[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

yes Binners you are right but the Daily Fail and Sexpress sell shed loads more papers to voters than any other printed bog paper.

[quote=Kryton57 ]So for the lay-idiot, what's happened in words of one syllable?

1. a brake on benefit payments to EU nationals working here- ban apply to 2027 - cannot be extended but not retrospectively applied. future ones to be index linked to country they reside.
2. city of london protected so it can [s]still be the centre of money laundering and tax evasion [/s] remain the powerhouse for the UK
3. Treaty change so UK not committed to ever closer union

[i]One only has to look at the grey hair ratio (or extend of hair dye) and howit increases rapidly to realise that PMs work bloody hard and are under a lot of stress. Basic salary is hardly worth it, hence the (undignified if understandable)!dash for cash afterwards.[/i]

They don't do it for the salary/expenses, and never have - do you really think that folk from the backgrounds of Cameron, Osbourne and Boris would do it just the for £100k (or even £200k with all expenses etc) pa?

Power my friend.

What a lot of this debate ignores is the amount of funding the EU creates for everything from University research to small business to social enterprise projects.

@Growie, it was the first one that came to mind. How about an EU army and one that can be deployed to police the borders of member countries without their right of veto - note this was discussed as the EU wanted to be able to OPEN the borders to migrants of countries who had sought to slow/divert migrants. Armed forces of another country on your land with no right to prevent it ? How about the €300bn gift to Greece which now acts as a rope around Europes neck, Greece will default, the EU will be forced to put even more money in against the wishes of many countries as they've been outvoted ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

This will affect us as EU contributions are calculated on the relative strengths of economies so when the euro zone truely tanks as a result our contributions will go up a lot.

I keep asking but never get answered.
Are we the only country with a strong OUT feeling? What makes the EU so much better for the French than us?
How much has the EU been responsible for peace in Europe. A war between France and Germany now seems impossible.

Denmark is fairly hostile to the EU afaik.

@zippy there is growing disquiet about the EU throughout Europe. The policies of Le Penn/FN in France are heavily euroskeptic but stop short of a full exit

A very thoughtfull statement released today. I imagine some here won't bother to read it when they see who its from

[i]Statement from Michael Gove MP, Secretary of State for Justice, on the EU Referendum

Immediate release, 20 February 2016

For weeks now I have been wrestling with the most difficult decision of my political life. But taking difficult decisions is what politicians are paid to do. No-one is forced to stand for Parliament, no-one is compelled to become a minister. If you take on those roles, which are great privileges, you also take on big responsibilities.

I was encouraged to stand for Parliament by David Cameron and he has given me the opportunity to serve in what I believe is a great, reforming Government. I think he is an outstanding Prime Minister. There is, as far as I can see, only one significant issue on which we have differed.

And that is the future of the UK in the European Union.

It pains me to have to disagree with the Prime Minister on any issue. My instinct is to support him through good times and bad.

But I cannot duck the choice which the Prime Minister has given every one of us. In a few months time we will all have the opportunity to decide whether Britain should stay in the European Union or leave. I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU. And if, at this moment of decision, I didn’t say what I believe I would not be true to my convictions or my country.

I don’t want to take anything away from the Prime Minister’s dedicated efforts to get a better deal for Britain. He has negotiated with courage and tenacity. But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.

But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out. We can take out our anger on elected representatives in Westminster but whoever is in Government in London cannot remove or reduce VAT, cannot support a steel plant through troubled times, cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed and cannot deport all the individuals who shouldn’t be in this country. I believe that needs to change. And I believe that both the lessons of our past and the shape of the future make the case for change compelling.

The ability to choose who governs us, and the freedom to change laws we do not like, were secured for us in the past by radicals and liberals who took power from unaccountable elites and placed it in the hands of the people. As a result of their efforts we developed, and exported to nations like the US, India, Canada and Australia a system of democratic self-government which has brought prosperity and peace to millions.

Our democracy stood the test of time. We showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.

