[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

============oops, changed our mind and opened it again==================
enjoyed Ruth Davidson in that debate, played it very well

flanagaj - Member
Cameron is going to reform Europe, control immigration ... and as to Turkey joining and that ridiculous rumor regarding an EU army.

He will end up as motivation speaker and perhaps consultant to large organisations on trade ...

Also if PM Cameron is around it will be the EU that reforms the BritLand PM Cameron not the other way round. Remember those in EU will gang-bang PM Cameron coz that's the nature of things.

Finally the reason is simple BritLand has weak leaders.

hh45. You're being sarcastic surely? the financial markets rarely get it wrong? Where were you in 2008. But they know they'll get bailed out so they don't care if they get it wrong - they're covered either way.

Sorry, I meant usually right in terms of getting election results correct; e.g. Scottish referendum

 

Bonners, chill, not that bad probably more likely to see an Argentine emulation though, given the state of our navy, more likely to be post-millennial sabre rattling about Gibraltar rather than an embarrassing early 80s invasion.

Taking all the nonsense aside, I don't think there are any winners in this.
I see leave as a step into the unknown and remain as a hope for the status quo with the hope of getting scraps from the European table to better ourselves.
I think that if we do remain, we need to fully embrace Europe, adopt the euro and stop sitting on the fence picking and choosing which policies we agree with.
But if we leave, we need to elect officials who can be compassionate, selfless and continue with the principles of which the EU was formed without all the negatives.

Why cant the original 9 members of the EU remains just 9? Do people actually learn from history?? How many empires fall down in its own weight expansion? ..ok,might not be relevant ..just saying 😐

adopt the euro

Are you mental? That would be enough to swing me to the other side.

As it is, the EU paid for the pond on my parents farm, so vote remain for awesome ponds.

I think the UK economy will go from strength to strength by staying in the EU. The member states are all doing really well so we can hopefully have a slice of the cake too

Not sure it's true to say that the member states are all doing really well. Unless this is sarcasm, and we're talking about a cake made from dust and ashes.

I see Vote Leave caught out lying AGAIN twice today

Are they really that desperate ?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/john-barnes-hits-back-michael-gove-remarks-eu-referendum

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/eu-referendum-david-beckham-victoria-beckham-leave-eu-brexit-quote-a7093196.html

Still torn. My thoughts had been that out would be more likely to lead to a reformed EU which we could then join.

However, current state of the nation leads me to question whether Rejoin could ever win a vote against Stay Out.

This makes me think better off in, where at least there is the hope of one day being a part of a reformed EU!

whatnobeer - Member
adopt the euro
Are you mental?

How can the EU model work with halfway-house members?
People say it is selfish to leave but is it not selfish to remain and make demands only to favour the UK?

So the counter argument- how are young people/people in the lowest working class supposed to find work with increasing competition to jobs?
Why are remain shouting and shouting over? Unstable idiots shout down people.

I spent 9 months out of work when I was 29. I ended up taking a job in France. I got 9 months out of that and got a call about a job in Mannheim Germany, where incidentally, I met my fiennce.

Absolutely great this EU business.

I spent 9 months out of work when I was 29. I ended up taking a job in France. I got 9 months out of that and got a call about a job in Mannheim Germany, where incidentally, I met my fiennce.

what if you already had a family and weren't so mobile, perhaps having bought your home?

This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.

And I am a lifelong tory voter who will never vote labour, but it seems to me that this EU thing is even worse ultimately.

Apart from anything, countries like Turkey aren't even in Europe.

The economy wouldn't implode with Brexit - it would do fine.

Still torn. My thoughts had been that out would be more likely to lead to a reformed EU which we could then join.

Remember those in EU will gang-bang PM Cameron coz that's the nature of things.

not sure that's gonna be the case, a government could still start the exit process I think without needing a referendum. If we vote remain and then the EU start screwing us around and the people take note, the next government could easily put the exit mandate in their campaign and exit us at the next election, could they not?

A few days ago I was concerned that Leave might win, but now it seems to me that they are running on empty - just the usual Johnson lies and Leadsome saying "take back control" every time she opens her mouth. In a way it echoes the discussion on here - Jamba never answering THMs questions and sounding ever more shrill and vacant repeating the old discredited slogans over and over. Of course the usual bigots will vote Leave, and there are some who will make a principled choice based on the democratic deficit in the EU, but I don't think Leave will sway enough undecided normal people to win. We shall see!!

spent 9 months out of work when I was 29. I ended up taking a job in France. I got 9 months out of that and got a call about a job in Mannheim Germany,

Aye, thats definitely what we need more of

TurnerGuy - Member

Remember those in EU will gang-bang PM Cameron coz that's the nature of things.

not sure that's gonna be the case, a government could still start the exit process I think without needing a referendum. If we vote remain and then the EU start screwing us around and the people take note, the next government could easily put the exit mandate in their campaign and exit us at the next election, could they not?

