[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

MEP he is ranked 746 out of 750

he huge vested interests from the political organisations like the IMF, OECD etc. We understand that the UK being in the EU is better for them.

they are international organisations, they are not political, they have no vested interest its just that you object to them stating facts that counter your political viewpoint that has no basis in fact- as shown by the fact neutral agencies say its BS.

Every day more like JHJ- nice to know there are some authorities you wont quote though - sadly its relevant ones

@MrLeb - you are ignoring the huge vested interests from the political organisations like the IMF, OECD etc. We understand that the UK being in the EU is better for them.

I'm not ignoring anything at all. Secondly, I don't see the conspiracies you manage to find..

Thirdly.....You are assuming my mind is made up!

Oh, & you dodge questions you don't like the answers too.....see:

More pertinent question are
1. Why are they in the EEA - makes economic sense
2. how much access do they get to the shabang without paying? NIL
3. DO they have to harmonise - YES
4, DId switzerland manage to negotiate free movement- NO

To save me repeating these ad nauseum shall we just assume you will claim to have answered them already after pages of ignoring them ?

Your claims of what we will get afterwards are fanciful in the extreme

If, I'm being swayed it's by the Remain as they are marginally more truthful than Brexit..

The great shame is that this is defining moment in the history of the EU, yet the debate is being acted out like some kind of reality TV show! Nothing more than a mud slinging shouting match......& more's the pity.

It could have been so much more informative & engaging, it's no more than a lame political Big Brother..

Gove sounds a lot like Jamba without a mountain bike.

As I said some time ago, it's a positive message from Gove, which I find appealing. It seems the audience does too!

Rockape - MTB are on sale at 50% RRP in all shops tomorrow.

A nice positive message and as truthful as the words of Gove. Appealing though.

This is a dry run for being a potential PM and he is as naked as the infamous Emperor. Its not a pretty sight

"Spain have said they will shut the border with Gibraltar, what would you do?"

[img] [/img]

More lies about UK residents in EU. Of course they can own property. But can they obtain health care? Are they guaranteed equal taxation status? No.

Gove wants to save failing industry?

Take it back - not a hopeful future leader. Categorical. Do we believe him this time?

"the truth is....the truth is... " no really 😉

The whole argument started with 30+ years of anti EU rhetoric, so you have to ask what hope is there!

Then consider that if you want to trade with the EU you will have to follow their rules, the rules that are for a large part already in place in the UK, All the Eurocodes that have replaced BS for example.

How do you stop migration via NI/Ireland border without reintroducing border controls...
How do you get Trade with the EU or the EEA without following the rules and paying into the pot?
If you work for a multinational do you really want to risk your job?
It is clear that you have one groups arguing that no migration whilst another arguing quotas, simple fact is that as long as the economy grows it needs labour. With an ageing population the UK can't survive without immigration.
I have yet to hear anything from the brexit camp that addresses anything, all i hear is it will be ok. The proof is where?

Then look at who is pushing, what exactly do they stand to gain, what is their agenda.

Finally since the second world war the UK has rarely come out of negotiation in a strong position, so why would it be any different now?

not a hopeful future leader. Categorical

he really did put that to bed, I think thats a shocker for everyone, brave move - tomorrows newspaper headlines already written.

[quote=ninfan ]"Spain have said they will shut the border with Gibraltar, what would you do?"

Well the thousands of Spanish citizens who cross the border daily to work in Gibraltar will be pretty pissed off with their politicians for a start 🙂

Thing is there are a lot of clever people arguing against each other on this subject and no one really knows who's right.

Bit like the religion threads!

Rockape63 - Member
Thing is there are a lot of clever people arguing against each other on this subject and no one really knows who's right.

Bit like the religion threads!

what if you wear a suicide belt you get 72 virgins in the next life???

what if you wear a suicide belt you get 72 virgins in the next life???

Didn't spot that in the last religion thread. Perhaps Saxon Rider can ask that on the next one?

Nothing more than a mud slinging shouting match......& more's the pity

OUT - I don't like foreigners

Thing is there are a lot of clever people arguing against each other on this subject and no one really knows who's right

In my opinion you just nailed the whole issue with this referendum in one sentence.

So I was listen to R4 news today and they have a daily Q&A on the EU vote.

According to the chap on there the cost of the EU works out at about £280 per year per household (net of all rebates, income, profits etc).

So less than £1 per day - seems worth the punt to stay in.

[url= http://gu.com/p/4dkjh ]From the horse's mouth.[/url]

So much for brexit.