Far from providing security in an uncertain world, the EU’s policies have become a source of instability and insecurity. Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria. The former head of Interpol says the EU’s internal borders policy is “like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe” and Scandinavian nations which once prided themselves on their openness are now turning in on themselves. All of these factors, combined with popular anger at the lack of political accountability, has encouraged extremism, to the extent that far-right parties are stronger across the continent than at any time since the 1930s.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time. It was developed in the 1950s and 1960s and like other institutions which seemed modern then, from tower blocks to telexes, it is now hopelessly out of date. The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation. It is an analogue union in a digital age.

The EU is built to keep power and control with the elites rather than the people. Even though we are outside the euro we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before. This growing EU bureaucracy holds us back in every area. EU rules dictate everything from the maximum size of containers in which olive oil may be sold (five litres) to the distance houses have to be from heathland to prevent cats chasing birds (five kilometres).

Individually these rules may be comical. Collectively, and there are tens of thousands of them, they are inimical to creativity, growth and progress. Rules like the EU clinical trials directive have slowed down the creation of new drugs to cure terrible diseases and ECJ judgements on data protection issues hobble the growth of internet companies. As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer.

It is hard to overstate the degree to which the EU is a constraint on ministers' ability to do the things they were elected to do, or to use their judgment about the right course of action for the people of this country. I have long had concerns about our membership of the EU but the experience of Government has only deepened my conviction that we need change. Every single day, every single minister is told: 'Yes Minister, I understand, but I'm afraid that's against EU rules'. I know it. My colleagues in government know it. And the British people ought to know it too: your government is not, ultimately, in control in hundreds of areas that matter.

But by leaving the EU we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative to the path the EU is going down. We can show leadership. Like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back, we can become an exemplar of what an inclusive, open and innovative democracy can achieve.

We can take back the billions we give to the EU, the money which is squandered on grand parliamentary buildings and bureaucratic follies, and invest it in science and technology, schools and apprenticeships. We can get rid of the regulations which big business uses to crush competition and instead support new start-up businesses and creative talent. We can forge trade deals and partnerships with nations across the globe, helping developing countries to grow and benefiting from faster and better access to new markets.

We are the world’s fifth largest economy, with the best armed forces of any nation, more Nobel Prizes than any European country and more world-leading universities than any European country. Our economy is more dynamic than the Eurozone, we have the most attractive capital city on the globe, the greatest “soft power” and global influence of any state and a leadership role in NATO and the UN. Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure. [/i]

This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to leave an EU mired in the past and embrace a better future.

ENDS

Ah, I see he aspires to be like the USA. That's something to look forward to then.

we have the most attractive capital city on the globe,

Anyway, I'll just leave this here

[img] [/img]

Even though I am no fan of Gove I did read the above.

Typically well written. However.......

I stiil disagree with him.

This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to stay within the EU and not get mired in the longing for a fictional rose tinted past of empire and embrace a better future within a reformed EU

I also can't stand Gove and read all of that well written piece, and have concluded that i'll take my chances with the EU rather than Gove's US inspired Tory utopia.

The EU have once again failed to adapt and change in any real meaningful way... CAP and all the money wasted.
Spain and the treatment of Gibraltar
BSE and the actions of the French in particular

We have given them many, many opportunities to amend and modernise.

Time to say Ciao, methinks

Are some people actually basing their decision in part based on those that are saying no?!

Who cares where Gove or the UKip chap stand. Im no fan of theirs and even Peter Sutcliffe's viewpoint on this topic wouldn't even enter my thoughts for one second.

Base your decision on when Greece demands more money again. What happens with Spain or Italy's economy/health and direct factors that will affect us.

Post- yes vote, do you really think it'll all be rosey with the MEPs knowing we are stuck in for the longhaul now?

YOUr reasons are hardly the most rational

FWIw my decision wa sin part based on those who want out

I cannot see myself on their side on any issue and if i am I am probably wrong as you saying leave also suggests 😉

Jambalaya,

I get that we're a net contributor, that's not really what concerns me.
What I am most concerned about is that, at present, a very large amount of EU money is invested in a very large amount of projects, businesses and social enterprises in the UK (and by the UK, I mean all of it, not just London and the South East). Many of these projects are being funded by the EU largely because our own government won't fund them.
Do you really think that Dave and his mates will continue to fund all of these projects with the money saved from leaving?
My bet is that they will squander it all away with vote winning drops in VAT and tax breaks for their mates.
Every time I ask any of the "out" group about anything remotely specific, all I seem to get is the same old "net contributor", "ever closer union" and migration bollocks.
We are part of a massive administrative system that works on many complex levels. Please can one of you explain to me (like I'm an idiot if you like) what we would actually do to replace all the current good that parts of our EU membership actually do for us?

