Houns
Member
Lammy for Labour leader/PM
A smart guy who speaks well but unfortunately the wrong colour skin given how racism is colouring our political debate.
https://twitter.com/robdothutton/status/1110895020209516544?s=21
So… vote Labour to ensure Brexit and prevent a referendum… or something.
Lammy for Labour leader/PM
Gets my vote but if I had to keep it white then Tom Watson isn't a bad choice
I hate to break it to you but Glastonbury aint exact common joe terrority nowadays.
True that. I last went about 13 years ago and that was because I managed to win a free ticket.
So with Lammy,starmer and Watson we have a reasonable choice.
The Tories have no one.
The Tories have no one.
I'd almost* like to see Gove or Johnson take up the role they want so much - just to see how badly they cope.
(* I used to think that parliament protected us a little from a rogue PM, but I'm starting to question that).
Although I have to admire the sheer madness of someone saying they would not vote Labour even if it lets the tories win bearing in mind chances that the tories will be taken over by the ERG fan club.
At that point Labour won't be able to implement any of the good stuff because the country won't have a lot to pi55 in, so they're better off out of it, and if you're going to get bummed the least you can do is look them in the eye before you bend over.
Genuinely, what ***ING difference would it make then?
Lammy for Labour leader/PM
Nah, I don't think he'd manage it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Chuka Umunna returns to the fold to lead, if the possible collapse of Momentum happens.
Either way, I suspect once Brexit is resolved, or at least kicked down the road for another two years, both the main parties will be in the mood to restructure and re-focus. I see the landscape changing massively once the dust settles.
Chuka Umunna would be more suitable as a tory leader than labour, he isn't a centrist (even in the current situation where chicago school economics laughably claim to be centrists), he is right wing.
Chuka is a self aggrandsising areshole who (like the tory public school boys) believes in his right to lead without ever showing any abilaty or aptitude to do so.
Although I have to admire the sheer madness of someone saying they would not vote Labour even if it lets the tories win bearing in mind chances that the tories will be taken over by the ERG fan club.
I can't speak for the rest of the UK of course, but:
1) balls to tactical voting ever again, balls to political tribalism and balls to fear-voting. The last few years have been an education of sorts. I'd vote for a good Tory Party over a bad Labour Party any day of the week, but more than that, I'll vote for the party that best represents my views, even if it's 'meaningless'. Hell, if this current sense of MP empowerment continues, I'll actually vote for the local candidate who best represents my views whatever colour ribbon they wear. I might as well do, my Local Labour MP wouldn't be popular with Momentum so they'll probably try to deselect her anyway.
2) The ERG hold, or held a decent amount of power for the last few months, but only because of May's tiny coalition majority. They may well force her to leave, but the majority of Tory MPs don't like or trust the ERG, they won't get one of their members in the Leaders seat.
Chuka Umunna would be more suitable as a tory leader than labour, he isn’t a centrist (even in the current situation where chicago school economics laughably claim to be centrists), he is right wing.
Chuka is a self aggrandsising areshole who (like the tory public school boys) believes in his right to lead without ever showing any abilaty or aptitude to do so.
This
He is one of many MPs ( mainly labour) who join whichever party they think will give them the best chance of winning power not the party that they are most aligned with in philosophy.
Nige is now suggesting a long delay to “reset” the process.
Just in case there are EU elections?
I’ll vote for the party that best represents my views
Makes sense. But if there is a GE and Brexit is still rumbling on, remaining in the EU will be my primary concern and will be 99% of the reason my vote goes where it does. Tactical or not.
So with Lammy,starmer and Watson we have a reasonable choice.
I'd cheerfully vote for them but Momentum won't be handing the party back any time soon and there's no way they'd countenance any of them as leader, they haven't come this far to hand the party back to moderates.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Chuka Umunna returns to the fold to lead, if the possible collapse of Momentum happens.
I'd cheerfully vote for him, but Momentum aren't going anywhere so it's a fantasy.
no one does vitriol better than dominic cummings
He is one of many MPs ( mainly labour) who join whichever party they think will give them the best chance of winning power not the party that they are most aligned with in philosophy.
Which makes a lot of sense, you can't achieve anything good without the first step - "getting power".
I’d almost* like to see Gove or Johnson take up the role they want so much – just to see how badly they cope.
As a Scottish Nationalist I would love to see Boris get the job.
I’d cheerfully vote for them but Momentum won’t be handing the party back any time soon
So what we need next time is all the centre-lefties to join the Labour party as well to vote against momentum. The party membership could end up huge!
