Why do people feel the need to lie ?
The EU hasn't "blocked" TTIP.
It can't go through without all 28 states and the European Parliament ratifying it.
Some EU states are refusing to ratify it. Most notably France.
I'd call that "effectively blocked (so far)"
Although most of it is in secret here is the report from the European Commission of the 13th round of negotiations.
Exactly. 13 rounds of negotiations. Over three years. If everyone agrees with it and it hasn't been blocked then what exactly are they negotiating?
For me the fact that it is being blocked and watered down is a good example of the EU working well.
FFS the whole TTIP idea came from the EU.
It's been "blocked" and "watered down" have you gone loopy?
It's very much alive.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/be91f3ca-273c-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde.html#axzz4CIqfj4iW
I say the result will be Remain 55.3% Leave 44.7%
Whatever the outcome, I think the tory party in it's current guise has had it. For many tory voters seeing Cameron sharing a stage with Corbyn was a step too far.
If the 'Vote Out' politicians want to capitalise on this referendum they will see that a large 'out vote' percentage could in theory take a party to victory in 4 years time.
Core Labour supports will never tory and vice versa.
Maybe a rebranded UKIP / new political party could make serious ground if they were smart over the next few years.
[quote="wheel2wheel"]You've got the wrong end of the stick . . .oh the irony. Where do you get your EU/immigration facts from? Daily Mail, UKIP or Boris?
. .
oh the irony. Where do you get your EU/immigration facts from? Daily Mail, UKIP or Boris?
More faux outrage, the Daily Mail is complete junk, so no thanks.
Will be expecting you lot to break out into Merkel youth songs soon . .
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/waste-cash-leavers-in-out-land-subsidie?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=178550&subid=11255125&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2 ]The shocking waste of cash even leavers won’t condemn[/url]
I am voting in one reason being to stop or fundamentally change TTIP. I reckon there is a better chance of this within the EU, not because the EU will oppose TTIP, but because some of the member states will. Our own tory government are very unlikely to oppose TTIP or a post Brexit equivalent.
my thoughts also.
Sorry I can't read the FT article ernie, it's behind their paywall. Can you summarise or give a free alternative?
It's been "blocked" and "watered down" have you gone loopy?
It's very much alive.
Yes it is. And I'm sure some agreement will eventually be reached.
But as you said yourself it has been forced through 13 rounds of negotiations and amendments, including our own amendment on the NHS.
We were able to do this because the size of the EU market gives us a relatively strong negotiating position.
If we were outside the EU then I think we'd have a much weaker negotiating position and our Yankophile government would have happily signed us up for whatever non-EU equivalent the US proposed.
So for me that's an overall plus point to the EU.
(and yes I agree that the secret nature of the trade negotiations is a minus point. But then I'm not sure how often details of UK international trade agreements are made public during the negotiation stages either)
I thought I remembered wheel2wheel (ironic name considering their arguments) of old, but they've only been here since the start of the referendum debate (April) and 4/5 threads they've posted on are political / referendum related.
Who are you W2W? I will return the favour if you care who I am.
FFS the whole TTIP idea came from the EU.It's been "blocked" and "watered down" have you gone loopy?
It's very much alive.
really, so it was singed up in 2015, as planned?
or this year? -
no
now, its supposed to be 2017, but its been admitted that is now very unlikely
Well John Major pretty much sums up my feelings on the blatant lies being peddled by the out camp
[i]Now, if our nation does vote to leave tomorrow, we must respect their decision. But if they vote to leave on the basis of half-truths and untruths and misunderstandings, then pretty soon the gravediggers of our prosperity will have some very serious questions to answer. They will have to account for what they have said and done. But that will be of no consolation. For we will be out, out for good, diminished as an influence upon the world, a truly Great Britain shrunk down to a little England, perhaps without Scotland, perhaps with a grumpy Wales, and certainly with a Northern Ireland divided from the south by the border controls that would then be the edge of the European Union. That is not how our island story should go.[/i]
In the event of us leaving, then a lot of people are going to realise very very quickly that they've been conned. That it was all built on lies, and that President Boris can't deliver any of the things he promised. And that he was well aware that he couldn't when he stood there and made those promises.
