Just coz Churchill got his attorney general to draw up the hra doesn't mean we'd be implimenting them without EU enforcement
Europe owes us a lot for human rights
Adds Europe to list of areas where we civilised the savages
Ignores the historical fact the treaty was done by the Council of Europe and that the International declaration of Human rights predates its and accepts we gave them the concept
I'll be voting for out, mainly because I feel the EU has mutated into something very different from the institution that the UK voted to join all those years ago. Plus any organisation that is so resistant to change or the renegotiation of terms as the EU appears to be is one that is not worth being a part of.
Besides, change isn't always a bad thing and I don't see why unshackling ourselves from a declining economic arena would be a bad thing. Western Europe is no longer the economic and industrial powerhouse it used to be, neither is America for that matter. We should be exploring more innovative ways to make money with partners in India, South America and Asia.
Out. No net benefit to membership. Too many critical issues with membership.
We're such a huge export market for mainland EU that we'd still trade freely. Stories of economic woes are scaremongering and we'd reduce overheads significantly.
We're such a huge export market for mainland EU that we'd still trade freely.
I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen. Of course we'd still trade, but even a small increase in the cost of trading with the rest of Europe would have a significant economic impact. It doesn't take much of a change to tip the economy into recession. When you consider that trade will inevitably decrease, and the supply of cheap labour from abroad will be cut off, then it doesn't take much of imagination to predict what will happen.
Please remember this is not a left or right issue. Tony Benn, Michael Foot and many others respected leaders of the left disagreed with membership as it undermined the sovereignty of our elected parliament (Corbyn used to espouse this view until recently). Unfortunately Enoch Powell was also a proponent of this view. Historically the tories were pro membership.
EU membership is now not about economics its about the future of democracy of the UK, that short sighted in my view. If you move the center of government further away from the people don't be surprised if people feel unrepresented (yes it can be bad here but we can protest at the gates of Downing St). The MEP's have no binding power and mostly get to vote on binding EU law only when the commission put it in front of them. If the commission thinks they'll not win a vote of MEP's then there is no voting opportunity. If the MEP's vote against the wishes of the commission, that vote is ignored.
My concern for the long term about the EU is that for well meaning reasons we are walking into a totalitarian state. I'd prefer to be in a reformed EU that respects the sovereignty of the various elected governments, like them or not at least we can protest and vote who our leaders are.
I have experience in how the EU commission makes its laws and have found it to be a very frustrating experience (and interesting). One outstanding thing I have learned at the beginning of these processes is that the representative have almost always made up their minds of the outcome before the start of the consultations (bit like the UK). Once they bring a directive into law even if proved to be incorrect in purpose, it's almost impossible to get it changed.
Sorry to ramble on.
edit: spelling issues, probably more
When you consider that trade will inevitably decrease
I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen.
mikewsmith - Member
If anyone things we can get trade agreements done and locked in at incredibly favourable terms overnight is dreaming. ...As many have said the main issue with the UK and EU is a reluctance to get involved properly. Hanging back and trying to only pick the fun bits never works.
... identify them rather than the UK colour coded system the British delegation kicked off and pointed out that the UK had a much better system. The response from the rest of the committee was that it would have been great to have come along to the start of the process and suggest that then not complain at the end having not taken part in the process at all....
I also get the feeling that if chewkw managed to declare the independent state of chewkw with him as the only resident and government he would still hate the government.
That happens in commercial business dealings all the time so how the naive never sees what's coming astonish me ... You do have many business experts don't you? Oh hang on ... you industries are slowly disappearing.
Also negotiation and dealings are there to set standards. This is a winner takes all scenario or in BritLand case they gangbang you.
BritLand lot has just be bullied into EUSSR club without knowing or you don't know how to response because you give in so quickly with a slight hint of fear of a slight pain ...
It is Not really difficult, just like club membership you get people who abuse or make stooopid decision, playing the system but nothing can be done.
You raise your question(s) and concern(s) during the EUSSR club meeting but the majority rules means they gangbang you in your arse to ensure you comply with the rules. The majority apply pressure and you are now being gang bang ... obvious is obvious.
[b]
They have been salivating for you but could not do so when you had strong leadership but as it is nowadays you BritLand has such weak leaders the time is right for gang banging you.[/b]
[b]The description of your current leaders:
1. Cameron the young weak naive,
2. JC(not Jeusus Christ) the old mule out of ideas,
3. Farage the loud with wrong tactics,
4. Lib Dem the limping dream seekers,
5. Green Party the socially lost,
6. SNP the freedom from Scotland who prefer be eaten alive by EUSSR,
7. The Welsh party that is just juicy fat lamb for slaughter. [/b]
I might be amongst the few that want out but one thing I am certain of is that I can sleep well that nobody is going to gangbang me in the arse nor have I need comply to someone's else silly rules because they want to manipulate to dominate.