@Growie, it was the first one that came to mind. How about an EU army and one that can be deployed to police the borders of member countries without their right of veto - note this was discussed as the EU wanted to be able to OPEN the borders to migrants of countries who had sought to slow/divert migrants. Armed forces of another country on your land with no right to prevent it ?

How about the €300bn gift to Greece which now acts as a rope around Europes neck, Greece will default, the EU will be forced to put even more money in against the wishes of many countries as they've been outvoted ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

Are some people actually basing their decision in part based on those that are saying no?!

I don't like Gove because apart from some of the things he has done in minor prison reform as Justice secretary I fundamentally disagree with his approach to most matters as he has explained them.
I don't like IDS as .... well the list is too long to put down here , but again I fundamentally disagree with his approach.

The main trouble with both of the above is that they are willing, like Jeremy Hunt, to continue to ignore sound statistical and evidence based information that repudiates their position purely on ideological grounds. If that can do this with things that I have personal experience of than how can I trust them on matters that I am less well versed in?

I don't like Nige because I think contrary to what he spouts he is just in it for himself first with everybody else a distant second.
Don't get me started on George Galloway...

So to answer your question it is at least in part because the leave campaign has attracted this calibre of people that I personally have no time for that I wish to stay in, but only a small part. It is confirmation if you like that my thoughts about the reasons for staying are correct having read and listened to plenty on various media from all sides of the debate.

I've decided that my vote will be based on the implications for the 100Euro's stashed in our holiday folder.

So, would Brexit mean our small pile of Euro's go up or down in value?

Greece is/was essentially a failure of the € not the EU and they should not be confused - except by those seeking to distort the truth. (Of course, there were other factors). No one can moan about money going back to Greece that is simply the balancing act on the capital account - econ 101

The lose of sovereignty is also massively overstated IMO.

With/without Dave we are in a great position at the heart of one of the world's most important economic/trade zones, in a period of no wars between us, and with unique arrangements that avoid many of the downsides of the Euro project. It's amazing what people ae prepared to throw away on the basis of the kind of crap that UKIP spout. But as the Scottish referendum showed its what you get people to believe that counts, not what is actually true.

I foresee a rather dispiriting few months.

Gove's last shot at getting back in the running post CMD? Why do parties miss the obvious fact that some people just are not cut out for the top job. Leave that to Labour at the moment.

The Spain/Gibraltar dispute doesn't have much to do with the EU and it's up to the UK and Spain to solve it.

I would have been in, but after Greece I am seriously concerned about sovereignty.

Now I am undecided.

Common agricultural policy takes up 40% of EU budget. Agriculture makes up less than 2% of EU GDP.

yes, but you buy subsidised food.

Common agricultural policy takes up 40% of EU budget. Agriculture makes up less than 2% of EU GDP.

If Gove (and the Govt) can't achieve what he states in his letter, then resign and let us elect someone you can - and stop blaming someone else for your failures.

Agriculture has to be preserved and maintained beyond what would be required for other industries. It might be cheaper to import all our food from China but it would not be a good idea.

I'd rather no subsidies. It would enable a fair playing field for farmers from developing countries aswell. But honestly my main beef with subsidies is that wealthy landowners can claim them just for owning land that is farmable.

Just had dinner with a couple fed by the Mail and the Torygraph - suffice to say we did not agree on EU! The amount of stuff they have/had swallowed was worrying

Its going to make the scottish debate look like the more factual one

the out camp
[img] [/img]

I'm sure the scotch nationalists will be able to show Gove how to be gracious losers

you don't simply claim CAP payments for owning land - it wasn't landowner's decision to decouple CAP payments from production and shift / link payments to environmental management - look up the BPS scheme rules for England or Wales etc. I'd also sooner have my food produced to UK/EU standards rather than those than say from the US etc.

we are in a great position at the heart of one of the world's most important economic/trade zones, in a period of no wars between us, and with unique arrangements that avoid many of the downsides of the Euro project. It's amazing what people ae prepared to throw away on the basis of the kind of crap that UKIP spout.