I hope you explained to them hat is because of UK rules, not the EU, the UK could if it wished allow a simple and cheap emigration from commonwealth countries.
or it could have a uniform immigration policy for everyone, not being hampered by what the EU thinks it should have.
no one does vitriol better than dominic cummings
He seems to be accepting that we aint leaving. (A conclusion I came to the morning after the referendum.)
Yes, the answer would be to relax immigration rules for commonwealth people, not increase them for EU citizens.
the answer would be to be able to control the desired immigration via uniform controls that affect everyone/everywhere equally.
So what we need next time is all the centre-lefties to join the Labour party as well to vote against momentum. The party membership could end up huge!
Maybe people will, but since almost every political party is fighting to attract centrist floating voters, there's really no need to join a party to change it - easier to simply vote for another party.
the answer would be to be able to control the desired immigration via uniform controls that affect everyone/everywhere equally.
Like Canada, for instance? Seems reasonable.
easier to simply vote for another party.
That trick works for a while but sooner or later the parties support vanishes when they realise that the party no longer gives a **** about them and just cares about the self declared centrists.
At which point the, properly, hard left and right parties start getting a look in as well as other forms of disruption like, ohhh, voting for brexit as a protest against the "career politicians" which seems to mean more the identikit join any party for power as opposed to the career politicans like Farage.
parties support vanishes when they realise that the party no longer gives a **** about them and just cares about the self declared centrists.
Not all the self declared centrists. Just the handful who happen to live in marginal seats.
Democracy sucks, feel free to suggest something better.
And to think guy Fawkes was the baddie
no one does vitriol better than dominic cummings
given that he's just found in contempt of parliament, and will in all likelihood be hung out to dry by the multi millionaires behind Vote Leave, it's probably best to get your revenge in first.
the answer would be to be able to control the desired immigration via uniform controls that affect everyone/everywhere equally.
global FOM
I like it!
I imagine both the Tories and Labour are keeping a close on their own polls.Corbyn being equivocal about a 2nd ref, may well be the best pragmatic approach at present.If labour did come out strongly for a 2nd ref,then they may well gets lots of votes from the remainers but they could still tank overall if a snap general election was called esp.if the Tories took a different stance making a GE an almost binary choice.Careful what you wish for because unlikely and as unpalatable as it may seem a big Tory win could push us into an even harder Brexit.
Democracy sucks, feel free to suggest something better.
Thats easy enough. A democratic system which is semi up to date and has managed to move more than a couple of steps beyond rotten boroughs and allowing the plebs a vote.
Democracy sucks, feel free to suggest something better.
Dictatorship with me in charge sounds good to me.
dissonance
Subscriber
Democracy sucks, feel free to suggest something better.
Thats easy enough. A democratic system which is semi up to date and has managed to move more than a couple of steps beyond rotten boroughs and allowing the plebs a vote.
something like the scottish system? Hybrid almost PR with a threshold for getting representation of around 5% IIRC and that makes it almost impossible to have a majority of seats without a majority of votes?
Government set to be crucified tonight:
The government has been defeated on a vote on the business motion by 331 to 287, allowing indicative votes to go ahead.
Also
"My understanding is the DUP have made very clear they are not going to vote for the prime minister's deal.
"Jacob Rees-Mogg, my boss as chairman of the ERG, has always said consistently he will not vote contrary to the DUP.
"So, if the DUP hold good to their word, and they're honourable people in my experience, they will vote against the deal. Therefore, so will Jacob and, I believe, so will the bulk of the ERG.
"The government want to bring MV3 [a third 'meaningful vote'] back tomorrow. They are desperately trying to peel people away in order to facilitate it. At the moment, it's not working."
Sorry, going back a bit but an hour is a long time on this thread:
I know nothing of Tom Watson but he hasn’t annoyed me when he’s been on telly.
Any reason I shouldn’t want him to lead labour?
I know someone who worked for the government for a couple of years a little while back. I've heard positive and negative things about a lot of people in the cabinet but Tom Watson was the only politician they consistently and repeatedly said nothing but good things about.
They held Watson in the highest regard and they're a source I trust implicitly. Based solely on that feedback I'd have him as Labour leader in a heartbeat.
No deal will go down in flames, again.
Corbyn's 'same but different' I can't see it passing.
I think we're left with a few options for a softer brexit, plus a 2nd ref and automatic revoke.
Oh and Marcus Fysh's 2 year single market thing which I don't think the EU will like.
No Deal (B) – John Baron (Conservative)
Agrees to leave the EU on 12 April without a deal.
Common market 2.0 (D) – Nick Boles (Conservative)
Government joins the European Economic Area (EEA) through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), and negotiates a temporary customs union until alternative arrangements can be found.