But by that point it'll be too late. The damage already done. And we'll have sacrificed our childrens futures on the alter of his enormous ego, ans monsterous sense of entitlement. Not that he'll give a ****, of course
Streets of London alive with Referendum chat engagement is high. Market stall Fruit and Veg seller is leave as where the lads fitting some new telecom cables in the street.
@igm
Just been reading the bike related stuff for a long time but not signed up.
It's not serious stuff, just seems like an echo chamber reading the political stuff here.
All meant in good spirit.
The young lad in our office is Leave.
So I told him not to bother coming in tomorrow if Leave win as we'll need to do a bit of down-sizing 🙂
I predict a 5-10% win margin for the Remain side.
I also predict a very big drop in Labour support because of this. Some have attributed the Torys winning the last election because they promised a referendum on europe, and Labour didnt. Labour have made it quite clear they are not there for the low paid working class - and the better paid working class vote Tory because thats what they think they are now.
A Remain win will see far right-wing politics here to stay sadly.
then a lot of people are going to realise very very quickly that they've been conned. That it was all built on lies, and that President Boris can't deliver any of the things he promised
They will blame the EU for it when the entirely predictable cluster **** arrives- they will still be blaming them in 2030
@tom I think thats true, parts of the EU are lurching right and further right tjat the UK. Even France a bastion if left wing polotics (and press) will eliminate Hollande and the socialists next year and have a run off between Front Nationale and the UMP/Sarkozy. Voting Remain for progressive solialism is a grave error I fear. Vote Leave and if we subsequently elect a left wing government then they can act freely
When Greece goes bust formally and the EU takes €150bn of losses and we have a mad scramble to hold the euro and the EU together we can assess the wisdom of whatever result there is Remain or Leave
How does one arrive at the idea that the EU will serve in some way to curtail TTIP?
How does one arrive at the idea that the EU will serve in some way to curtail TTIP?
Because so far TTIP [i]has[/i] been curtailed by the EU, whereas our glorious leader is a major backer and would sign us up tomorrow.
parts of the EU are lurching right and further right tjat the UK
Again I commend your attempts to get us to catch up with your constant abuse of immigrants, dog whistle race card playing attempts and the, equally ludicrous and offensive, suggestion the EU was responsible for the MP's death when a RW nut job killed her.
For the sweepstake, I imagine it will be 57/44 for In.
Close but no cigar for the Outies but probably close enough for Boris & Gove to be retained by the Tories for fear of creating a splinter within and using them as chips for the promise of fighting the EU from inside.
The proof is in the pudding.
In other words.....
TOTAL BS.
In other words.....
TOTAL BS.
Keep drinking the EU koolaid man. You're doing well . . .
wheel2wheel - Member
@igm
Just been reading the bike related stuff for a long time but not signed up.
It's not serious stuff, just seems like an echo chamber reading the political stuff here.
All meant in good spirit.
Ok understood., you are entitled to an opinion.
The comments you echoed on ashamed and traitors. A lass a few miles down the road from where I am now was told to be ashamed of herself (amongst others) by Farage last Wednesday and on Thursday someone shot her - the suspect proclaimed death to traitors when asked his name.
Today another local MP has received threats to her family because she is campaigning for remain - a woman I've met in this case.
All I ask, and this is to everyone not just W2W, think when you post - opinions a fine, but don't fan the flames. I'll try to do the same.
PS - I suspect I am one of the middle class STW types who does well out of the EU. I was considering Amsterdam / Netherlands for my children's university education to avoid university fees. 😉
I think the result will be a very narrow victory for Remain 51-52 / 48-49
Scotland and Northern Ireland will save England from themselves
I see the Bookies are mostly offering 3-1 on Brexit and 1-4 on remaining, which say all you need to know about what they think the result will be.
