In, as it's hugely better than the alternative.
What negotiating position? Companies want to sell stuff. They aren't going to give a shit if we're in the EU if they turn a profit from us. Somehow restricting trade from europe will damage the bottom lines of the companies, and therefore european growth.
Saying that they'll turn the taps off is wrong.
Saying that they'll turn the taps off is wrong.
Indeed we will still trade with the EU but nowhere near as easily or as freely as now whilst in the common market
However some seem to think our strong negotiation position means they need us so when we leave they will let us continue to trade unabated- that was the initial point i countered as it fanciful nonsense- as indeed is claiming all trade will cease.
We may get trade but it will come at a price and there will be lots of change
Do we not need each other?
That's the basis of trade, no?
Is this anti-Uk behavior to be expected if we leave? Would have been expected of the rUK if the scots had left?
Also, the further they cast us away, the less likely it would be that we rejoined at a future date.
I dunno. Makes my head hurt.
we are both materially better off with each other but we dont need each other. I think the divorce analogy is the best one here
Couple do many things but cooperate at break up is rarely amongst the choices made and its is so unlikely that we leave yet keep the only bit we want [ free trade] is fanciful
How much either side decides to hurt the other and co operate is anyones guess but no change and free trade is not going to be the outcome - well not without paying and obeying the rules but having no say over them.
Out, and I think that another summer of the migrant crisis will seal it for the 'out' campaign.
I have monitored this thread with great interest most of the day and as a result have read or listened to a variety of sources about the issue of our EU membership. I came from a position of not really caring either way about whether we stayed in or came out as I could see both sides of the argument.
I think the socio-economic arguments will rage backwards and forwards for a long time and must admit I can't really say with any certainty which I believe. However, I started to think about my own attitudes at a very basic, personal level. I have travelled extensively through Europe over the years and have to say I quite like most of the people I have encountered and envy many aspects of the the various societies.
Therefore I have decided I am now firmly in the "in" camp and would really like to see Britain abandon all it's petty objections and really make a go of trying to fix the many problems that the EU face from the inside rather than acting like a surly teenager begrudgingly on holiday with their parents. Just imagine if the French, Germans and British really got together with all the other member states and tried to pull together rather than bickering all the time. It would be nice to see what things would be like if we cooperated a bit more rather than trying to veto all the time.
We still want to trade but we dont want to pay. Its never ever going to happen like that ever. Look how little he got when we had the threat of money and they were trying to keep us.
Can we keep the Euro when we leave then?
Its OUR Euro remember! 😉
And before the usual suspects start repeating Sturgeons utter bullshite about how they aren't bound by the westminster referendum, they might want to read the Scotland Act
[i]Scotland Act 1998, Schedule 5, Reserved Matters:
7(1)International relations, including relations with territories outside the United Kingdom, the [F3 European Union](and their institutions) and other international organisations, regulation of international trade, and international development assistance and co-operation are reserved matters.[/i]
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5
How much either side decides to hurt the other and co operate is anyones guess but no change and free trade is not going to be the outcome - well not without paying and obeying the rules but having no say over them.
Quite. Expecting politicians to behave like adults is a big ask!
FWIW, I have no problems with contributing (although perhaps to a lesser extent than currently), nor immigration. I have an issue with the "unquestionable power" thing. Parhaps having a more lassaiz faire attitude to the EU regs (as many others have) could work. Not really in the british psyche though.
Changing the calc to make us pay more was piss poor IMHO.
Can we keep the Euro when we leave then?Its OUR Euro remember!
Neatly not addressing the point you made about how money meant we had a string negotiating position was basically wrong.
No one doubts that Scotland has to abide by this under our current law
Its difficult to predict what would happen if they had a separate vote and voted to stay[ or the result showed they voted to stay], which is not unlikely. However its hard to see how they could do this legally and whether the result would be respected. Constitution v democracy woudl be an interesting time.
WOuld be ironic to force them to leave one union they wanted to be in and stay in one they now want to leave then argue its democracy in action. Hard to see how keeping them there very angry helps the uk issue much as well.
Personally, beyond it being a shit storm, I would not like to make a prediction.
@ wrecker - is it really true that others do just ignore the rules or is it just another one of those things everyone has heard so often abut the EU we think it is true.
Busy but will google afterwards as I do not know if there is any truth in this claim.
A reluctant out.
I had previously been very pro - Europe but I do not like the direction it has gone in over the last 10 years. Very ideologically driven.
is it really true that others do just ignore the rules or is it just another one of those things everyone has heard so often abut the EU we think it is true.
I can only speak from my experience, certainly the EPBD (which bought us EPCs) has been either ignored or fiddled by and large on the continent.
In.
Anyone who thinks Out is stupid beyond redemption. Why would you vote against your own interests (workers' rights, safety legislation, free market etc) unless you'd been hoodwinked by media who want out so that they can reduce their costs ?
Whilst we're at it, we'd have been much better off IN the euro. Our position would be similar to Germany's. I just sent some time working there, my god it's civilised. And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.
