I have resisted posting on this subject as it’s a bit like Marmite, but one sad thing that everyone should contemplate with the recent goings on in the HoC is that centuries of democracy have been overturned.
Now I know there are people out there rejoicing at the decision to not implement the democratic mandate and leave the EU (Single Market, Customs Union, ECJ), but all I can say is that a precedent has now been set and who knows what impact this is going to have on future democratic votes when they can so easily be overruled by the HoC.
I think it’s very sad and I am getting my “Democracy is Dead” T Shirt printed soon.
FYI, Britain has only been a democracy since early 20th century.
Yep. That's a burn, lol!
Wow, bold claim, comes across as a snivelling little gobshite who knows some long words and seeks to come up with excuses at every turn while taking no responsibility.
ah so not like putin then
Watching the Eu mps on tv to be fair to them i think they dont actually give much of a shit
except tusk ...who also isnt like putin and doesnt use big words like the muggster
FYI, Britain has only been a democracy since early 20th century.
That's if you define democracy as universal suffrage. But that's not the only type of democracy.
People have some funny ideas about the definition of words. There can be good and bad democracies - it's not a synonym for 'fair' 'just or 'good' as some people seem to think.
everyone should contemplate with the recent goings on in the HoC is that centuries of democracy have been overturned
I fail to see how the democratically elected HoC doing its job is the death of democracy, rather the HoC simply rubber stamping everything because in a very very vague way its loosely what the public want* would be a complete betrayal of our democratic system just as every mp voting aye for everything the government puts forward and no on anything else because the government won one of our every 4 ish year referenda would be ridiculous. (note we're allowed to change our minds on who should run the country)
FYI, Britain has only been a democracy since early 20th century.
Fair point, but a precedent has still been set.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1110990609047797773
Not exactly sure what is going on in the ERG drugs cabinet
Fair point, but a precedent has still been set.
Details please.., what exactly has been betrayed? How did this go against the rule of law in the UK?
The last few loyal Tory MP's are offering us an easy way out, an end to all of this we just need to say yes and we can go back to our lives
Is this the democracy flanagaj is pining for?
[The DUP] will never vote for anything that threatens NI’s place in the union or risks a united Ireland
Yet they've always been pro-Brexit. I wonder how they expected it to play out?
Yet they’ve always been pro-Brexit. I wonder how they expected it to play out?
I know it's a cliché to use the term 'useful idiots' but that's exactly what the DUP are, pawns.
Yes they've been given huge bribes but they must be starting to realise now that they are just there to make the numbers up, nothing more.
I always assumed the DUP were gunning for a hard brexit, a hard border, and a return to the "good" old days.
and a return to the “good” old days.
I always assumed the DUP were gunning for a hard brexit, a hard border, and a return to the “good” old days.
Maybe they are, but thier views are incompatible with the Belfast agreement if that's the case, an international peace treaty that trumps any of our pseudo-domestic wrangling.
The DUP have always hated the GFA as well as hating everything else. NO surrender! Papist mummeries!
Basically the DUP spend a long time nodding their heads pretending they understand what is going on and then after carefully trying to look like they are deliberating they shout NO!!!
And that was just offering them a cup of tea.
and Friday was planned for the 3 line whip
who knows what impact this is going to have on future democratic votes when they can so easily be overruled by the HoC.
None, other than a few angry headbangers who haven't got their own way.
The UK is a representative democracy where parliament is sovereign. The HoC is supposed to act without influence from external sources, that's precisely what "sovereign" means.
Giving precedence to an opinion poll over the will of parliament is the very antithesis of UK democracy. Far from democracy being dead, the HoC "taking back control" from the angry mob is enforcing it.
I wonder how they expected it to play out?
I wondered what they were thinking before concluding they werent.
Outside of ripping off the taxpayer I think all they have is hating those Catholic types.
Being charitable demographics are against them over time so maybe they are just wanting to hit the reset button and hope the rest of the UK will give enough of a toss to bail them out of the mess they then create.
Can we s tick to cold hard facts
mike if we did that 90% of this thread would disappear!
I reckon May should pull that billion or two bribe back from NI that would teach the DUP not to back her 🙂
Giving precedence to an opinion poll
Plus Parliament can always pass an act for a binding referendum (okay technically they can still skip it since cant bind future governments) like the AV referendum.
However that would need a shedload more information before going into it.
mike if we did that 90% of this thread would disappear!
That is OK then we can dismiss the death of democracy as another whiney brexiter having a tantrum then.
I reckon May should pull that billion or two bribe back from NI that would teach the DUP not to back her
Still wont get her majority, you have to think also the BJ and JRM only agreed to say they would magnanimously back the deal against their better judgements knowing full well it would never get through or be put to the people.