Some of the smaller nations are getting gangbang by the few larger nations in the club but BritLand will be the next ... time is right to gangbang this lot (putting pressure to open up and making the country's insignificant) because they are running out of pleasure (poor economy) in the smaller nations.
If you still have not woken up to the fact that joining the EU Club means letting others dictate full terms to you then you are delusional. Yes, some argue that you still have to comply to their club rules etc ... Well at least you can also start your own club with own rules and I am sure there are many who want to join.
The way the "In" vote is polling on STW I can only said that your own blood just sold you out.
Many years of political correctness have resulted in creating drones with very little ability to think critically.
🙄
Out.
chewkw like any good politician from what I have read you have used a lot of words and effectively said sweet FA.
I love the way everyone just assumes this will happen.
Go on then, explain how trade with the EU might increase after the removal of free trade and the introduction of tariffs.
ninfan - MemberI think that the biggest clue comes form the fact that so many of the people who are saying "out" would be a disaster are the same people who, a few years ago, were telling us that it would be a disaster if we didn't join the Euro...
That guy that interprets opinion polls who didn't come out of GE 2015 looking quite as much of a plonker as the others was on R4 yesterday morning pointing out amongst other things that graduates seem more in favour of staying in. Similar observations and exciting graph content 3/4 of the way down here:
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12086589/EU-referendum-Who-in-Britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html ]Telegraph linky[/url] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12086589/EU-referendum-Who-in-Britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html
Selfishly, I am worried about ttip and what would happen long term to my job and employers (health), but also about future trade agreements and workers/trade union legislation from a far right government who already act like they won by a landslide. Even under the EU we have somehow managed to have some of the 'worst' trade union legislation in europe ('worst' if you are a member of or work for a trade union I mean btw).
Also selfishly I have dual nationality so if UK is out, there is nothing stopping me asserting my right to live, work, claim benefits and enjoy the securities of Europe whatever happens and however silly it gets in future.
I fear that however maturely we debate it on here, for most of the public it will boil down to a couple easily soundbitten and fairly unrepresentative points. Also I predict that the motivation to get out of the house and physically put a vote in will be far higher amongst the 'out' side than the 'in' or 'oh I suppose we should stay in' side, or/and that the supposed 'shy tory' phenomenom will reporoduce itself with 'shy euroskeptics' and opinion polls will predct a lower 'out' vote than we will actually get on the day.
From debate on here as much as anything else I am leaning towards 'in', pending Cameron's 'deal' of course -and looking forward to the possibility of agreeing with CMD and a few of the big hitterz on here for once.
mikewsmith - Member
chewkw like any good politician from what I have read you have used a lot of words and effectively said sweet FA.
I don't know that much about FA but for EUSSR I can see them so clearly ... 😯 Not sure why perhaps I have been hanging out with ZM bureaucrats too much ...
yes I'm sure you do
I might be amongst the few that want out but one thing I am certain of is that I can sleep well that nobody is going to gangbang me in the arse nor have I need comply to someone's else silly rules because they want to manipulate to dominate.
Go on then, explain how trade with the EU might increase after the removal of free trade and the introduction of tariffs.
I was teasing really but obviously I can't explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.
We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.
It takes more than 10 mins to knock up a free trade agreement, what happens before they do?
Plus any organisation that is so resistant to change or the renegotiation of terms as the EU appears to be is one that is not worth being a part of.
Its not resistant to change its just resistant to doing what we want when everyone else wants somethign else. we are the noisy stubborn one at the table who wants to play a different game then say they are resistant to change when they point out we all agreed to do this.
I Laugh each time i read this. WHy would anyone think this?Its amazes that folk think this is true. Its arrogant twaddle. It keeps getting repeated on here with no evidence to support itWe're such a huge export market for mainland EU that we'd still trade freely
Think of a divorce then argue nothing will change afterwards as they still need you because you are so important. Factor in we just took away a large pot of money from them and told them to **** off after they changed the rules to get us to stay and then remember they are 5 x the size we are. You really think we will be the ones dictating terms?
we can clearly both live without each other and it seems unlikely they will go yes leave, annoy us, take your money but no here of course you can have all the economic benefits of free trade without any costs as you are just too important to us please dont go we need you please etc
Really why do folk thing this will happen ?
