[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

kimbers - Member

Good read here, if rather depressing

http://washingtonspectator.org/cameron-folly-eu-uk/

Ya, but he will be earning big as future conference motivation speaker around the world. 😮

We have all been on a night out with that mate who when you are in a club says "it's shit here" let's go somewhere else. Then when you leave you realise he has no idea where to go and the place you left won't let you back in. Without a decent follow up plan a leave vote could see the UK standing in a kebab shop arguing about who's fault it is.

it doesn't help that the mate is Peter Griffin.

I am enjoying the sight of Iain Duncan Smith and his Damascene Epiphany. Suddenly rejecting everything he previously believed, and implemented, and morphing into a rabble rousing, tub thumping socialist, fiercely fighting for the rights of the poor and the downtrodden of society.

Quite frankly, if you can witness that without snorting with derision then you should have your right to vote removed on mental health grounds

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that things will never improve while we have freedom of movement

Experience with outsourcing in India (where wage inflation is ca 10%+) is that eventually it makes better business sense to insource or keep outsourcing around the world i.e. India is under threat from the cheap Philippines)

The reason working people feel poorer isn't because immigrants are taking the jobs; it's because working people's share of corporate income and GDP has fallen pretty steadily for 40 years, and accelerated to a 2% decline in the last decade. Apart from a brief slump in the late 90s, it's the lowest it's ever been. It's not that surprising that so many rich people want us to believe it's because of poor immigrants...

The reason working people feel poorer isn't because immigrants are taking the jobs;

Technology is destroying many blue collar jobs, why employ 3 welders when you can just buy a robot. Secretaries nope I can type, print, arrange meetings etc. straight from my PC or phone. Accounting clerks nope got Excel etc. Economist even lead the other day regarding surgeons being replaced by robots. The majority of manufacturing is now far more efficient using significantly less labour that 30 years ago.

things will never improve while we have freedom of movement,

The reason working people feel poorer isn't because immigrants are taking the jobs; it's because working people's share of corporate income and GDP has fallen pretty steadily for 40 years, and accelerated to a 2% decline in the last decade. .

And why is this NW?

looks like germany and turkey have fallen out, phew, we can breathe easy now, seems the 70 million turks won't be invading any longer! 😆

seosamh77 - Member
looks like germany and turkey have fallen out, phew, we can breathe easy now, seems the 70 million turks won't be invading any longer!

True, but neither will they take back the refugees and immigrants we are trying to punt back in their direction.

teamhurtmore - Member

And why is this NW?

It's because Dey Turk Urr Jurbs, obviously.

Too late Joe, they are already here. Didn't you see the poster saying that Turkey ARE IN Europe. It was in red so you wouldn't miss it.

(p.s what was that jibe on the other thread for?)

The reason working people feel poorer isn't because immigrants are taking the jobs; it's because working people's share of corporate income and GDP has fallen pretty steadily for 40 years, and accelerated to a 2% decline in the last decade. Apart from a brief slump in the late 90s, it's the lowest it's ever been. It's not that surprising that so many rich people want us to believe it's because of poor immigrants...

+1

And why is this NW?

Successive governments have reduced taxation on wealth and higher incomes, whilst simulatneously eroding Union power, thus facilitating a massive transfer of wealth to the owners of capital.

Nice timing by Germany!

the reality is that global capitalism is what keeps poor people poor

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What do you suppose that graph shows, ninfan?

Also, How does Boris and his cronies plan to deal with the other ~200k people that came here from outside the EU, are we going to close our border?

1. Too many coming from outside the EU == failed government policy and said elected party needs to amend immigration policy.

2. Too many coming from within the eu. Nothing you can do, as if they have an EU passport it's 'welcome one and welcome all'! Where as outside the EU we can put every migrant into the same pot and base the decision as to whether they come or go on whether their skills are of use.

ps - Remainers, refrain from posting speculative comments regarding free movement for free access to single market as I'm sick to death of hearing about 'possible' economic / trade scenarios.

All of those wanting to remain just have their snouts in the trough. Top FTSE bosses for example, bankers ... None of them give a sh!t they are just out to maximise share holder value and would see the shirt off their mother's back given half the chance.

PS - I'll be handing out 'vote leave' 🙂 leaflets in Blandford Forum at the weekend if you fancy a natter!

poor v extreme poverty

The notion that capitalism is about poverty reduction rather than wealth accumulation in the elite is sophist.
It is possible to argue it does both but then they need folk able to work to exploit.
The richest 1% now has as much wealth as the rest of the world and richest 62 people in the world had as much wealth as the poorest half of the entire planet.

Essentially , like us giving railways to the empire, it was done to exploit them not help though though it did help them as well.