I have been swaying back and forth, but having listened to as much as possible on the subject, feel I will vote to remain. There are a lot of things I don't like, but probably take a lot for granted that I do like. 😐
sweepstake I am going for the exact same result as Scotland and Jamby accepting it was a resounding vote against his view just as he claimed that it was in Scotland - he will be silent for a generation ....just like the scots 😉
Realistically I think it will be closer and the real problem we have, whichever way it goes, is that the country will be divided and have lots of angry folk. Worse still the issue will not have been put to bed either whichever way it goes
much narrower than initially expected Remain win
GrahamS - MemberSorry I can't read the FT article ernie, it's behind their paywall. Can you summarise or give a free alternative?
Well the article in the FT which is 3 weeks old reports how the EU and the US are determined to keep TTIP on track.
But listen Graham, I've kept mostly off the 159 pages of pointless arguing on this thread.
On the one hand you have UKIP inspired xenophobic gibberish.
And on the other hand you have the "EU is awful but if you don't vote Remain a big bad Tory government will come and get you, and also it probably means that you support racists murdering people in our streets" argument.
Leavers want to focus on the hordes of Muslim terrorists queuing up to enter the UK because of the EU.
While the Remainers want to focus on personalities rather than real issues, ie, "Don't you just hate IDS, Gove, and Boris? Well then vote to remain in the EU".
The possibility of having a sensible debate on the issue is about as likely as me voting Tory.
So beyond making the occasional foray I quite frankly can't be arsed.
For the sweepstake, I imagine it will be 57/44 for In.
As the saying goes vote early, vote [b]often[/b]
I think it could go as high as 61/44 for In.
[i]I see the Bookies are mostly offering 3-1 on Brexit and 1-4 on remaining, which say all you need to know about what they think the result will be.[/i]
FFS not that old rubbish!
Do you not understand how the odds are 'created'? It's based on the money bet and absolutely nothing to do with anything else.
It you want to see it in action go to a trackside Bookie and put down £100 on a dog/horse - the odds will change.
Just talking to my landlord earlier, he reckoned it'd be about 65% Remain.
I'm thinking it'll be a lot closer to the Scottish Referendum result of about 55:45 Remain.
Anyway my Remain vote has gone in by post as I can't get to my polling station tomorrow so I guess we'll wake up on Friday and see...
But listen Graham, I've kept mostly off the 159 pages of pointless arguing on this thread.
So have I mostly. I just stuck my nose in the other day and found myself sucked in. 😀
FWIW, I don't think [i]all[/i] of it is pointless. I enjoy hearing other people's opinions, especially when they challenge my own and are well thought out - which to your credit ernie, yours typically are.
50/50 exactly
to be decided on a coin toss
actually im very much worried itll be 52/48 in favour of brexit
actually im very much worried itll be 52/48 in favour of brexit
I'll be very relieved when I never have to hear the word 'brexit' again...
"I'm moving to Latvia" - only if you want to remain in the EU.
Actually, if it all goes wrong tomorrow...
l be very relieved when I never have to hear the word 'brexit' again.
May I propose "BritQuit" (a simple contraction of Britain quitting Europe, and to my ear far more resonant) as an alternative.
While the Remainers want to focus on personalities rather than real issues, ie, "Don't you just hate IDS, Gove, and Boris? Well then vote to remain in the EU".
Well that's a load of rubbish.
Remain's main argument is 'leaving will **** the economy'.
FFS not that old rubbish!
eh?
Do you not understand how the odds are 'created'? It's based on the money bet and absolutely nothing to do with anything else.It you want to see it in action go to a trackside Bookie and put down £100 on a dog/horse - the odds will change.