Pretty much the nail on the head I think. There are many things wrong with the EU, but if you're going to play the game, you need to be at the table. This debate really does make strange bedfellows. At least I have the comfort of still disagreeing with Jamba. 🙂

Prediction: Cameron gone on the 24th June. And bizarrely I don't particularly like that scenario.

I agree with THM and dazh above.

Hypothetical: if you're a Tory MP with no particular convictions apart from the desire to have power, which way do you go on this? Your party is about to rip itself to bits. How do you come out smelling of roses?

And then the same question for the Labour MPs...

tory- support the pm yet have as low a profile as possible/say you are doing it with a heavy heart etc then claim you were just being loyal?

labour - won't be ripped apart as much and wont matter as not the govt.

At least I have the comfort of still disagreeing with Jamba.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/revealed-how-we-pay-our-richest-landowners-millions-subsidies

I suspect the [b][u]In [/u][/b]crowd is now jumping with joy that the PM has come back with a brilliant deal of the century.

Looks like we are all going to feed the world again ... oh hang on ... are you playing the devil or god? 🙄

The irony is that we want to break up USSR but now we want the formation of EU-SSR ... 😆

As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) [b]I will vote OUT[/b] ... 😛

fin25 - Member
Jambalaya,

I get that we're a net contributor, that's not really what concerns me.
What I am most concerned about is that, at present, a very large amount of EU money is invested in a very large amount of projects, businesses and social enterprises in the UK (and by the UK, I mean all of it, not just London and the South East). Many of these projects are being funded by the EU largely because our own government won't fund them.
Do you really think that Dave and his mates will continue to fund all of these projects with the money saved from leaving?
My bet is that they will squander it all away with vote winning drops in VAT and tax breaks for their mates.
Every time I ask any of the "out" group about anything remotely specific, all I seem to get is the same old "net contributor", "ever closer union" and migration bollocks.
We are part of a massive administrative system that works on many complex levels. Please can one of you explain to me (like I'm an idiot if you like) what we would actually do to replace all the current good that parts of our EU membership actually do for us?

This is my worry, the eu money specifically goes to disadvantaged areas, even a lot of the money that goes to things like universities is tied to catalysing economic growth in less well off areas.

You'd have no nice trail centres if it wasn't for eu funding!

chewkw
As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) I will vote OUT ... ?

Chewkw. Ironically, the only people that think that people like you are johnny foreigner, are people like you.

ed ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

Only that has not happened. Not a single penny of Slovak tax payers money has been sent to Greece.

In for me. On the subject of immigration in particular I cannot see leaving will make much difference at all. Non-EU immigration will still have the same issues as it does now and EU immigration will be down to government policy which I suspect will be pretty much along the lines of what CMD has negotiated.

The Out campaign's message that somehow if we leave our borders will close and no one will be allowed in is nonsense. I don't think for one minute that is what the government has in mind.

Further, migrants will still make it as far as Calais and will still try and cross the Channel. There will still be a war in Syria driving people to our shores. Businesses will still need overseas workers.

If someone in the know who supports a Brexit could let me know if I'm wrong on this point I would be grateful because I'm struggling to see the connection between leaving and immigration suddenly becoming a non-issue.

Economically, why would you leave the largest trade bloc in the world? Yes we may be net contributor to the EU budget but that does not mean that we do not benefit significantly in terms of commerce and the ease of trading. The City in particular seems to enjoy the best of both worlds and look what happened when regulation was too light touch. That went well didn't it?

Further, nothing about being in the EU prevents us from doing bilateral deals with non-EU members - another fallacy I've seen bandied around by the Out campaign.

All in all - I just do not see how leaving benefits us at all. If anything it is a massive unnecessary risk that won't achieve anywhere near the changes that the Out campaign are suggesting.

as the [s]Scottish referendum [/s] general election showed its what you get people to believe that counts, not what is actually true.