@Daffy - a large portion of non EU migration is from students who pay a premium over normal tuition fees. There is an issue with many who don't leave or even don't study but overall they pay into the system quite healthily

@kimbers one of the articles main criticisms of Cameron is for calling a Referendum at all 😯

@Junky we've done this before, the worlds population is exploding and most significantly in poor countries, this skews those sort of figures and they are deliberately misrepresented. By all means go and take all of Gates/Zuckerberg's money to even things up a bit. Poverty is now described as a percentage of average income so it goes up if you increase the state pension for example. You are defined as living in poverty if you can't take the kids to the swimming pool once a week.

Surprised there is no comment on the Sky interview / questions

Really laughed out loud when Islam asked Cameron which would be first WW3 or a Global Brexit recession 🙂 Audience focused a lot on Cameron's poor personal handling of the campaign.

Also it was interesting the Southampton Uni student of Moroccan ethnicity was so anti-Turkey and pointing out what is discussed widely in Middle East media (and I've read in numerous places) namely the funding of IS by Turkey (in order to destabilise Syria and Assad). How could they be a candidate country she asked ?

The most important thing for me was Cameron committed to trigger Article 50 immediately on a Leave vote. Now I'd love to believe him but I very much doubt it.

By all means go and take all of Gates/Zuckerberg's money to even things up a bit

Are You saying you dont mind him having this level of wealth whilst other folk starve to death and die of preventable disease caused by absolute poverty?

Its got **** all to do with jambyfact of swimming pools so why trivialize death?
This i s what capitalism gives us as we accept this level of inequity and the outcomes of it

given the current economic model, built on GDP, it would take 100 years to bring the world's poorest up to the previous poverty line of $1.25 a day

Capitalism has not really been that great has it.

Oh no, Owen Jones on QT. how many times will "Establisment" be used. But at least his first comment makes sense, but it was an easy set up by Hamilton 😯 bingo q1

Jambas - you talk about candidate country and yet your posters tell everyone the Turkey is already IN. Make your minds up. Or are the posters lies like the £350m?

Good evening flange? ...sounds like it.

A simple question, currently immigration is c300k per annum if I read the figures correctly. If you break that by EU non EU, you get 50-50 ish.

So looking at EU free movement of people we already control 50% of immigration but don't? So leave the EU and....

Unemployment is low, yes there are people who might be "unemployed" ie disability/sick etc. but the numbers actually not working aren't that high 6% ish. by all measures the number of employed people is high.

SO stop EU immigration then what? No immigration? send back all non nationals? etc. Who does the jobs?

mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here. The government has been trying as much as possible to restrict non-EU as it knows the overall numbers look so bad vs manifesto commitment, that is actually hurting non-EU etc. What the Govt (and myself) want to do is control low skilled cheap labour from the EU but we cannot.

Itis not about stopping immigration, its about controlling who we take and the total. We decide whether its -100k zero +100k or even 500k we decide

IMO you cannot possibly argue with this. I obtained for work visas for US and Singapore, my father did Australia twice, Canada, South Africa. Its not that difficult.

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In my stupidity orienated way I've searched a few titbits for factual in/out arguments in order to make my decision rather than defer to the marketed fluff.

Its seems to me we'd be equally OK either in or out in the main, although in the sort term vacuum that occurred if we went out there would be a dip in financial confidence and becuase of the "unknown" with no confidence or plan to back that up.

Therefore I find it hard to decide - both have merits and now Dave's agreement albeit not as strong as he might have promised seems to have more of an impact should we stay in. I don't think either are a risk to society as we know it, but there will be a period of adjustment if we are out - also in Europe though as they adjust without some of our contribution.

Tough to decide really, although I am in favor of a skills based immigration policy, not a welfare supported immigration policy.

Its seems to me we'd be equally OK either in or out in the main

I agree and think you've summed it up well. I'm sure in the short term, I might lose out financially with my business, but I'm really starting to think that if we don't take this opportunity now (to leave), we'll really be regretting it in the decades to come.

jambalaya - Member
mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here.

With all these people making big bucks and our ability to select them why do non-EU migrants contribute less than EU migrants?

Rockape63 - Member
I'm really starting to think that if we don't take this opportunity now (to leave), we'll really be regretting it in the decades to come

Why?

if we don't take this opportunity now (to leave),

My point of view is that at best leave offers us nothing more, and there's nothing about the EU I dislike so much that it's worth gambling on the benefits we currently have.

And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

mrmo -the non EU immigration is dominated by students paying high fees to our Unis and Executives/professionals making big bucks and thus paying high taxes from countries like US plus wives/family members of people already here.

Looking at the government stats, that is not really what is happening is it...

the shortage lists for tier2 aren't going away.

Whereas I tend to think of the EU as the salon in a pub , I might not like the regulars but it's where we go to drink and we often share a beer.
I don't think they'll be keen on sharing a beer with us after we've drunkenly ranted for an hour, told them where to stuff it & insulted their families.
Meanwhilst the rest of the pub, from the public bar, looks on in horror and won't want anything to do with us.