Not sure you can compare this to your local greyhound track. If you put a couple of hundred grand on one side it wouldn't change. (much)
which to your credit ernie, yours typically are.
Thank you, it's generous of you to say so.
For the record at a guess I think it will probably be an easy victory for the Remainers, mostly because the case for leaving hasn't been made/heard beyond silly xenophobic bollocks. And the British people are not racist, election result after election result proves that.
But whether the vote goes in favour of In or Out the result will represent a victory for stupidity. In my opinion of course.
While the Remainers want to focus on personalities rather than real issues, ie, "Don't you just hate IDS, Gove, and Boris? Well then vote to remain in the EU".
I despise all the main protaganists in this debate equally. They're all utter ****s!!!! So I don't see what beaaring that has
Its more the whole economic suicide thing I've got an issue with. And the fact that the Outers have sunk to new levels of racism, xenaphobia and just blatant and outright lying! Understandable really, as if you remove those elements, they have absolutely nothing to offer.
I'm waiting for Boris promising a free gold-plated unicorn for every household*. I'll expect that about 5 this afternoon
* Terms and conditions apply
All I ask, and this is to everyone not just W2W, think when you post - opinions a fine, but don't fan the flames. I'll try to do the same.
This I like.
And the British people are not racist, election result after election result proves that.
They are quite xenophobic though.
Even if I typo'ed Pondo.
I mean to say "opinions are fine..."
Its more the whole economic suicide thing I've got an issue with.
Good for you binners. I'm gad to hear that you haven't used popular personal dislike of Tories such as IDS and Gove to convince people to vote remain.
Although I know you would never do such a thing.
But whether the vote goes in favour of In or Out the result will represent a victory for stupidity. In my opinion of course.
True its been a terrible debate but that is what happens when you have tries trying to out negative each other
The UK is not racist but, due to the island nature, the great empire, winning world wars on our won as we stood against Europe etc we are slightly isolationist as the continent is abroad where as for mainland Europe its not.
How often to UK folk say they are going to Europe for a holiday for example
I was lucky enough to spend time in Italy on an Erasmus university exchange - I loved it. I'd love my kids to have the chance to do that easily - yes I know it will still be possible, just not as easy.
Our (American) owners use us as the people to check out leads in Gernany or Poland (for example) because we're" the European operation". I spent time assessing whether or not we should make a very large European purchase as a result - a fantastic piece of work. I want that to continue.
There's two more reasons (on top of the economy and in my opinion security) why I'm pro-remain
How often to UK folk say they are going to Europe for a holiday for example
...or that old Times Newspaper headline classic from the 50's 'Fog closes channel, Europe isolated'
How often to UK folk say they are going to Europe for a holiday for example
True. I think there has always been a mentality that "Europe" is something alien and exterior, rather than something we are part of.
Perhaps feeling that feeds the general distrust.
molgrips - Member"And the British people are not racist, election result after election result proves that".
They are quite xenophobic though.
Which explains why the UK is home to one of the most diverse and multicultural societies on the planet.
And why 40% of the residents who live in the UK capital were born overseas.
And why no member of an anti-immigration party has ever won a parliamentary election in the UK.
Do you actually understand what xenophobia means ?
Just been listening to BoJo on the World at One. Martha Kearney made him squirm a few times. In particular when trying to get him to say what numbers of migrants he would expect if we left.
He didn't answer the question.
She also,played the clip of him supporting Turkey's entry into the EU from a few years back.
Not surprisingly he didn't like that much either
Ernie - Carswell?
In particular when trying to get him to say what numbers of migrants he would expect if we left.
I thought that was "aspirational" now.
Thanks for the slur Ernie.
Why not ask me why I said that, instead of being a dick?
I was referring to the apparently quite widely held and off cited belief that we should "look after our own first". Both with respect to things like overseas aid, and benefits and services for foreign migrants. Which is relevant here.
Ernie - Carswell?