EFTA and EEA (H) – George Eustice (Conservative)
Remains in the European Economic Area (EEA), and applies to re-join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).
Declines to form a customs union but seeks “agreement on new protocols relating to the Northern Ireland border and agri-food trade”.
Customs union (J) – Ken Clarke (Conservative)
Enshrine the objective to form a customs union in primary legislation.
Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Jeremy Corbyn
Negotiate changes to the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration to secure Labour’s position, and pass these objectives into law.
Revocation to avoid no deal (L) – Joanna Cherry (SNP)
If the Withdrawal (Agreement) Bill has not been passed before exit day, the government will ask MPs to approve no deal. If this does not pass, the government will revoke Article 50.
Confirmatory public vote (M) – Margaret Beckett (Labour)
Government cannot implement or ratify the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration unless and until they have been approved in a referendum.
Contingent preferential arrangements (O) – Marcus Fysh (Conservative)
Malthouse Plan B: The UK makes its budgetary contributions to the EU to the end of 2020 and agrees with the EU a period of two years in which UK goods have full access to the EU.
Bercow also says MV3 this week needs to demonstrate a differnece from MV2
What's the significance of the ballot paper colour (green, pink etc)?
What’s the significance of the ballot paper colour (green, pink etc)?
I was wondering that too, must mean something given the fuss.
Makes sense. But if there is a GE and Brexit is still rumbling on, remaining in the EU will be my primary concern and will be 99% of the reason my vote goes where it does. Tactical or not.
I don't remember any time where we've been in the position we are currently.
People are voting Tory because they don't want Corbyn in power. Others are voting Labour because they don't want the Tories. Yet I don't know a single person that actually wants either circus show. They're voting to keep people out, not get people in.
And then these parties turn around and say we voted for this and this in the GE. No. No, we didn't. People voted to prevent the worst case scenario by succumbing to a slightly lesser one.
I'm with P-Jay. No tactical voting from me next time, not when the result is used so disingenuously.
Is that the list to be selected from or all options to be put forward to vote on? In whice case the snp you can have no deal of **** the **** right off one is good unless insanity breaks out.
Meanwhile government spunks £12m on flat for negotiation of US trade deals , i imagine it comes with a full wet room so our negotiator can hose themselves down after getting pumped by "Bubba"
global FOM
I like it!
Brilliant idea.
Is that the list to be selected from or all options to be put forward to vote on?
Come on amendment "L"!!!
Speaker John Bercow announces that he has selected the following eight choices:
No Deal (B) – John Baron (Conservative)
Agrees to leave the EU on 12 April without a deal.
Common market 2.0 (D) – Nick Boles (Conservative)
Government joins the European Economic Area (EEA) through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), and negotiates a temporary customs union until alternative arrangements can be found.
EFTA and EEA (H) – George Eustice (Conservative)
Remains in the European Economic Area (EEA), and applies to re-join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).
Declines to form a customs union but seeks “agreement on new protocols relating to the Northern Ireland border and agri-food trade”.
Customs union (J) – Ken Clarke (Conservative)
Enshrine the objective to form a customs union in primary legislation.
Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Jeremy Corbyn
Negotiate changes to the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration to secure Labour’s position, and pass these objectives into law.
Revocation to avoid no deal (L) – Joanna Cherry (SNP)
If the Withdrawal (Agreement) Bill has not been passed before exit day, the government will ask MPs to approve no deal. If this does not pass, the government will revoke Article 50.
Confirmatory public vote (M) – Margaret Beckett (Labour)
Government cannot implement or ratify the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration unless and until they have been approved in a referendum.
Contingent preferential arrangements (O) – Marcus Fysh (Conservative)
Malthouse Plan B: The UK makes its budgetary contributions to the EU to the end of 2020 and agrees with the EU a period of two years in which UK goods have full access to the EU.
Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Jeremy Corbyn
https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-tables-alternative-plan-close-economic-relationship-eu/
Hmmm.
Since there's 90pc opposition to "no deal" in the HOC I'd go for this:
If the Withdrawal (Agreement) Bill has not been passed before exit day, the government will ask MPs to approve no deal. If this does not pass, the government will revoke Article 50.
Of course then the MPs will get the blame instead of May so full expect 'kick it into the long grass' will win.
I imagine both the Tories and Labour are keeping a close on their own polls.Corbyn being equivocal about a 2nd ref, may well be the best pragmatic approach at present.If labour did come out strongly for a 2nd ref,then they may well gets lots of votes from the remainers but they could still tank overall if a snap general election was called esp.if the Tories took a different stance making a GE an almost binary choice.Careful what you wish for because unlikely and as unpalatable as it may seem a big Tory win could push us into an even harder Brexit.