Or you could just start drinking in a nicer pub.

Or you could just start drinking in a nicer pub.

And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

so stop all the people that might have learnt to see through all the political crap and leave it those that get swayed by the latest stuff on social media ?

makes sense.

Kryton57 - Member

Its seems to me we'd be equally OK either in or out in the main, although in the sort term vacuum that occurred if we went out there would be a dip in financial confidence and becuase of the "unknown" with no confidence or plan to back that up.

My attitude, look at the current government, look at governments for the last 30+years. would I trust any of them. Bluntly no, so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won't go to pot? that they have a plan, they just haven't decided to tell anyone what it is. There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

Is the EU perfect, of course not, however if the UK is such a powerful country and everyone will come running to do business with us, why is it that the UK is unable to do anything in Europe to negotiate a better situation, which leads to, why would it be in a better position outside Europe???? If we can't negotiate with Europe what hope is there of negotiating with China or India????

TurnerGuy - Member

so stop all the people that might have learnt to see through all the political crap and leave it those that get swayed by the latest stuff on social media ?

makes sense.

Lefties hate democracy.
Dear leader Jean-Claude sets the example.

Lifer - Member
And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

But the whole fear thing coming from both sides is primarily focused on having views from the aged and embittered. You'd be putting all those populist career politicians out of work. Coming to think of it...

so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won't go to pot?

But you can vote them out next time.

There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

But we can dictate both the volume and where migrants come from. Currently the EU discriminates in favour of other EU countries.

why is it that the UK is unable to do anything in Europe to negotiate a better situation,

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

My attitude, look at the current government, look at governments for the last 30+years. would I trust any of them. Bluntly no, so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of ******* that it won't go to pot? that they have a plan, they just haven't decided to tell anyone what it is. There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

I agree, on the basis that I know my Manager at work is mentored by a higher level presumably more capable manager, then that works. With my current analogy I'm not being paid £1000 expenses by an external partner organisation in India becuase Premier Travel Inn didn't put "Ltd" at the end of my company name for one of my reciepts - thems the nonsensical rules you see?

Its great to have wide ranging humanitarian support for the local leadership, its also great to have local leadership capable of making local decisions where common sense applies locally*

*assuming they are capable of doing so, but we have the voting power there.

With all these people making big bucks and our ability to select them why do non-EU migrants contribute less than EU migrants?

One theory;

Non EU migrants more heavily weighted to students (living off savings / parents allowance, paying large fees - larger than EU students) not least as UK uni fees much higher than say France, Holland etc.

UK has substnatially more coded city employees (earning more than £1m) as French/German banks pit senior staff in London for contacts/market etc plus taxes lower so they want to work here

@Kryton - you cannot vote based on certainty of the future, its just not possible. Either Remain or Leave you have to think about likely scenarios such as

Ever closer union, ever expanding eu via ever poorer nations, continuing stagnation of over regulated eu countries, increasingly cumbersome and undemocratic management, over leveraged eu countries going bankrupt, never being asked again what we think via a referendum

And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.

TurnerGuy - Member
And rather than restrict 16 y/o from voting they should restrict those over 60.
so stop all the people that might have learnt to see through all the political crap and leave it those that get swayed by the latest stuff on social media ?
makes sense.

No, so those that whose lives will be most affected by the decision have a say.

surfer - Member

so I am being asked to put my faith in a bunch of **** that it won't go to pot?

But you can vote them out next time.

How many people voted Tory in the last election? 27%... so no you can't vote them out....

There seems to be this idea that we will control migration, when It is perfectly clear there will be no control. The whole country is dependent on migrant labour at every level.

But we can dictate both the volume and where migrants come from. Currently the EU discriminates in favour of other EU countries.

Does it matter? a job needs doing, we need brickies, Doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, care workers, etc etc etc are you arguing we import them from NZ rather than Poland?

why is it that the UK is unable to do anything in Europe to negotiate a better situation,

You seem to be arguing against yourself.

No, I am arguing that if the current shower of ** are incapable of negotiating in Europe then what hope for them negotiating outside of Europe?

@Drac don't be fooled by the ranting interventions of EU leaders who are afraid their own citizens demand a referendum too and are crapping themselves that one the wealthiest members leaves the club and they'll have to pick up the slack. Its comparable to why Spain wouldn't let an Independent Scotland join the EU it would destabilise Catalonia and the Basque country.

Does it matter? a job needs doing, we need brickies, Doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, care workers, etc etc etc are you arguing we import them from NZ rather than Poland?

The US held a green card lottery a while back with specific national quotas, to ensure fairness. Thats what you can chose to do, or indeed not chose, when you have control