FTFY

Greece is/was essentially a failure of the € not the EU and they should not be confus

Obviously the two are related since apart from countries with a specific opt out (UK DK) the others are supposed to use or "move towards" using the Euro.

Actsully DrJ I was wrong, its not €2bn its €3.1bn. Slovakia is the most exposed to Greece after Malta as a percentage of GDP. The Greeks have the Slovakian's money, well spent already actually and they won't be giving it back

[img] [/img]

@tmh, who created the euro, who set and then ignored the requirements for entry, who allowed Greece to join, who ignored their spiralling debts (twas hardly a surprise when they owned up to them was it?), who fudged the bailoit and simply booted a very large can a few yards down the road. The euro is a perfect example of eu incompetance. A colossal failire. If you are dispirated, sign up and do some campaigning. I look forward to discussing it over a beverage sometime, perhaps I'll invite you to an event 😉

Agriculture is one of my pet subjects, I'd fiercely like to see farming supoorted much better in the UK, ending ridiculously cheap imports including horse burgers from Eastern Europe via France and Ireland would be a start. Significantly tightening animal welfare legislation and banning imports from those that don't comply (impossible under EU law). EU's trade war with Russia didn't include a provision for protecting Pig farmers from the excess supply of Pork. Typical EU action poorly thought through.

athgray - Member

chewkw
As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) I will vote OUT ... ?

Chewkw. Ironically, the only people that think that people like you are johnny foreigner, are people like you.

Nothing wrong with who I am or the like of me coz I/we don't buy into your ideology ...

Who are you kidding eh?

There are two kinds of foreign thinkings:

1. The ones that want to change your society to fit them.
2. The ones want that do not want to have more competitions in an already hard fought place to earn a living.

I am the latter.

You are the privilege one that is out of touch and very few foreigners will say what they really think to you.

It looks like there will be another wasted generation ...

🙄

Hypothetical: if you're a Tory MP with no particular convictions apart from the desire to have power, which way do you go on this? Your party is about to rip itself to bits. How do you come out smelling of roses?

Start by not forgetting the contribution of their heroine Maggie. Note how often the OUT team ignore the impact of the rebate that the iron lady negotiated on our behalf. How odd...?

Our contribution is low as a %age of GDP (a massive 1%) and as a result of this we are the lowest contributed among member states. Well done Maggie 😉 We get the benefits for a fraction of the cost, what a bummer.

Jambas, I need no convincing of the folly that is the €, but that doesn't make me anti the EU. On the contrary, it is perfectly possible, indeed logical, to distinguish between the two.

But the issu of integration is REAL and hence my frustration on the timing and presentation of the referendum. We are not voting on a reformed EU at all. That is Dave's spin. We are voting on being a member of something that cannot continue to exist in its current form. And that is plain stupid.

Actsully DrJ I was wrong, its not €2bn its €3.1bn. Slovakia is the most exposed to Greece after Malta as a percentage of GDP. The Greeks have the Slovakian's money, well spent already actually and they won't be giving it back

I'll leave it to thm to explain to you how "exposure to Greece" is not the same as "sending money to Greece". (In fact the choice of Slovakia as an example is particularly poor, as a little Googling would have revealed.)

Here's a link to the Welsh Government's page on EU funding - is it absolutely guaranteed that that funding, £500 million per year, would still be available to us here if there was a vote to leave?

http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en

None of you outists gonna answer me then?

It's beginning to look like you lot have only got half a plan...

No, DrJ I'd like to hear it from you. A big chunk of that €3.1bn (50%?) was new money that Slovakia absolutely did send to Greece. The rest was taking over prior debts, the alternative to which was the Greeks having to pay Slovakia back. Thisi is real money the Greeks are taking and paying to citizens as wages, benefits and pensions. The Slovakian Finance Minister was one of the most vocal anti-bailout voices for good reason.

I appreciate your not in the market for advice from me but your Greek relatives should get all their money and as many assets as they can out of the country and ideally denominated in something other than euros. Greece could easily default in 2017 in the midst of French and German elections when a further bailout will be politically impossible.

