the ironic thing in my work is the biggest losers are the Europeans!! So it’s a great benchmark for see whether wider interests are sacrificed for narrow national self interest. We shall see

but the ironic thing in my work is the biggest losers are the Europeans!!

You are in optimisation fiscale then.

True and true

That being your belief, why did you write:

The three conditions are only there to delay real negotiations.

❓

Because they are. Why would I write anything else?

This is the tried and tested approach of the EU. They have honed this skill to perfection so that they control the narrative perfectly and people swallow their approach hook,line and sinker

And who is - what is your word? - being dim?

I assume that among the froth people have read what third country citizenship means for UK nationals ?

Hadn’t realised it had been defined yet. Any link THM?

To what ?

If it’s TC citizenship the EU present clear documentation on what is involved as we do. There are certain aspects that become in PITA in both cases which is why the issue should be agreed jointly not unilaterally

First and foremost HMG had a responsibility to UK citizens. So far they are prioritising that correctly

There are many UK nationals who face legal limbo too

This is the tried and tested approach of the EU. They have honed this skill to perfection so that they control the narrative perfectly and people swallow their approach hook,line and sinker

Which Is why the Gov should have looked into other options rather than signing A50.

We've been in the EU long enough to know how they operate.

But putting personal political ambitions over country well the rest is gonna be history.

What is A50 and why was it signed?

Why did HM Opposition call for it to be triggered immediately?

Because no-one on either side had the guts to stand up to the rabid press and brexiteers and tell them to come back when they had a realistic plan.

As I've said before (up-thread) the political class seem to live in a bubble where they are used to the world bending to their policy announcements. Problem is, brexit is too big and complicated for this, they can't just say "brexit means brexit" and expect it all to fall into place, any more than "everyone can have a unicorn" would magic the mythical beast into existence. It's not technically achievable within the A50 straitjacket and time scale. End of story.

FFS, THM, give up on the question marks and insults. We aren't "dim" you just never contribute anything tangible and then complain people haven't understood.

You have issues man, see a psycholigist or something, but stop taking your frustrations out on the poor folk of STW.

Oh I see.

I had better tear up the A50 text that I have in my file as it’s obviously “nonsense”. Honestly you would think that these EU people would draw up documentation that stood up to better scrutiny wouldn’t you?

No wonder we lost the vote...

Correct ED. I am the one who is dim. Zokes has told us more than once.

Your contributions are a list of untruths that are immediately falsifiable. Ask yourself who has problems before throwing that insult around. As a posse member you like to bully people in here don’t forget and you have succeeded.

How can someone post that we shouldn’t sign A50* without understanding what it is?? That’s what you should be frustrated with unless you want to continue in a parallel universe of remoaner untruths

Just read A50 (2)

[b]?[/b]

I'm sure it all makes sense in THM-world

As I recall it was a Brit wot wrote A50 THM. 😉

Misunderstood what you were referring to on citizenship - as you were.

Yes and he never thought anyone would be stupid enough to invoke it.

You may be correct I have no idea

But A50 is what it is - not much in itself, about 250 words IIRC and pretty bland stuff. Para 2 is important though

Why did HM Opposition call for it to be triggered immediately?

That'd be coz of 'the will of the people' politicians were suddenly very scared of

Or it could have been a cunning ruse to pressure May into what was arguably her biggest mistake (& she's made sooo many), triggering A50 before they were prepared, with no plan & even consensus among government about what Brexit meant*..

*May's trademark vacuous soundbites aside

But A50 is what it is - not much in itself

Agreed - was surprised when I read it.

You're rambling now, go on, tear up that A50 text. It was a Brit that wrote it and don't include me in "we" because despite having British nationality I didn't have a vote.

You're a pawn in the paracitic money-grabbing game that not only led to this, THM, but also means the EU has to be really careful when dealing with the UK because you City banking types want Britain as a cheating, dirty-dealing tax haven. You and your colleagues are a major part of the problem and a serious limit on how far the UK can be trusted - because UK financiers specialize in tax avoidance with the help of whatever British government is in power. At each stage in negotiations Davies presents stuff and then the EU finds he's cheating i.e. publically saying one thing but presenting a document in which there's a line somewhere that devalues the whole thing.

There's a culture of conniving and deceit which might dupe the ignorant masses but wont get past the likes of Barnier.

Do you feel better now Ed? That’s a lot of angst you are carrying around.

IGM - how many people do you reckon have read and/or know what A50 is? How much BS can be written about 250 words?

Disenfranchisement can lead to angst. Funny that.

You are not the only person who bothers to read these things THM, why keep suggesting so?

I need to stay away from this thread for a while again… whether it's 'feeding' or 'bullying', the result is the same… time wasted engaging with one participant.