@ wrecker
clearly trade will be affected and negatively. the only thing worth discussing is for how long and how we can ameliorate the impact
FWWI i dont think economics is the only factor its ok to cry freedom and just leave but dont pretend it wont cost on the short to medium term
I was teasing really but obviously I can't explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise
Its not a guess to say the removal of free trade will impact on trade
the "guess" is at how bad it will be not if it will be negative.
Junkyard - lazarus
Its not resistant to change its just resistant to doing what we want when everyone else wants somethign else. we are the noisy stubborn one at the table who wants to play a different game then say they are resistant to change when they point out we all agreed to do this.
There is nothing wrong with being the noisy stubborn one.
We are who we are.
We either play your game or we get out or force you to play a different game. Simple.
We should not be ashamed of who we are after all we are happy as who we are.
Junkyard - lazarus
I Laugh each time i read this. WHy would anyone think this?Its amazes that folk think this is true. Its arrogant twaddle. It keeps getting repeated on here with no evidence to support it ...
The logic dictates that EU is a rich market and a closer one to BritLand physically but the the world is not just EU ... what a bunch of sorry arse that think EU is important. Look east ...
I can't explain how it would go any more than you or anyone else can. We're all just guessing and there is little point pretending otherwise.
Much as I share your scepticism of the 'science' of economics, It's not really guessing is it? It doesn't take an economic genius to work out that if you make something more expensive, then the amount of it happening is very likely to reduce. Even if what you say is true, are you really suggesting we take the risk of leaving even though we have no idea of what might happen?
We either play your game or we get out or force you to play a different game. Simple.We should not be ashamed of who we are after all we are happy as who we are.
Who's game? is this the ZM's game or ours in terms of being us as in a bunch of people who don't agree?
Why is the euro sceptic xenophobic view a good one? Maybe UK would be better properly integrated into the EU.
mikewsmith - Member
We either play your game or we get out or force you to play a different game. Simple.
We should not be ashamed of who we are after all we are happy as who we are.
Who's game? is this the ZM's game or ours in terms of being us as in a bunch of people who don't agree?
The rule of the game as it originally intended to ... I think alone the line of just common market or something but certainly NOT being absorbed into part of EUSSR.
Why is the euro sceptic xenophobic view a good one? Maybe UK would be better properly integrated into the EU.
There you go again ...
Not all foreigners like each other and not all of them like to live together.
[b]There is Nothing wrong with NOT liking someone else so long as you don't machete them for no reasons. [/b]
Just because they don't like each other does not mean they are xenophobic. They are simply just not compatible either in their lifestyle, religion or belief etc ...
They just don't like each other so why force them?
Who has made you the god to think for others?
It doesn't take an economic genius to work out that if you make something more expensive then the amount of it happening is very likely to reduce.
We don't know if anything will get more expensive. It's not a forgone conclusion. Trying to scaremonger by shouting that the EU will do their best to **** us is....scaremongering and nothing more. The economic geniuses can't seem to agree on what will happen. Most have admitted that they simply don't know.
are you really suggesting we take the risk of leaving even though we have no idea of what might happen?
I'm not suggesting anything, but you do make a good point. It is certainly a risk.
We don't know if anything will get more expensive.
We really do know free trade makes things cheaper than not having free trade. Free is always cheaper that not free
It's not a forgone conclusion.
Its is really is if we leave we really do leave the free trade area. We then need to negotiate to [free]trade with them. WHat do you think will happen at this point?
No one has said that what they have said is that thinking we can leave and nothing will change trade wise/we remain in the free trade area is unsound and an incredibly naive conclusion. Perhaps you could negate the actual point made rather than making up an argument and defeating that?Straw man is strawy.Trying to scaremonger by shouting that the EU will do their best to **** us is....scaremongering and nothing more.
You are right we cannot know for certain what will happen but even the most anti EU of UKIP want to keep the free trade so I think its fair to say everyone [ except you] accepts its loss will make things worse.
It really is preposterous to think we can leave tell them to **** off remove our money [ after they changed to get us to stay] and then they will just go yes of course you can keep all the benefits of free trade at no cost to yourself and with a non harmonised market as we need you. It wont happen it has no chance of happening and its naive to argue otherwise. All we can do is ask how bad this affects us as trade with the EU will clearly be impaired if we leave - if this was nto the case everyone could leave as nothing would happen
Just because they don't like each other does not mean they are xenophobic. They are simply just not compatible either in their lifestyle, religion or belief etc..