The problem with BritLand is weak leadership.

The current BritLand PM will only be there for another 3 years or so then he will become motivation speaker or consultant ...

The replacement PM might divide the country ...

The opposition leadership (JC not Jesus Christ) is simply hell bend on creating new Red Army. Absolutely dated.

The Stewart opposition leadership such as the Kinnock will only use it to forward their own purse ... I mean they are part of political dynasty from Denmark to UK ... what will is there to oppose EU when they are the elites themselves while the Welsh people struggle to find answer to their lives.

Even Hilary Benn waits for the dust to settle before daring to stick his head out in fear of the chop if moving forward at the wrong time ...

The minority leadership just want to become rock stars and celebrities with hardly any substance to lead ... more like divide.

Where are the BritLand leadership?

Chewkw - you are Katie Hopkins and I win my £5.

Apart from anything, countries like Turkey aren't even in Europe.

WHAT? Haven't you been watching Eurovision? I will have you know that Turkey is very much in Europe, as is Israel. Oh, and Australia too

If we vote remain and then the EU start screwing us around and the people take note, the next government could easily put the exit mandate in their campaign and exit us at the next election, could they not?

1) they wont have an actual majority of voters
2) Scotland will demand a referendum

Its just not likely to happen unless UKIP win and that is not going to happen

Also worth noting the overwhelming majority of MPs are remain so they may not even be loyal to the party - ie a free vote in parliament to leave wont win and neither might a whipped one

DrJ - nice to be on the same side for a change 😉

I am currently on a golf tour, 36 holes each day so not time for news, Internet, STW etc. It is remarkably refreshing to be away from the crap of the debate - just had dinner in a wonderful little people French bistro in Devon. We all felt v European.

Spilt feeling on vote though - all of us INers but with different views on outcome, I still think that the quiet minority are Iners and that common sense will prevail, but that is not the consensus view here.

Two days to go - only 18 holes tomorrow and back in time to vote!!!!!

This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.

Sorry - the low skilled have to stop being low skilled... Globalisation, not the EU, demands it. That means that out UK politicians have to sort out education and training (no EU interference there - just Gove 😉 )

Wilson's "White heat of technology" speech was 53 years ago, but we still aren't equipping our school leavers for our post industrial world where there are no well paid jobs for life. My son did his last GCSE exam today. Despite attending a relatively good school, he reckons over half just don't give a fwk.

Sorry, EU immigration, Polish plumbers, Romainian cleaners etc - just an excuse for many.

This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.

are you saying if we leave the EU that benign capitalism will sweep our nation and suddenly the least skilled in our society will get a good deal?they will still just get the minimum wage and not be able to afford housing. None of this is the fault of the EU or migrant. We are blaming the wrong people and the people we should blame are leading both campaigns.

Their treatment stinks to think leaving the EU will make any difference at all to this is naive.

WHen tories makes this arguments its deceptive BS like saving the NHS

Chewy - us Brits are suspicious of strong leaders... They tend to lead folks to dark corners where we'd prefer not to follow. Cromwell was probably ours, and since then history has had the peoples of these islands having to put down our work tools and get involved in sorting out other country's "strong leadership" problems...

(And that's way more than enough jingoistic tripe from me)

rkk01 - Member
Chewy - us Brits are suspicious of strong leaders... They tend to lead folks to dark corners where we'd prefer not to follow. Cromwell was probably ours, and since then history has had the peoples of these islands having to put down our work tools and get involved in sorting out other country's "strong leadership" problems...

(And that's way more than enough jingoistic tripe from me)

You need a strong leader but not a leader you worship if you get my drift.

Slight distraction ...

I remember mentioning Cromwell to my Irish volleague after watching the historical channel and I got an ear full of swearing ... so funny. She was not swearing at me but Cromwell. 😆

That means that out UK politicians have to sort out education and training

what if they are not too bright - the Gamma, Delta and Epsilon classes ?

Are they just screwed then ?

I seem to remember listening to a debate where business people were praising the Gove effect and saying they were starting to see better educated applicants.