RichPenny - Member

Yep, definitely parity between your job and nursery arrangements an me not seeing my daughter for all of the year. Here's a tip: You're a *.
Posted 10 hours ago # Report-Post

You quoted my post and glibly stated "that's nice", and if you want to win the STW Brexit Olympics, and if Brexit means your daughter is going to be incarcerated for year then you win, but that doesn't make me a * for pointing out the real choices I've already had to make in anticipation of a worst case scenario Brexit.

I'm well aware that STW is a predominantly British based forum and as such whatever happens in Ireland might as well be on the moon but there's a very real possibility that daily life for hundreds of thousands of people in border communities in the North and South could be drastically altered by Brexit, and most people over 30 have already lived through that reality already and so know what's in store if a hard border is re-instated.

I know there's no appetite for discussing this here as threads on the subject have petered out after about five pages, and that's fine. We don't care that you don't care and that's how it has always been 😉

I’m not. Just odd that after reading things (apparently) anyone would post something that ignores what has just been read. Very strange

Sorry jimjam, but the border was the main thing that some of us raised from the very start of this thread, long before the vote. There is a good reason why the NI border is up there, together with the issues of splitting up families, as the biggest concerns of many… and why it is upfront in negotiations… it is not just a "delaying tactic", it is crucial. Plenty of us "care", but we don't have much of a say. Sorry again.

No angst at all, some good decisions an a deep mistrust of the British electorate mean I can look on as possibly the most impartial obsever on this forum.

I'll go further. The financial lobbyists have inluenced British government inot a series of policy changes over a 30 year period that diverted money away from the working poor and at the same time reduced taxation of teh very rich and big business. This has lead to an increaseing divide in terms of disposable income, health care, education, levels of debt... . A large part of the population has good reason to be angry.

Media propoganda has diverted that anger away from the real culprits, the financiers (yes you), to: terrorists, the EU, Sadam, the EU, peadophiles, the EU, immigrants, the EU, Merkel, the EU, people on benefit, the EU... but you know who's really screwing over Britian, you.

A quick reminder that most in the financial sector wanted us to stay in the EU Edukator.

Right… I'll shut up now.

That deoen't mean the actions of the financial sector over 30years aren't behind the reasons brexiteres voted Brexit. I'm sure Louis XVI wanted to France to reamin a monarchy. It's just that he'd so abused the monarchy system that the condidtions he'd created led to a revolution.

Wow Ed thanks. So I single handidly have the ability to screw Britain. Little old me. Wow I never knew.

(I understand now why you were making reference to needing help earlier)

Your abuse become more fanciful even fantastic by the day

With regard to A50, it is more notable for the things it doesn’t say than the things it does.

I suspect though, and this is a real source of worry and concern even for you as it is what gives rise to the uncertainty, that when people say A50 they mean the gloriously inexact process to be followed after a letter stating we are leaving.

It is looking more and more like we will leave the EU against the true will of the people though isn’t it. Even folk who want to leave don’t seem to think that the way we’re going to leave will be good for them.

Maybe you’re right though and a hero will appear in the 3rd act to save the negotiations.

so talks back on today

I imagine Davis is stocking up on Dutch courage as we speak, before swiftly hiding the single malt bottle in suitcase and having a tic-tac

Will May be ready & willing to splash the cash?

Or is it the new year b4 the talks about the transition talks can begin so we have space to think about beginning the talks for the post-tranistion deal....?

Even folk who want to leave don’t seem to think that the way we’re going to leave will be good for them.

the good folk of Grimsby certainly seem a bit confused

I'm sure Louis XVI wanted to France to reamin a monarchy. It's just that he'd so abused the monarchy system that the condidtions he'd created led to a revolution.

I'm hatching a plan 😉

English doen't allow me to differentiate between the collective you and invidual you. German has Du, Sie and Ihr.

I'd be surprised if you've contributed much personally, you couldn't possibly have the time given that you're on here more than me and I dodn't have a job. Some of the yous were persoanl I'm sure you'll work it out.

Serously, what have you (lot) contributed in recent years:

A sub prime crisis

Speculative attacks on Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain and even the UK going back a bit further

Tax evasion on a huge scale

Asset stripping of viable industries and businesses

predatory takeovers

speculative bubbles

the formation of cartels and monopolistic positions

government spending baling out incompetent finance houses and banks

The losers in all these are the general public, meanwhile the bankers walkk away with their illgotten (but legally obtained) gains. The divide grows

Vive la révolution !

IGM - polls for what they are worth indicate otherwise

Why would people be against the government negotiating a FTA deal to ensure our access to the single market? Among odd behaviour, that would be very odd indeed