Norways population is 5 million and Switzerlands is population 8 million. I think the UK could get a better deal.

Why don't Norway and Switzerland just join?

molgrips - Member

From the horse's mouth.

So much for brexit.

Ya, what can they do as they are not significance ...

However, even with her tiny population Norway sure have bigger balls than the entire EU lot cowering together. They even dare to stand out from the EU crowds ... Well done Norway.

If you wish to compare then you should compare BritLand with those bigger balls like France and Germany.

@molgrips nothing is stopping Norway from joining, except they don't chose to. Norway is an interesting case as the people voted against joining but the government was pro so signed up to pretty much everything anyway. I imagine Norway doesn't join as if they where subject to the same budget calculation as everyone else they would have to make a much bigger contribution.

@mrleb I don't say there is an OECD/IMF conspriacy, I say they have vested interests in UK remaining.

Also Junky they are highly political organisations staffed and run by politicians, I have dealt first hand with the IMF quite a lot as I said before. Its such a chuckle that you can post on Capitalism being such a failure yet pro on such a bastion of the establishment that is the EU.

On the progammes I watched both and imo Gove came through much better. I think its fair to say Islam and certainly the audience gave Cameron a tougher time so perhaps its not surprising he came over worse. As the Sky commentators said afterwards if this starts to become a referendum on personalities or individuals its Cameron who will lose out.

Goldman and JPM should not have made campaign contributions as corporations, it should have been done via individuals - I would say like in the old days / in the US. I recall being stunned to be asked to contribute personally to a US Presidential Campaign when working in the US

I don't say there is an OECD/IMF conspriacy, I say they have vested interests in UK remaining.

Splitting hairs much?

I have dealt first hand with the IMF quite a lot as I said before.

Its such a chuckle that you can post on Capitalism being such a failure yet pro on such a bastion of the establishment that is the EU.

You did not even manage to get my critique of capitalism correct
😆
there is literally no fact you can grasp

Splitting hairs much?

I think this is increasingly coming down to the fact that no one can make a passionate positive case for Remain as no one [b]really[/b] believes in Europe or can deny how deeply flawed the EU is.

Junky the EU is the racist one, Europeans (ie predominantly white) only.

😆 are you sure JHJ has not stolen your log in.

1. when we leave the EU we will have free movement of British folk within our borders

2. you support racism as British folk are predominately white

.

If you work for a multinational do you really want to risk your job?

Well Gove promised that nobody would lose their job due to Brexit. He also promised to save the British Steel industry. Phew. Looks like I was worried over nothing.

Jambas two further questions - I know they won't be answered but will post anyway

1. You seemed happy with these insitutions advice re Scotland. Has the personnel changed?
2. Your lot have discredited the Goverment itself (I know funny that), the BoE, the Treasury, The Cabinet Office. If and when you get the control you crave (and apparently don't have) WhoTF is going to exercise it since the current lot a not up to the job?

Sorry - a third point made in disbelief.

The EU and by association Merkel is racist. OK, why did they open up the door wide open to those funny foreigners whoile we peeped though our narrow letterbox shouting "no hawkers, no circulars!"?

Given all his promises he should run for PM, he would be a shoe in. Oh, wait a minute.....

I hope that when this is over and the dust has settled then whoever is in charge of the tory party will hold an independent inquiry into the endemic racism in the party that has led half their number to be a cigarette paper away from Nigel Farage .

while we peeped though our narrow letterbox shouting "no hawkers, no circulars!"?

That's not quite fair. We did send them a postal order.

teamhurtmore - Member
1. You seemed happy with these insitutions advice re Scotland.

2. Your lot have discredited the Goverment itself ...

The EU and by association Merkel is racist.

http://infacts.org/michael-goves-catalogue-errors/

http://infacts.org/michael-goves-catalogue-errors/

kimbers - Member
> http://infacts.org/michael-goves-catalogue-errors/

hope that when this is over and the dust has settled then whoever is in charge of the tory party will hold an independent inquiry into the endemic racism in the party that has led half their number to be a cigarette paper away from Nigel Farage .

TMH, I don't recall the IMF or the OECD making any comment on Scotland nor indeed the BoE. Both the Tories and Laboir made i clear there would be no deal of Sterling. The Government and the civil service is doing what Cameron tells them,mdifferemt leader differemt stance. More than 50% of Tory MPs are campaigning Leave, I would have thought the real issue is the PM's position is not reflective of the Government.