I don't pretend to understand much about the mechanics of Westminster, but I think the idea of a GE is a bit fanciful. We're 18 months into this parliament, neither of the main parties will do anything but lose seats to smaller parties. Labour might fancy it to be rid of the Indies and some of their less 'enlightened' MPs through deselection, but, and this is often a tough lesson for Corbyn, you might have the best ideas the world has ever seen, but you can't do shit unless you actually win an election.
Come on amendment “L”!!!
I'd love it, but we might win the battle and lose the war. We revoke, we're 'stuck' in the EU for a decade - every swivel eyed right wing loon and Euro sceptic has all the ammo they need to 'prove' to the public the EU is the evil empire and we've all be cheated.
I'd accept it with a big smile and do a little dance when they close this thread forever.
But I think, if we really want to move on from this, we need a ref2 and a remain vote. Yeah the JRMs and Farages of the world will still cry about 'project fear' but it will be remembered that we could have left in 2019, but they voted against it.
Bercow pretty much ruling out MV3, would never has passed anyway, saved May a bit more humiliation
still shes got 1922 comittee at teat time!
still shes got 1922 comittee at teat time!
Bitty?
I’d love it, but we might win the battle and lose the war. We revoke, we’re ‘stuck’ in the EU for a decade – every swivel eyed right wing loon and Euro sceptic has all the ammo they need to ‘prove’ to the public the EU is the evil empire and we’ve all be cheated.
In which case a referendum will be called where a legally binding and acceptable withdrawl agreement, fully costed and explained will be put against remain as an option.
Are they voting on all tonight?
Meanwhile in Number 10 a similar discussion is going on about how May's deal is the only sensible option when it gets voted through
It will be the only option but nobody will vote for it, it's the only option.....
Yep 8 amentdments to be voted on tonight. better get the beers in!
which in the end will all cancel each other out
Yep 8 amentdments to be voted on tonight. better get the beers in!
Could be all over before then - DUP statement at 6, following May's 1922 meeting.
Anyone else think she's got them on side, and now is fairly confident she has the numbers.
Well BBC parliament has all kinds of views available
Some nice veiled threats from Andrew Percy 😉 I'll compromise but not as far as staying 😉 I think he might have read some of the whiney leave posts from STW 😉
Anyone else think she’s got them on side, and now is fairly confident she has the numbers.
Not the DUP
Union > Brexit
They will never vote for anything that threatens NI's place in the union or risks a united Ireland
Anyone else think she’s got them on side, and now is fairly confident she has the numbers.
I don't think that gives her the numbers still, she still can't push that through before the end of the debate and can't guarantee her remain rebels on board.
Well Kate Hoey claims Labour are whipping for 2nd Ref on this one.
Ohh she has handed in her notice before the next round of negotiations.
Which is, of course, the depressing bit. This was the prenegotiations which should have been the easier one. So how long will the proper one take.
Well when she finishes the first bit we can work that out, any end in sign yet??
Genius. Become so intolerably incompetent, obdurate and offensive to MPs and then offer to resign BUT only if Parliament vote for something it hates. See also JRM threatening to vote for the MV3 but only if DUP are on side first. Not very principled people this lot are they?
any end in sign yet??
Yes this Friday of course. Remember once a decision has been made it cant be undone since that would be undemocratic. The problem with her going is the nutters may vote for her deal working on the theory that they can then completely undermine and destroy it once they get one of their lot in charge. Already been murmurings that is a possibility.
Too late
Good news maybot 2001 has now VOWED the HS2 will go to the north of England..
I do hope that those who have the time are watching/listening to this BBC Parliament has the stream on now.
DUP statement been pulled till they hear what Bercow has to say on MV3 (or if May will offer them another £billion under the table...nudge...nudge...wink..wink....you ain’t seen me...roight?)
How many remained Tory Rebels are there? Hooey & Flint will vote against the labour whip, plus a few more. Are there enough Tory re,ainers with a conscience to block the latest ERG manoeuvres?
I think so given the numbers that have rebelled and the numbers making statements to that effect
So, even the acronyms and Roman numerals can’t keep up with this nonsense.
I saw ‘IV’ standing for ‘Indicative Vote’ but had to double-take as I thought for a second I’d missed Meaningful Vote III (the impossible vote) and we were approaching Meaningful Vote IV. The one where she fights Ivan Drago or somesuch.