Sorry, polish plumbers, etc are not the problem, the problem is that if we already have enough plumbers, then flooding the market with plumbers just means that plumbers have to start working for f-all, which might be OK if you are living cheaply in a country temporarily but if you are trying to support a home and family then you have problems.

But there aren't enough of other trades and, for example, trying to get a builder to even come round and give a quote is difficult. So we need more builders, so we let them in under the 'points' system as we now we have a shortage, so we are managing our society and protecting the local workers.

But with plumbers and builders we are also talking of fairly mobile skills.

What if you assemble cars as a job, and then the company movs to Turkey, like the Ford example. What do you do now as assembling cars is not really a mobile skillset?

The EU just seems to be an extension of globalisation, especially if you look at TTIP.

are you saying if we leave the EU that benign capitalism will sweep our nation and suddenly the least skilled in our society will get a good deal?

if people get hacked off enough with the current government and vote another party in, then maybe. And that government will have a lot more scope to effect changes.

For instance if Corbyn got in, god forbid, then he might decide to nationalise the railways as he thinks it is good for the country as it is part of its infrastructure. And he would be able to do it if we leave, but if we stay he can't because of EU rules.

And TTIP itself has enough in it to indicate that the NHS is doomed, except that the EU have had to explicity specify that health services are safe. But what about all the other public services? I suppose they are fair game for destruction ?

And if the EU start punishing the UK after an In vote then the will to leave may well be strong enough at the next election - imagine the ammunition Boris would have to argue with - any remainers wouldn't stand a chance.

And the SNP might also find it more difficult to garner support to stay if the EU took any vindictive action.

what if they are not too bright - the Gamma, Delta and Epsilon classes ?
Are they just screwed then ?

Intelligence isn't as important as attitude - there are plenty of examples of successful people who are not academically "bright". The rest - well cruise through school, don't give a shit, regard ignorance as a virtue and vilify any kid who has some get up and go (subjects, sports, music, extra curricular).

Any kid that shows what they can do gets cut down by their peers. Nothing to do with the EU, nothing to be solved by target driven education problems. This is a good old fashioned British hang up. What's needed to solve it is inspiration and self belief. It's a fear of failure and lack of self confidence issue. Trouble is, 10 yrs after school they realise there in a shit spot with no way out

turner guy you are nearing the point where you make Jamby look lucid and fact based

Perhaps he lacks your skills of ridiculing two people in one go without saying anything useful or constructive.

Jamba never answering THMs questions

I answered his question repeatedly, he didn't like the answer. Or more accurately he thought my answer was not worthy of his question.

@welshfarmer - crude anecdotal survey on farm signs would be similar in Hampshire 80/20 leave/remain and the farming person I spoke to in the Lake District suggested the same there. Whilst the general public may assume they are happy as they "get money" the farmers are generally fed up with the EU meddling.

As Boris said tonight there are (probably) 200 million people in the EU who'd like to get out and more than that who would like a referendum

On Scotland, the SNP had two years to make their arguments including factoring the possibility of a UK EU exit. Voters, I imagine, took that fully into consideration. So the scenario was covered. At least if there was one now Salmond would not even have to be asked the currency question as with the UK out of the EU Scotland would have to take the euro and quite probably immediately.

[quote=ernie_lynch ]Perhaps he lacks your skills of ridiculing two people in one go without saying anything useful or constructive.

Thanks but, as that post shows, I am forever in your shadow in the sarcastic pithy put downs

I answered his question repeatedly,

he didn't like the answer.

Or more accurately he thought my answer was not worthy of his question.

Everyone knows you avoided answering his questions repeating things like that is just odd- was that polite enough ernie?

Thanks but, as that post shows, I am forever in your shadow in the sarcastic pithy put downs

Well generally when I take the piss out of someone I like to include something vaguely constructive.

Still, TurnerGuy might not be at our more advanced level of pisstaking.

Although I think you have much to learn grasshopper.

A question if I may.

There was a fair bit of handbags between our resident financial gurus about the UK's exposure to Eurozone debt and contributions to Eurozone bailouts. I accept THM's stance that the UK isn't currently obliged to contribute anything to any future bailouts. However, the way I read it is the "guarantee" that Cameron obtained relates specifically to 'non-Eurozone' countries and not to the UK in particular. So if we joined the Euro, which is a distinct possibility should a Remain vote prevail*, our status as a non-Eurozone country is nullified and the barrier between us and Eurozone financial crises is instantly removed.

Is this correct?