Brilliant you've found one, if you consider that UKIP is primarily an anti-immigration party.
It certainly puts practically every other European country to shame if all the UK has managed over many decades is one solitary anti-immigration MP.
The UK is an extremely long way from being described as xenophobic. Our Continental friends are much better at that sort of thing. Much much better.
In particular when trying to get him to say what numbers of migrants he would expect if we left.
He certainly won't answer that question, as "the same as this year, or possibly more' doesn't fit in with what his supporters want to hear. There are going to be some mightily disappointed, and some quite angry Little Englanders, if we end up with PM Boris, and the truth of his claims to reduce immigration are exposed for the myth that they are
You'd think people wouldn't be so monumentally thick as to fll for the same ruse twice. Aftre all, it was only a couple of years ago that Dave was making the exact same statements. When it suited his agenda.
Whats Einsteins definition of stupidity?
To repeat the same experiment, but expect different results?
She also,played the clip of him supporting Turkey's entry into the EU from a few years back.
She should have also played [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-brexit-support-single-market-leave-european-union-video-a7089991.html ]the clip of him from 2013[/url] saying:
[i]"I'd vote to stay in the single market. I'm in favour of the single market. I want us to be able to trade freely with our European friends and partners."[/i]
Why not ask me why I said that, instead of being a dick?
Because I'm not interested in why you said the UK is "quite xenophobic".
or the telegraph article from feb 2016
“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”
It certainly puts practically every other European country to shame if all the UK has managed over many decades is one solitary anti-immigration MP.
we all know thats beacuse of our rigged voting system
So you're not interested in a discussion you only want to insult me? Then why reply at all?
Anyway, back on track re polls: It has occurred to me that they aren't actually attempting to predict the result; just predict voting intentions. We still have many times more 'don't knows' than would be required to swing it either way, and the polls don't seem to be predicting how they will end up voting.
I seem to remember hearing that don't knows tend to favour the status quo.. if so then remain would be in the bag surely? Maybe this is what the bookies are looking at?
So you're not interested in a discussion you only want to insult me? Then why reply at all?
The only thing I was interested in was challenging your absurd claim that the UK is "quite xenophobic", when all the evidence shows that not to be the case.
If you think that me challenging something which is patently untrue represents an insult then you need to toughen up mate.
I genuinely doubted that you understood what xenophobia mean. So at the risk of insulting you further here is a definition I found on google :
xenophobia
z?n??f??b??/
noun
noun: xenophobiadislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.
"racism and xenophobia are steadily growing in Europe"
61/44
@dmorts you are the Greek Minister of finance and I claim by €350 billion 🙂
@Junky I said months ago this would be the first big debate on here I've been on the losing side of but I am now confident we are going to win
@kimbers 52/48 Leave there will be an almighty fudge, we won't actually leave. EU will come up with a temporary fudge on free movement or at least allow us not to pay any benefits for 4 years. Anyway some superficial
Nonsense and we won't trigger Article 50
Just saw my middle daughter for a quick lunch and she was sporting her IN badge with pride
To be honest, and I can't speak for anyone else, as a Scot I find I am loved for my race/nationality most of the way round the globe - the bits I've been to anyway. And only until they get to know me of course.
I don't personally find mainland Europe xenophobic. Maybe they're nasty to other people of course.
anti-immigration MP.
We have no anti-immigration MPs and a very large number who think control is necessary. See the Labour mug from 2015 posted by ninfan
Listen to the children Jamba. Unless your other children are quitters, in which case listen to your middle daughter - she has to live with it longer than you.
The only thing I was interested in was challenging your absurd claim that the UK is "quite xenophobic", when all the evidence shows that not to be the case.
Assuming I don't know what it means is an insult to my intelligence. As is posting the dictionary definition of which I am well aware.