@tmh I don't see us being at the center of Europe, in fact we are far from it. Look at Junkers appointment against our wishes. Now I'm delighted he's there as it provides hours of campaign material about institutionalised tax evasion, EU excess and general political incompetance. There was a time I thought we should join the euro in order to move to the very center of influence of the EU, but that was 10 years ago and I'm very glad Brown kept us out.

As Marr starts this morning, Gove and Boris' actions are simple cynical positioning

The Tories and Europe.... 😳

Jambas, as an economist, I have never been in favour of the € for good reason. But....

Given you earlier comments about EU/UK trade its pretty difficult to argue that we are not in the centre of Europe. Of course we are and why do you think Merkel is so desperate to accommodate Cameron.

Thanks tmh, time to switch on the VPN. Boris position very interesting, hes naturally Leave and if he campaings that way and wins he is a shoe in for leader as Cameron will have to step down and Osbourne is firmly Remain. Flipmside is a loss meams he's hands the advantage to Osbourne and May.

@fin - we are the 5th richest country in the world, we only get back a fraction of what we put into the EU. We can fund our own projects. Also IF (and I have to agree with kimbers earlier post it is an IF) we take tough action to address tax avoidance embedded in the EU we'd have a few billion extra per anum on top for projects. BTW trail centres are paid in part by land owners for example npower in Wales. Did Lady Canning have EU money, I thought it was crowd funded by bods like me sending a donation.

No, DrJ I'd like to hear it from you.

As you wish:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-bailouts-idUKBRE9410C920130502

"Apart from the initial bilateral loans to Greece in 2010 (*) which totalled 52.9 billion euros, no euro zone taxpayer money was sent to Greece, or any other country. All the later bailouts were financed on markets via the eurozone bailout fund."

(*) Which Slovakia opted out of.

we only get back a fraction of what we put into the EU

Oh no Sturgeon and her shaking head on Marr now.

Arrggghh tmh you b-stard first thing I see is Sturgeon

And now Farrage - why did I not go for an early ride instead. Bad choice....

Oh God more crap on migration.

Started as a Leave but now undecided, the whole Euro thing is a disaster of financial management, rule application seems to only apply to certain countries, consensus amoung the huge number of member states seems impossible, Germany has created/exasperated the migrant situation, we are tied to EU trade deals, Stupid (IMO) EU Court Rulings (prisoner right to vote etc) BUT workers rights, 35hr week etc are good, safety standards of vehicles, free trade

Call me Dave has got very little from the recent summit so if we vote to say I can see us getting very little voice at any other negotiations. However a free reign Call Me Dave if we leave could be terrifying to the working class/squeezed Middle.

Is there anywhere that lists the for and against reasons without descending into argument?

Oh Farage boils my urine.......

@fin - we are the 5th richest country in the world, we only get back a fraction of what we put into the EU. We can fund our own projects. Also IF (and I have to agree with kimbers earlier post it is an IF) we take tough action to address tax avoidance embedded in the EU we'd have a few billion extra per anum on top for projects. BTW trail centres are paid in part by land owners for example npower in Wales. Did Lady Canning have EU money, I thought it was crowd funded by bods like me sending a donation. [i][/i]

But they wouldn't or couldn't be trusted to do so - ifs buts and maybes, to me in Wales the EU is that bit more independence from the Westminster gov't and something we benefit from as a certainty and as such I can't see any reason why I would want to vote to leave.

Dave made a major error in pretending the he was negotiating major change. Why? Because we already have a very good deal.

We already have opt outs on the €, Shengen and on many Issues of justice and home affairs. There isn't a lot more to call for. Hence the need to exaggerate red herrings such as child benefit.

We are in a really good position in relative and absolute terms.

We can fund our own projects.

So why don't we?

DrJ, Slovakians are on the hook for the loans, the money the Greeks have spent as I said. They guarantee them. Its just the same as we all in the UK as taxpayers are responsible for the money the Treasury borrows and the Government spends. Its smoke and mirrors to try and claim that the cash "comes from the markets" as if thats a magic pot of goodmwith nomcost or liability. Total Greek debt has spiralled by something like €100bn since the eurozone countries became the primary lender/financer - this is fresh money being spent on wages, benefits and pensions amongst other things.