Indicative results in shortly - Sky were reporting Confirmation Ref was showing best
the DUP thang is so wack man, they either stop mays deal or the government falls if it passes.
mike if we did that 90% of this thread would disappear!
More like about 10% including your post.
@Cougar I think you are forgetting the collated works of out Brexit Fantasists Amendments J, N and C 🙂 they did account for quite a lot of BS.
Couple of key results imminent here
I can’t see MV3 happening now, Bercow has shot it down, and depending on outcome of tonight’s votes the house won’t be so fearful of a no-deal by accident.
As about 3 pages back, MPs aren’t scared of whips and leaders anymore, the ERG over-played their hand, if they jumped during MV2 we’d be leaving on Friday, but they didn’t. I suspect the outcome of IV will be single market via a possible Ref2. You never know, remain might even be on the ballot!
More like about 10% including your post
Yep the other 90% is just mike
Just heard on BBC News a new angle on the labour MPs. Apparently even in Labour “Leave Seats”, the Labour voters were majority Remain.
Yeah stats to make sense, I'm amazed it's taken them that long, extension officially passed
think you are forgetting the collated works
Good point, well made.
Extension was a given though, regardless of whetheryou want to remain or leave, as regardless of what the parliament decides, more time is needed.
Plus, International Law trumps UK Law, and the official date has already been moved in International Law.
So in news...
Cabinet are abstaining on indicative votes
We had not time to implement an indicative voting computer system (estimated 15 years and £9bn) 😉
Member
I have resisted posting on this subject as it’s a bit like Marmite, but one sad thing that everyone should contemplate with the recent goings on in the HoC is that centuries of democracy have been overturned.Now I know there are people out there rejoicing at the decision to not implement the democratic mandate and leave the EU (Single Market, Customs Union, ECJ), but all I can say is that a precedent has now been set and who knows what impact this is going to have on future democratic votes when they can so easily be overruled by the HoC.
I think it’s very sad and I am getting my “Democracy is Dead” T Shirt printed soon.
Im sorry but this is a load of missinformed bull
nowhere on the ref ballot sheet or the small print on the leaflet did it specify what the brexit end point would look like- SM, CU, ECJ etc
it said it would be a negotiated settlement
your version of brexit might be one thing but unfortunately you were lied to if you think thats the definitive one
the fact that the fantasists in the ERG etc are still pushing this kind of BS is whats killing democracy, not your failure to understand the (admittedly ridiculous) contortions of the referendum & the campaigns
it was a binary question where one answer meant multiple things
thats why MPs have spent 3 years arguing what it means
its why Brexit means Brexit was such a fatuous comment & it belied the inevitable political chaos
So, MV3 fails one way or another and May stays. Boris and Mogg shafted themselves in front of the nation. Did May know the DUP position in advance? And were they told to delay their statement til boris shat himself?
Oh god I hope so
I fail to see how the democratically elected HoC doing its job is the death of democracy,
Indeed, it is the very essence of democracy.
I really hope that there is a remain option coming out on top as the BBC are bringing out ERG members for some soundbites to play back to them
https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/595112367358406656
Was it THM who said “May was playing a blinder” or words to that affect?
More like playing as if she was blind!
F me - no wonder The Thick of it can’t get a new series.....she’s been comprehensively outmanoeuvred by a bunch of backward thinking, navel gazing retards from the 19th C!
How fing thick do you have to be for that to happen?!
🤣
Anyway
as for tonights shenanigans.........
the absolute cowardice of Moggy hiding behind the DUP to make his decision for him
the now traditional ritual humiliation of May, Andrew Bridgen & Mark Francois in a competition to be the most fat headed, jingoistic moron in parliament
the pig headded insanity & stupidity of hardcoe ERG, Baker, Braveman, Jenkyns, Cash, Hoey etc & DUP
Hehe - loving reports of Steve Bakers speech - he was apparently so 'consumed by a ferocious rage' he got a hug from Rees-Mogg 🙂
I'm hoping May can at least get the cash back from the DUP - I suspect we'll need it at this rate...
Was it THM who said “May was playing a blinder” or words to that affect?
More like playing as if she was blind!
I wish David Blunkett was still in the house to make a good quip about that one 🙂
and I'll add if STW can sort out the code so that the thread knows how many pages are on a thread I'd consider voting for Brexit!!
I await with bated breath the return of THM,to announce his crack team of grownups to sort all this out.I understand that the short list includes Geoffrey,Zippy and Bungle ,from Rainbow,The Reverend Ian Paisley,U Thant ,and Temujin,all for a balanced team.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1111020834473283586
Beckett and Clarke top 2
2nd Ref and Perm Customs usion
Nothing with a majority, but it's interesting to see which ones had the most votes.
nah it was jambalya that said May was playing a blinder
THM just kept assuring us that growups behind the scenes would make it work as well as saying 'what if May just squeaks a deal through, itll be amazing'
If I'm watching the news correctly, nothing has passed, so MV3 is now back with no amendments?