*The Maastricht Treaty only means we're not obliged to join, not that we never will. Otherwise why would the coalition government of 2010 need to promise that we wouldn't join the Euro before the 2015 election?

EU took any vindictive action.

I think is a red herring. "Vindictive action" would very likely backfire imo as other eurosceptic nations are going to intensify their demands of their own referendums.

Independent Scotland is going to have a real problem in joining the EU as the Spanish will almost certainly block them or at the very least stall for years to send a message to Catalonia. The politics of vested interest.

The Flying, imo we will never join even in the event of Remain. No one now thinks thats a good idea, even if a few years ago they said it was "economically essential"

There is a substantially greater chance of Germany exiting the euro than UK joining imo.

@ ox if we join the Euro is such a big if ts not worth answering; we have an opt out and we are not joining so the question is pointless

No question is pointless. If not joining is such a given, why would a government have to specifically mention no plans to join during that government's term in power?

. If not joining is such a given, why would a government have to specifically mention no plans to join during that government's term in power?

Germany leave the Euro? Check out its balance of trade. The Euro is at a comfortable rate for keeping the engines of industry going.

Fkying, its an easy thing for Cameron to say and he hopes it will make him look tough, standing up to the EU and all that. So why not (from his perspective). Its like that Morcombe and Wise Mastermind sketch - specialist subject - the bleeding obvious

Ben Goldacre of Bad Science fame posted his reasons for voting remain ... [url= https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YdtUabICi-C1RMMJGOJQH2omv1sJ53zUlJLH1Ets8BM/edit?pref=2&pli=1 ]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YdtUabICi-C1RMMJGOJQH2omv1sJ53zUlJLH1Ets8BM/edit?pref=2&pli=1[/url]

Yet another voice of reason...

At least if there was one now Salmond would not even have to be asked the currency question as with the UK out of the EU Scotland would have to take the euro and quite probably immediately.

[i]TurnerGuy - Member[/i]

[i]Posted 3 days ago # Report-Post[/i]

Just finished watching that. Unsurprisingly I pretty much agreed with it all. However the arguments it contained have been comprehensively ignored by the media, again unsurprisingly.

And it's very long which sadly means that only committed left-wingers opposed to the EU are likely to have the commitment to watch it through. Which obviously completely misses the target audience.

It's particularly good from 29 mins imo.

Be happy Vote OUT.

Take charge of your own destiny and do Not let the EU bureaucrats take charge of you.

The world can take care of itself Not you.

Look after your own family and the world will take care of itself.

All those elites will only put you in your place coz they need you to have "challenge" in life.

Vote OUT for your children ... not the EU bureaucrats nor the elites.

Vote OUT for your children

Phew!, thank god for that ........I don't have any children and no desire to ever own any, however I do have a Jack Russell (Toby) so I guess I'll be ok to vote IN

Ben Goldacre of Bad Science fame posted his reasons for voting remain ...

I'm calling Poe's Law.

somafunk - Member

Vote OUT for your children

Phew!, thank god for that ........I don't have any children and no desire to ever own any, however I do have a Jack Russell (Toby) so I guess I'll be ok to vote IN

For those that CBA to real the link

Why I am voting Remain.
by Ben Goldacre, aged 41.

A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.
The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control. You couldn’t get political agreement from the people in one family, one pub, or one bus. You can’t “vote them out”, you’ve never done that, stop pretending you can do it in the future. Politics is about compromise: terrible, soul-destroying, mature compromise with other people, most of whom are awful. Your local council don’t represent your views and values any better than your MEP.

Immigration is just going to happen.
In or out of the EU, there will be lots, and lots of immigration: bad luck if you don’t like that. We’re perfectly able to control non-EU immigration, right now, and yet no government ever does. They never will. This is not the fault of the EU, it’s more complicated than that. Deal with it. Immigration will never stop.

“Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault.
This is not the fault of the EU. It’s your fault. It’s happened slowly. The UK has failed to build houses, failed to train hospital staff, failed to invest in the NHS, failed to build schools. Your country. Your UK. Your government. Your fault. Nobody else. The NHS is staffed by immigrants, they keep it running, they will save your life and build your house. Don’t try to blame them for things that are your fault.