We are an international laughing stock. Please make it stop.
Someone grow a pair, revoke A50 and say “well, what did you expect with your unicorns?”
Please.
Souby just about did, a few others getting there.
We also have some Tory MP's have been given their lines for this one - any mention of MP's changing their minds - suggest multiple referendums, never ending ones in fact #ProjectFear anyone?
also last list I've seen
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/70-tory-mps-may-deal-opposed
59 at the last count so still not eough - others like JRM need the are going to blame the DUP first
D'you know, I got back to the hotel as the sun was about to drop out of sight, Spiegel Im Spiegel on the headphones, and I got to thinking about Brexit and wondering what further outrages will be inflicted before the sun rises, and I could have cried, I could. I could have cried - still could.
/endvent
ERG Traitors are now flipping 😉 Backing the deal that is the worst deal and the betrayal to the Brexit that Fred from Clacton voted for. Going to be tight if she gets to bring the deal back - though if the indicative vote goes with confirmation vote it could help it through with that amended.
As an aside those MP's who are not invoking will of the people and betrayal are gaining my respect. We may not agree on every policy but a well thought out argument is a lot better than the other options of just shouting complaints or abuse.
What it does show is that the house is divided in many ways.
I'm more concerned that we might end up with Boris the cretin leading the next lot of negotiations.
mind you if the 120k tory party members vote him in I reckon they will have a fair few less mp's.
just horrifying thought that we will end up with that utter self serving arsebag as pm
mind you if the 120k tory party members vote him in I reckon they will have a fair few less mp’s.
just horrifying thought that we will end up with that utter self serving arsebag as pm
as is being pointed out a lot on twitter, if TMexit happens any leadership candidate will need to be an EU bashing mentalists who can out mental their opponents to win with the members - that will be the starting point of our future relationship.
A vote of no confidence seems like the preferable option
Meanwhile government spunks £12m on flat for negotiation of US trade deals ,
That's not a "flat" - that's bigger than my house, my sister's house and my parent's house combined!
I read all the info in the link there and it reminds me very much of a company I used to work for who had some sort of "Business and Sales Manager". He flew off to the US every 3 weeks for a week, 1st class every time, in theory at least he was promoting the company, getting business our way and it was more than paying for his flights and accommodation.
In practice, what he was doing was having a jolly old time on the golf courses and making his own connections. He got made redundant at the same time I did (so at least they'd seen through his little charade) but sadly he was on a 3-month notice period so they ha dto waste vast sums of money they didn't have paying him off.
This has all the same hallmarks. Hope the diplomat is a better negotiator than Theresa May.
A little light relief for you;
I have resisted posting on this subject as it's a bit like Marmite, but one sad thing that everyone should contemplate with the recent goings on in the HoC is that centuries of democracy have been overturned.
Now I know there are people out there rejoicing at the decision to not implement the democratic mandate and leave the EU (Single Market, Customs Union, ECJ), but all I can say is that a precedent has now been set and who knows what impact this is going to have on future democratic votes when they can so easily be overruled by the HoC.
I think it's very sad and I am getting my "Democracy is Dead" T Shirt printed soon.
but one sad thing that everyone should contemplate with the recent goings on in the HoC is that centuries of democracy have been overturned.
Can we s tick to cold hard facts - what has been overturned - specifically and exactly please.
Now I know there are people out there rejoicing at the decision to not implement the democratic mandate and leave the EU (Single Market, Customs Union, ECJ),
Many speakers in the house - which I'm sure you have been watching have repeatedly said is that we have a variety of leaves, the current withdrawal agreement does not match the Vote Leave (official leave group) position at the time of the referendum
but all I can say is that a precedent has now been set and who knows what impact this is going to have on future democratic votes when they can so easily be overruled by the HoC.
Can I suggest you read up on what actually is going on, and what the legal status of a referendum is.
I think it’s very sad and I am getting my “Democracy is Dead” T Shirt printed soon.
Check the first government being held in contempt of parliament.
so easily be overruled by the HoC.
This has only been possible because there is a minority government that is totally intransigent on its own proposal. In other circumstances Letwins amendment wouldn't stand a chance. In some ways this is happening because democracy has been stifled, and the fact that it has happened shows that our democracy is resilient even when we have someone who is trying to prevent it from functioning.
Parliament is sovereign. You should be pleased.
Rees mogg does seem to come across well on tv
a bit like putin
BTW is there a who's the next PM thread yet
Rees mogg does seem to come across well on tv
Wow, bold claim, comes across as a snivelling little gobshite who knows some long words and seeks to come up with excuses at every turn while taking no responsibility.