OK fine but it won't pass do then what?
Complete paralysis...
To also point out I think the top 2 are better supported than May's deal.
SoS for Exit wrote his statement before he knew the numbers
Ah, apologies....after a while I couldn’t tell those 2 bloated plumbs apart..
clowns.
Ooh,Jambafacts,I remember them.
Rowdy in there tonight isn't it?
Here Here for Anna Soubry there!!
For the logical gymnasts out there no Cabinet ministers were allowed to vote and the softest brexit and Confirmation vote got in above that. It's hard to bring back MV3 when it's less popular than the other options??
As I mentioned earlier, the DUP will never sacrifice the union for brexit.
Money spunked away by May. Gambled on their support to keep them in power but ultimately it would bring the tories down.
If only there was a word, preferably German, to describe this type of situation...
Blitzkreig?
Here Here for Anna Soubry there!!
I could just about hear her until the BBC faded her out and started talking over her!
Anna Soubry, who left the Conservatives to join the Independent Group, says "this is a 2 stage process - today was to see where the biggest support may be.
"A customs union got 264 votes and the biggest of all was a 'People's Vote'," she says, adding that both of these options received more votes than the prime minister's deal has on previous occasions.
"We go forward to Monday to find a compromise," she says.
"It is becoming increasingly obvious that the prime minister's deal needs to go back to the people," she adds.
Any clues what comes next then?
MW3 Friday if Bercow allows it, but probably won’t pass.
Long extention and another 6 months of this bullshit? EU will want Ref2 I’d guess.
Customs union and Ref2, so close, such a shame.
Friday fail, Monday panic??
Every motion loses
No deal loses 160-400
Common Market 2.0 loses 188-283
Efta/EEA loses 65-377
Customs union loses 264-272
Labour alt plan loses 237-307
Revoke A50 loses 184-293
2nd referendum loses 268-295
Managed no deal loses 139-422
and some bright thought this was a good a idea to put to the nation as a binary choice. 😕
Any clues what comes next then?
The grown ups take charge clearly and the maybot will unveil her masterplan.
Customs union and Ref2, so close, such a shame.
So close and another hand grenade lobbed in by TM halfway through by failing to resign.
We have no WA come monday, I do think this is leading to a GE which will have a lot of mud to be thrown.
How the hell can the opposition not pull in 300 votes for any option??
I do think this is leading to a GE which will have a lot of mud to be thrown
which is what JC wanted ages ago.
How the hell can the opposition not pull in 300 votes for any option??
This is stage 1, first bit is see what the feel is remove a couple and come back with more of an idea
2nd referendum with all those options on a proportional representation basis and parliament must implement the result.
Pinched from twitter.
Vote in Parliament on whether to have a 2nd referendum ~
Noes 295 (52%)
Ayes 268 (48%)
Well, another Parliamentary shitshow. If they drop the least popular option and vote again it will be even worse. The No Deal voters will never vote For something so this was as good as it gets.
Bring on the guillotines.
But they were all supposed to vote for any option they could stomach. Once again it shows their ignorance & arrogance imho.
How the hell can the opposition not pull in 300 votes for any option??
no one wants to be left holding the shit sandwich.
Hilary Benn hopes that May will listen to Parliament after IV2 on Monday.
Not much chance of that I'd have thought
5 ministers voted for CU
Mark Field (Foreign Office)
Stephen Hammond (Health and Social Care)
Margot James (Digital, Culture, Media and Sport)
Anne Milton (Education)
Rory Stewart (Justice)
What we do see is there is no desire for anything other than the softest brexit if we have to go
are these the fabled adults THM was banging on about?? The back bechers running the show, consolidate the options, make it a preference vote
Surely, if only for a sense of fairness those options should be put before the HoC again and possibly for a third time? 😉
Surely, if only for a sense of fairness those options should be put before the HoC again and possibly for a third time?
2nd referendum has already had at least three goes, but Customs Union would be an absolute disaster - worst of the worst.
Good to hear some sensible people out there. if TM believes in her deal and she knows the will of the people to back her put it to the people - ask them in a referendum. If you know that people want to back you then put it to the people!!
So ****ing simple
2nd referendum has already had at least three goes, but Customs Union would be an absolute disaster – worst of the worst.
really?
saves us from being at the mercy of our own government making trade deals
looking at the competence weve seen over the last 3 years.........
2nd referendum has already had at least three goes, but Customs Union would be an absolute disaster – worst of the worst.
So what is your way forward Mefty? How do you get this through?
Nice to see Bill Cash ranting on about how it's not his fault as he is defending the will of the people as based on the referendum and not voting for May's deal is not his problem....