The EU is a good shot at preserving peace.
Remember that news story about the British generals who think we should leave the EU because NATO preserves peace, not the EU? These are bad generals who only know about guns. Russia right now is an odd, aggressive country. But they didn’t show up at the Ukrainian border with tanks, out of the blue: they manufactured a social and economic pretext before they rolled in. A strong EU makes this kind of pretext harder to contrive. You want to be good close friends with all your neighbours, and their neighbours, as far as the eye can see. That’s how you hold a line that preserves peace: by sharing friendship, sharing trade, and sharing grumbles about crap admin in Brussels. You do not preserve peace by buying and using weapons.

Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers.
The Brexit campaign talk about “taking control”, about “building an optimistic future” for yourself. These are things you say to losers: to people who feel they have no control, or a gloomy future. It’s the language of crap self-help books in airport bookshops. You are better than that.

Countries come and go.
Right now, people talk about Eastern Europeans like they’re biologically destined to be parasites, because their countries are poorer, and some of their citizens travel for work. That could change, really fast. Polish people are not a biologically inferior race: they lived under communism for four decades, and now they’re catching up. Poland has the fastest growing economy in Europe (faster than Central Europe, faster than the EU-15). Warsaw is full of skyscrapers. Be nice. Make friends now. Cement those ties to a large, fast growing European economy with a rich cultural history.

Brexit will hurt the economy.
This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.

Ben Goldacre
www.badscience.net

Paragraph one: our vote is meaningless, we can't "vote out" anyone and so by extension we can't "vote in" anyone.
Paragraph three: "straining" schools, NHS waiting list, etc. is our fault. Yours and mine. Because of our government. The one we can't vote out, or in.
I'm calling Poe's Law.

Honestly if leave can present their arguments in neat little silo's why can't remain.
It's taking on the arguments one at a time, the EU is as democratic (or at least as democratic as the UK).
UK governements have failed to address most major infrastructure issues in the UK from power generation, rail infrastructure, roads, housing, schooling and health. None of this is the fault of the EU or immigrants. Don't blame immigration for things the UK government didn't do.

I'm not blaming immigration for anything. I never even mentioned immigration. I'm all for immigration. I think it's healthy and progressive and necessary.

The referendum is not a single-issue vote, no matter how much some try to frame it as one.

the EU is as democratic ([b]or at least as democratic as the UK[/b]).

I'm not blaming immigration for anything. I never even mentioned immigration. I'm all for immigration. I think it's healthy and progressive and necessary.

On Democratic remind me again how you voted for the house of lords?

The referendum is not a single-issue vote, no matter how much some try to frame it as one.

found this, but i'm seriously colour blind....

[img] [/img]

On Democratic remind me again how you voted for the house of lords?

I didn't vote for anyone in the House of Lords, as you well know. I am eligible to apply to become one though, as are you. Seeing as we're doing "questions to which we already know the answer", how do I apply for a seat on the EU Commission?

Regarding differences between the UK and the EU, the Lords are appointed by people who [i]were[/i] elected by the UK voting public. The EU Commission are appointed by - yes, in part, people that the UK public have voted for - but also by people from 27 other countries, whose position in the appointment procedure neither you nor I have any say in.

Another difference is that the House of Commons are able to suggest bills, many of which are manifesto pledges upon which we, the UK voting public, elect them on; suggesting bills is not the sole preserve of the appointed Lords.

Remember: I'm not saying the EU is undemocratic. It's just by dent of being a supra-national organisation it necessarily dilutes national democracy. As such you cannot claim it is as democratic as the UK, from the perspective of a UK citizen.

Regarding differences between the UK and the EU, the Lords are appointed by people who were elected by the UK voting public.

As such you cannot claim it is as democratic as the UK, from the perspective of a UK citizen.

The EU Commission are appointed by - yes, in part, people that the UK public have voted for - but also by people from 27 other countries, whose position in the appointment procedure neither you nor I have any say in.

From where I stand and my perspective the world is flat... statements about democrocy and soveregnty are their to effect people who alreadyt share that perspective. The apathy about EU elections doesn't help.

Then all bills go back to the MEP's for voting.

I have no idea what that means, other than potentially you're a flat-earther?

However, the Council and Parliament may request the Commission to draft legislation, though the Commission does have the power to refuse to do so[50] as it did in 2008 over transnational collective conventions.[51] Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU citizens are also able to request the Commission to legislate in an area via a petition carrying one million signatures, but this is not binding.[52]

The style of operations doesn't really suit the adversrial nature of UK politic though with people needing to be for or againast stuff, but does suit a cooperational style where a group is elected to be impartial of their national interest to move things forward for the improvement of all.

And the UK keeps sending idiots who can't be bothered to participate to the one place that they can make a difference in the EU.