?
even with him blocked his patois is unmistakable and his logic still non existent
kelvin - Member
Just because they don't like each other does not mean they are xenophobic. They are simply just not compatible either in their lifestyle, religion or belief etc..
?
Just trying to double take on ... there is no shame if you don't like someone different from you so long as you don't machete them for no reasons.
You just don't cross path.
In other part of the world where there are multiple tribes/races/religions/cultures etc they just live side by side but they don't like each other that well yet they don't kill each other.
Do you get it? If you don't get it then stay out of the path like we do and not get involved in other cultures etc ...
Junkyard - lazarus
even with him blocked his patois is unmistakable and his logic still non existent
Crikey ... hello ...
I am sure Kelvin knows how to think for himself and not you poking your nose in ...
So you said you were not English (what are you then?) ... now apply that scenario to my logic ... You see? You see? You see what I mean the evidence is right infront of you.
Told you ...
We don't know if anything will get more expensive. It's not a forgone conclusion.
Yes, it is. I was previously resigned to the fact that the stupid and myopic people in this country will vote to leave, but if this is going to be the level of the pro-leave argument I'm feeling much better about it.
Consider this. If the UK leaves, and the rest of the EU wants to prevent other countries following us, do you think they will allow the UK to continue to receive the main benefits of being a member?
Junkyard - lazarus
We don't know if anything will get more expensive.
We really do know free trade makes things cheaper than not having free trade. Free is always cheaper that not free
Absolutely rubbish! Really ... that's rubbish talk. You are talking out of your arse!
You are "business guru" now are you while also the lefty propaganda mouthpiece ...
I think you are liking your own sounds now aren't you.
Go do more studies in that subject before trying to speak of such nonsense.
"[b]Free is always cheaper that not free.[/b]" <- WTF! 😆
Are you trying to outdo me? 😆
[b]It's like saying "holding fart in is better than not holding fart in"[/b]
Obvious is obvious ...
Oh ya .. answer my question if you are not English what are you? Simple.
Its is really is if we leave we really do leave the free trade area. We then need to negotiate to [free]trade with them. WHat do you think will happen at this point?
Absolutely rubbish bullcock again ...
If you let EUSSR bully you then they will.
If you want to sell out then you will quickly agree to their terms.
No one in their right minds would give up their own rights unless they have sinister intentions.
Consider this. If the UK leaves, and the rest of the EU wants to prevent other countries following us, do you think they will allow the UK to continue to receive the main benefits of being a member?
I doubt they'll even notice. They've got more pressing problems to deal with.
I doubt we'll notice either. Some political fudging will take place and it'll be business as normal.
Perhaps you could negate the actual point made rather than making up an argument and defeating that?
you're way off the mark there junky. It's easy to see what's happening, the pro EU lot are trying to scare everyone by dangling the economy carrot. I don't believe a word, there are bilateral agreements and even if not, as one of the biggest economies in the EU few companies can afford not to do business here. Making trading more difficult/expensive would be cutting their nose off to spite their face.
I doubt they'll even notice.
I'm rather confused. Either we're so important that they'll be begging for us to continue trading with them on preferential terms, or they won't notice us leaving? Which is it?
Anyone stuck all our in/out/shake it all about results on a spreadsheet and produced some nice graphs yet?
If not, is disappoint 😀
I'm rather confused. Either we're so important that they'll be begging for us to continue trading with them on preferential terms, or they won't notice us leaving? Which is it?
Both if you like*. Business will continue as usual due to mutual interests. Political fudging will enable this.
Nothing much will change.
* you are conflating different posters by the way, which might explain your confusion
as one of the biggest economies in the EU few companies can afford not to do business here.
Keep repeating it often enough and it might become true. 🙄
You could at least try to back up your opinions with some sort of reasoned argument, instead of just saying 'la la la la! You're just scaremongering!'. Why will businesses trade with UK companies when they can trade elsewhere within the EU and save money?
I wish I could choose my customers. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.
Seriously? You have not backed up your own argument at all! Why on earth should I back up mine?
Why will businesses trade with UK companies when they can trade elsewhere within the EU and save money?
Do you understand capitalism? It's not an "either/or" situation.
Do you understand capitalism?
I understand it enough to recognise that if something is more expensive then customers will look for cheaper options and go elsewhere when* they find them. You and 5thElement appear to be suggesting that EU businesses will be forced to trade with UK companies irregardless of price.
*not if. One of the other aspects of capitalism I understand is that it is very good at filling supply holes where demand exists.
No, I'm saying nothing will change. Hence the prices will be the same.