Personally I think Dave's negotiations are a bit of a side show - Immigration is a tiny part of the Eu v Uk discussions at the mo, and that is all he seems to have had a little bit of movement on

As for Farage , what a dick, I loved the fact that he is going to ask people to claim for asylum in the last safe country before they came to us. So thats ok then, no-one will travel to us anymore cos Nige said so, and it will be in France's interest to keep them ....

Jamba, you wrote:

€ 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

which was not true. This is why nobody can be bothered to debate with you. You say something, are shown to be in error, and then pretend that you said something entirely different. Boring.

fin25 - Member

None of you outists gonna answer me then?

On the funding issue you mention in your last post?
Well you get that we are a net contributor, so we could continue funding and still have more money left over.
Win-win!
Of course there is no guarantee that this would happen, same as there is no guarantee that Europe isn't going to go further tits up if we stay in.

xxx
sbob.
Leaning to out, but being dragged back to in by fear.
🙂

That's kind of my point sbob. The out campaign can't offer any picture of a post exit UK, because no-one knows who will be in power. I might be tempted to vote out if there were certain guarantees regarding the replacement of EU institutions which actually benefit our citizens.

I'm with THM on this one. Using the Euro (which was always a ridiculous, unworkable concept) to then condemn the whole idea of the EU is just plain daft.

In fact it only reinforces the fact that in reality, we've the best of both worlds. We have the advantages of being in this huge free trading area, with all the economic and political benefits of that, but we do so without being shackled to the single currency. Sounds like a bit of a result to me, that.

And I haven't heard a single even remotely convincing argument as to why we'd want to dump that arrangement, and how on earth we'd be better off if we did

I might be tempted to vote out if there were certain guarantees regarding the replacement of EU institutions which actually benefit our citizens.

That would be nice, but we'll probably just get a load of wishy-washy nothingness from both sides, much like the Scottish indy campaigns.

Thread tl;dr but done this one yet?...

If we vote out, we lose the free market that the EU provides and consumer protections. This would mean if we want to buy from other parts of the EU, companies can attempt to block the attempt if that works out cheaper than buying in the UK. In the EU this is currently illegal for companies to do and we've enjoyed being able to buy cheaper from another EU state. On top of that of course we don't have to faff with VAT & duty, though we do still pay VAT but it's at the local rate of the state we buy from.

Out of the EU and it all becomes the same as trying to buy something from outside the EU. VAT & import duty will apply, corporates will enforce market protection to ensure we pay the highest prices.

I'm no fan of the EU, but these are advantages which are worth keeping in my opinion.

You say something, are shown to be in error, and then pretend that you said something entirely different. Boring.

* Joke only not doing a cross thread thing nor bearing a grudge to be very very clear.

And I haven't heard a single even remotely convincing argument as to why we'd want to dump that arrangement, and how on earth we'd be better off if we did

Have you not been watching the news? We're on a path to that utopian pre-war society where we can call on our friends(?) in the empire to keep us in the means to which we're accustomed, where the royal navy rules the seas, everyone was white with a parochial english accent, bankers wear bowler hats, and those jack-booted germans and arrogant french will be put back in their place. What's not to like?

Gove want us to be more like America what with the guns, god fearing and Trump its a vision I dont have admire

If it wasn't for EU, 1000's of pensioners would have lost all their private pensions.

The EU overruled and found the U.K. guilty for lack of fail safes; who did nothing to help the pensioners and tried to cover it up. Pensioners got back around 90% of their savings.

They would have suffered and be broke if it wasn't for E.U. overruling the U.K.

In.

For civil rights, trade, jobs, travel and unity.

Migration needs to be better controlled and fair.

DrJ instead of bullying others at least visit Google and see who is exposed to risk due to Greece. That is ongoing.

They need to keep meeting their debt commitments. What happens when they can't? Keep on fudging it?

Do you want to be part of that?

To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?

yes, £500 million pa in Wales.

To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?

Thats just for starters

which was not true. This is why nobody can be bothered to debate with you. You say something, are shown to be in error, and then pretend that you said something entirely different. Boring.

#Jambafact