I won't play that game against you, it's not my style; however I would point out that whilst many people, probably the majority in the UK are not xenophobic as you point out, there are is clearly (to me) a sizeable minority who would put British people first. To me, this is xenophobia. And despite your bluster, there are no simple hard facts where population sentiments are concerned.
Your tone comes across as very nasty. If this is not intended then perhaps you should think about how you come across. If it is intended, then stop it.
I said months ago this would be the first big debate on here I've been on the losing side of but I am now confident we are going to win
As usual you will be wrong but at least this time you will have to accept it 😉
Its going to be much closer than expected but I think remain will just edge then again neither result will be that much of a massive surprise
its surprising that fear of foreigners is greater than fear of financial doom
Really shit campaign though and hard to see how bridges will be built afterwards whatever happens
PS I am out all day Friday so either way I wont be on here to be ridiculed or to rejoice.
@igm I am proud to have raised by kids to be independent, they are all registered and will be voting tomorrow. Their overriding factor is support for freedom of movement, allowing poor people to come to the UK to earn money to support their families and improve their lives. My eldest is the funniest and as she said she had no problem getting work in Spain despite 25% youth unemployment as she noted many young Spanish don't really want to work and would rather do nothing than take a "tough" job. Hats off to freedom of movement eh ?
Well if you were a plumber who is now unemployed as a direct result of the oversupply of plumbers due to EU immigration then you have been directly affected by the policy and would feel justified in feeling aggrieved at the immigration policy. The problem with free movement is that we cannot control or match the skills the country needs to the skills of the immigrants coming into the country. The result is that in some industries there is massive oversupply e.g. plumbers, so affected indiginous british people feel the immigrants are taking their jobs, or driving their wages down. Whereas on the other side we are struggling for key skills in other industries and we are unable to recruit from non-EU nations e.g. Engineers, Scientists etc.
I think the net benefits of migration are beneficial - I think that has basically been proved beyond all doubt by now, but I can sympathise with the view of a British plumber if they disagree and want to vote leave - I personally havn't been affected but they have. That's not Xenephobia.
so how does the actual vote work, will we get results in like a GE?
Jamba - like it. I'm at the other end of that employment thing in that I've been trying to employ engineers just recently. Decent jobs, as in a training scheme that pays about the average UK salary on day one and it goes up from there. Can I find good quality UK kids to do that job? Even with freedom of movement I'm struggling to fill posts. Taken on some good Greek kids but not enough.
If you are an unemployed plumber, you are not very good at it.
Conversely if you are a good, unemployed plumber in the York area, what do you know about solar water?
oversupply of plumbers
Just move to Wales, when i was re-doing bathroom & kitchen had real difficulties getting hold of a plumber who wasn't over-booked
Your tone comes across as very nasty. If this is not intended then perhaps you should think about how you come across. If it is intended, then stop it.
I think you should take his advice and toughen up - the man is blunt (which is rather refreshing) but not nasty.
arent most brexiters retired anyway?
In my workplace- cancer research lab- we are not only dependent on EU funding (about 20%) but also scientists pathologists and bioinformaticians in particular are highly sought after, recruiting globally is the only way to ensure we get the best candidates, recruiting from within the EU is much easier and cheaper for us.
We have many europeans here and they are quite shocked by the level of xenophobia that this campaign has unearthed.
so in my entire institute I dont know of anyone backing Out, apart from 1 junior doctor, who is constantly having to defend his position to bemused colleagues here and on his hospital shifts;
this is what he sees in work every day [img] 
[/img]
fwiw my parents are out (had a few arguments there) one brother out, 1 in, my inlaws all in
and on my facebook friends 90% in
Its more the whole economic suicide thing I've got an issue with
Avoiding economic suicide is one of my main reasons for voting Leave. Whatever Cameron says being in the EU is exactly like being shackled to a corpse
arent most brexiters retired anyway?
Far from it, as @welsh said 80% farmers, fishing community, low-skilled and unskilled workers plus unemployed all pro-Leave