If you want to prove us wrong vote no and cross your fingers.
I couldn't care less if we leave or not. Nothing will change...
Junkyard-please explain the below given that all those selfish tory go getters will not be able purchase their BMW's and Audi's. I was under the impression that the collective trade balance was all on the rest of Europe's side. Being a bit difficult in trade deals works two ways when you are the target market.
"Its is really is if we leave we really do leave the free trade area. We then need to negotiate to [free]trade with them. WHat do you think will happen at this point?"
I should point out that our company is a manufacturer and an exporter so britex could be an issue, so I'd like your view not a rant :-).
You and 5thElement appear to be suggesting that EU businesses will be forced to trade with UK companies irregardless of price.
And I get accused of strawman?
Neither of us have suggested anything of the sort.
the pro EU lot are trying to scare everyone by dangling the economy carrot.
No we said that it wont remain the same when we leave. Pretend the argument other than this does you a disservice and its still a straw man. its not what was said.
I don't believe a word, there are bilateral agreements
Why not look at the agreements other European countries have *
and even if not, as one of the biggest economies in the EU few companies can afford not to do business here.
Arrogant twaddle We are so big the economy 5 x the sizes of ours cannot cope without us.Repeating this wont make it true Can abig supplier to Tesco dictate terms to Tesco? Can they really annoy Tesco then do it? Its daft to argue this.
I think you will find we are the ones leaving the clubMaking trading more difficult/expensive would be cutting their nose off to spite their face.
Its ludicrous to think you can leave a club and retain all the benefits of the club because you are so big
Really you think we withdraw from the free trade club and all it entails and they say yes fine keep trading no change there fellas. ? Really!!!!!Again why dont they all leave then as it wont make any difference . Honestly I am just shaking my head that anyone thinks this its ludicrous.
Can we pull out of Nato , not pay and still get the protection because we have a big army and some nukes so they need us.
I still cannot understand why anyone can think this is even a likely scenario the only question is how much will it cost and what will the impact
* The EEA is based on the same "four freedoms" as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries. Thus, the EEA countries that are not part of the EU enjoy free trade with the European Union. Also, '[t]he free movement of persons is one of the core rights guaranteed in the European Economic Area (EEA) ... [i]t is perhaps the most important right for individuals, as it gives citizens of the 30 EEA countries the opportunity to live, work, establish business and study in any of these countries.'[55]
As a counterpart, these countries have to adopt part of the Law of the European Union. However they also contribute to and influence the formation of new EEA relevant policies and legislation at an early stage as part of a formal decision-shaping process.[6]
Agriculture and fisheries are not covered by the EEA. Not being bound by the Common Fisheries Policy is perceived as very important by Norway and Iceland, and a major reason not to join the EU. The Common Fisheries Policy would mean giving away fishing quotas in their waters. They also want to be outside the Common Agriculture Policy, because it means that countries pay fairly much money based on GDP, which subsidise agriculture, which Norway and Iceland do not have so much of.
The EEA countries that are not part of the EU do not bear the financial burdens associated with EU membership, although they contribute financially to the European single market. After the EU/EEA enlargement of 2004, there was a tenfold increase in the financial contribution of the EEA States, in particular Norway, to social and economic cohesion in the Internal Market (€1167 million over five years). Non-EU countries do not receive any funding from EU policies and development funds.
As you can see its pretty much like being in the EU but with less say and many of those things are the reasons some of us want to leave. We wont be accepting free movement of people will we so how can we negotiate with them?
Edit: deleted my post, as this thread is full of dead ends.
We wont be accepting free movement of people will we...
I bet we will.
An out vote isn't a vote for Ukip. The same pro-Eu regime will be in place.
Neither of us have suggested anything of the sort.
You both deny that anything will change with regard to the cost of EU businesses dealing with the UK following brexit. The question you haven't answered is why the EU would continue to grant the UK the benefits of membership following our departure. All you've come up with is 'we're too big to ignore', or conversely in 5thElephant's case, 'they won't notice'.
Junkyard-please explain the below given that all those selfish tory go getters will not be able purchase their BMW's and Audi's. I was under the impression that the collective trade balance was all on the rest of Europe's side. Being a bit difficult in trade deals works two ways when you are the target market.
I am not sure what will happen beyond it not being exactly like it is now [ and trade with the EU impaired to some level] as they need us. They are bigger than us and pissed off what do you think will happen?
Why do folk think we can leave a club then negotiate all the benefits without the membership costs and with different nicer terms for us and worse for them?
Not a rant but I am just repeating myself