In many ways short term 2 party politics is something that has held back the UK more than being in the EU - see above about skipping on major infrastructure when it was needed or always having to worry about the minority of swing voters in the middle. Watching a national election going on at the moment you see how the power is concentrated in the homes of the undecided/swing electorates.

Why is there always an assumption that the Brexit camp do not understand the peculiarities of the UK parliament system?

...the Lords are appointed

With the exception of the 26 Bishops (Seriouslyt WTF!) and [s]96[/s] 92 Herediatry ones

Still, my point (just about) stands. The accountability of lawmakers in the EU is a number of degrees further removed from the citizens of the EU than is the case for national governments and their electorate.

Yep 92, typo.
Of those that are appointed how many earned that place to scrutinise laws and pass or reject them based on the amount of money they donated to a political party? or becasue they did a stint in government but had to leave under dubious circumstances ?

The list is interesting but hardly representative of the UK Electorate or accountable to any of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_House_of_Lords

The Current UK government appoints a commisioner, they as a group steer the EU body and that all actions are voted on by MEP's voted for by the citizens of Eurpoe.
Probably the most undemocratic bit is the UK's Veto

At most you can probably claim 1 degree? as the Government appoints commisioners, but then the rest is dealt with by officials elected by us.

For UK government - you vote, somebody gets elected, depending on who's in power that representative may have little/some/no power, all decisions are then ratified by a bunch of people who have never been elected 15% of them are there because they either got to the top of the Church Pyramid or because they fell out between the right pair of legs. The rest are all their for a variety of reasons non of which are related to elections, voting or the public accountability.

They're not directly accountable no, and I'm not arguing that they are. But the Lords ultimately cannot veto law, they can only delay its assent. In the UK, the people we directly elect have the final say on what's on the status books. In the EU it's different.

I feel you're trying to dismantle an argument I haven't made. I'm not saying the EU is undemocratic. I'm not saying that the UK system is perfect. I'm just saying that claims that the EU is "at least" as democratic as the UK would appear to be unfounded, for the reasons I've given.

Fair enough, neither is perfect... The EU is democratic to the people of Europe same as the UK pariament is democratic to the people of the UK as opposed to the people of Stockport.

Which Queeen are you voting for next time?

The EU is democratic to the people of Europe same as the UK pariament is democratic to the people of the UK as opposed to the people of Stockport.

Fair enough, neither is perfect... The EU is democratic to the people of Europe same as the UK pariament is democratic to the people of the UK as opposed to the people of Stockport.

Stockport is earmarked for big changes in the coming years, it is one of the more affluent areas of greater Manchester,the least populated and the least diverse.

Expect big changes.

You can kiss goodbye to Stockport as you know it.

OK Scotland then 🙂
The UK still has it's power, it still have it's soverengty, it still has a parliament that makes laws for the people. We have decided to embrace a bigger community in which we accept some of the rules of the greater group.

The EU just seems to be an extension of globalisation, especially TTIP

Yep and [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/what-is-ttip-and-why-does-cameron-want-to-sign-the-biggest-trade-agreement-in-history-10247456.html ]Cameron is one of its biggest fans[/url].

Just as well we are in the EU, as they have provided a lot of the resistance and oversight that has prevented TTIP from being ratified. If we weren't in the EU we'd already have adopted it, and probably with worse terms due to a weaker negotiating position.

Just as well we are in the EU, as they have provided a lot of the resistance and oversight that has prevented TTIP from being ratified. If we weren't in the EU we'd already have adopted it, and probably with worse terms due to a weaker negotiating position.

Absolutely, will TTIP ever get passed, its been in negotiations for so long and been watered down so much already

Posted in the other thread but a good summary from the guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb
5 big issues, boil. Down to 5 questions.

Its like any other election....think back on all the general elections, what has genuinely changed for you? The day after? The week after? the year after...nothing in your life changes.

The day after? The week after? the year after...nothing in your life changes.

Ask the people who have no jobs or were part of cut backs, or those hired because of a new programme or funding. This vote will have a massive impact on the future of the UK if it's leave.

It works both ways. Nothing is guaranteed by staying in the EU.

Absolutely but things will change massively if we leave, I'm sure you can agree it's not a thing to be so apathetic about. For better or worse regardless of your side voting for something so fundermental to the future of the UK is important.

I asked the specific question, what has changed for you?

Some idiots caved in and held a Referendum on Scottish independence and eu membership, the overall management of my former employer was changed post an election, rules about moving my pension.
Just a few things.