I think waht the Scottish and EU issues have shown us is we need more referendums, slecific questions on specific issues so we can decide.

@kimbers I clicked on that link and on the section aboit more control of taxes and banks - their responce was garbage. couldn't be bothered with anything else after that.

@br on the cist of EU membershio net of money we get back is about 10% of our total VAT collections, so withoit the EU VAT would be 18%, or its the equivalent of 3p on Income Tax (I posted the figure before I think that was right 3p)

Sky news have an interactive quiz to determine your stance. Mine came out as this, and fwiw it's spot on:

[i]Utilitarians tend to have a strong sense of attachment to their country and their community. Europe is still important to Utilitarians, but their first allegiance is almost always to the United Kingdom.

Utilitarians tend to be satisfied with the role and function of the European Union as long as it appears to benefit the UK. Most Utilitarians broadly think the EU has improved the UK’s national security and has by and large benefitted the British economy.

Utilitarians are often wary of EU regulations on British industry and what they see as Brussels interfering in UK affairs. They generally oppose the further expansion of the EU except where there might be an economic benefit.

Utilitarians are generally open to greater cultural diversity in the UK and support moderate levels of migration from within the EU. They expect that immigrants will abide by the laws and customs of the UK and think that the UK should only admit as many immigrants as the economy can reasonably support.

While Utilitarians tend to be sceptical about the EU overall, they prefer stability to the perceived risks of Brexit, so the majority will vote to remain in the EU.[/i]

We shoukd cut all ties with Australia, Canada and the USA first, what with their racist immigration policies, everyone knows freedom of movement is the only true and just system. Oh yes and Austria, certainky the 49.7% who voted for Hofer. Oh yes and Hungary and Poland and Slovakia (now EU President no less - "not a single Muslim" immigrant they say)

The point is, in which country is immigration the main plank of an election platform? Not even Trump with his "wall" campaigns exclusively on that topic. The tory leave campaign has positioned itself to the right of Slovakia, of Bulgaria, of Austria by choosing immigration as the only issue to be considered in a choice that we will be stuck with forever. The Austrian presidency means little and the choice could have been undone. Membership of the EU means a lot and exit is for good. The Brexiters make no argument except to blame foreigners for our problems - that is pure racism.

MH, I don't recall the IMF or the OECD making any comment on Scotland nor indeed the BoE

The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has said a currency union between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the United Kingdom would be incompatible with sovereignty, dealing a blow to Scottish nationalists before next week's referendum on independence.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/12/scottish-referendum-yes-vote-market-turmoil-imf

PLEASE GOOGLE ANYTHING YOU ARE THINKING OF SAYING

The fact you cannot recall something is only proof of your ongoing inability to interact with facts.

TMH, I don't recall the IMF or the OECD making any comment on Scotland nor indeed the BoE.

Well your memory fails you then.

The Government and the civil service is doing what Cameron tells them,mdifferemt leader differemt stance. More than 50% of Tory MPs are campaigning Leave, I would have thought the real issue is the PM's position is not reflective of the Government.

It's a free vote. Not sure what the point is here. But it's true, once again the Tories are making arses of themselves over Europe. Its their Achilles Heel and we/I predicted this. It's a pathetic spectacle all the same. Both major political parties are a shambles at the moment and the third is off the radar.

I think waht the Scottish and EU issues have shown us is we need more referendums, slecific questions on specific issues so we can decide.

On the contrary. What both have shown is that politicians are contemptful of the truth and the people they serve. The gross distortion of the truth (post truth politics) has been blatant and appalling to watch especially given the seriousness of the issues in question.

Representative government while not perfect, is better than this charade of democracy

Specific questions!?!? My simple ones remain unanswered. Why because the answers are uncomfortable. Hence BREXIT still relies on peddling lies as we seen in the website still is morning and the fact that Gove was categorical in re-affirming the OUTers central flawed statistic.

The only good thing that can be rolled out is the fact that more people become engaged in debate. That you guys have made it a flawed one is shameful. Truly shameful. And every person on whatever side who hands out a leaflet with BS or spouts the crap that Gove was spouting last night (and no doubt Bojo and IDS today) shoiuld take collective responsibility.

This is an unnecessary referendum with a pointless question - since we do not know what the EU is going to be like in 2-5 years time - and one that distracts for dealing with real issues. Linking problems in a crass and simplistic manner to the EU bogeyman doesn't make them go away it merely kicks the cans down the road - a solution not unique to Europe!!