Anyone who thinks Out is stupid beyond redemption.
That's very rude. It's a very complex question that no-one actually knows the answer to. Clearly there are stupid arguments for both sides.
That said, In.
[b]as a british citizen [/b]by a quirk of geography you are also a european, as Britain is technically within the boundaries of western europe, our culture is european in terms of historical interaction, art, music, religion etc.etc.
Not very good pedantry - you could easily be a British citizen without ever having been to Britain or Europe, and not having the slightest connection to British or European history, art, music, religion etc.
retro83 - Member
bowglie - Member
The Japanese companies manufacture here to get around EU quotas, so they're not going to hang around if the UK leaves the EU.
Toyoda has said that Toyota will stay regardless.
Toyota knows how good BritLand is by comparison to the EUSSR. Hence staying. Nuff said. Good enough for Toyota good enough for me.
Toyota! Toyota! Toyota! Oi! Oi! Oi! 😆
As I said before I was strongly in precisely because of the workers rights,safety regulations, human rights etc but the behaviour of the EU towards Greece has made me question how much it is in the pocket of global multinationals and banks. Then there's the TTIP issue with negotiations shrouded in secrecy doesn't inspire confidence in the desire of the EU to represent it's peoples interests well. So now I am undecided.
In
WorldClassAccident
The OUT campaign seems mainly to be 'They' are making rules for 'Us' and 'We' want control back.It seems fair until you ask who 'They' are and who 'We' are.
We are British and They are not - actually I am English but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Britain.
Okay, We are English and They are not - Actually I am from Hampshire but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of England.
Okay, We are Hampshire and They are not - Actually I am from Southampton but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Hampshire.
Okay, We are Southampton...
I guess the logical end result is that we all live as individuals with no cooperation and no joined up rules, collective responsibility etc. I guess that is why the Out campaign tends to be favored by those who have least to gain by sharing with others and most to gain by exploiting their relative strength over others.
I am sure there is a reverse argument that will pop up shortly but for the moment I am in.
This^
EU means ...
Ease of people movement.
East of competition.
The question is can you hack it?
Obvious is obvious ...
😆
In.
In
Likely out. Agree with gordimhor above. CAP boils my piss too.
Of course the worry is that even if we come out the Tories will sign us up for TTIP.
Looks like the "In" votes has won to enslave everyone ... 😮
BritLand has finally gone to the dogs.
Oh well I have tried to warn you Brits that the EU bureaucratic machine will reel you in slowly ... catchy monkey! You are moving into a very dangerous ground for your children but then you would be dead by the time they suffer.
As a legal alien I can feel the tide slowly turning against BritLand but [b]the truth is you have to thank your own blood for offering you to the lion's den.[/b] Surprise!!! 😆
The PC and the bureaucratic system will soon turn you into a non-entity. You will not have your own identity unless you are of certain religion that commit mass killings.
Never mind, even if 99% of voters vote in ... I am going vote Out!
Let's see how many centuries will the PC mentality last ... 😆
If anyone things we can get trade agreements done and locked in at incredibly favourable terms overnight is dreaming. As mentioned above to sell into the EU we would have to follow all the EU rules and regulations but have no say in any of it.
Australia recently/finally signed off on a free trade deal with China, years of negotiating on heaps of stuff and lots of compromise, so if you really want to start each one of these from scratch with all the other sides thinking it's time to get more out of it then go for it.
As many have said the main issue with the UK and EU is a reluctance to get involved properly. Hanging back and trying to only pick the fun bits never works.
Not sure if this one is urban myth but it does sum a lot up
When the EU made all fire extinguishers red and put a symbol on them to identify them rather than the UK colour coded system the British delegation kicked off and pointed out that the UK had a much better system. The response from the rest of the committee was that it would have been great to have come along to the start of the process and suggest that then not complain at the end having not taken part in the process at all....
I also get the feeling that if chewkw managed to declare the independent state of chewkw with him as the only resident and government he would still hate the government.
I'm confused by it all, can anyone answer these questions?
1) How much do we pay in exactly and how much is granted back to us?
2) How has being in the EU benefitted British workers?
3) Cameron's 'deal' will only be bad for British workers rights right?
4) How broken is the European parliament exactly, it seems pretty much on it's last legs to me
5) I'm of to bed
1) http://www.statista.com/statistics/316964/net-contributions-to-eu-budget-by-united-kingdom-uk-to-eu-european-union/ 10.8 Billion for 2015/16.
As for what the UK gets here is a summary from 2012
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union
2) British Workers? Maximum working week? Stronger economy, better trade terms, export routes etc. all these things are good for British Workers.
3) No idea
4) Why do you think it's broken?
In. I think it's a good thing both economically (as someone who runs a business which trades internationally) and in keeping the EU balanced in its membership, rather than becoming even more Germany-centric.
3) Cameron's 'deal' will only be bad for British workers rights right?
Why? Its puts a brake [ lets ignore the spin for now] on immigrant.Its says nothign at all about workers rights
What is your exact concern?
4) How broken is the European parliament exactly, it seems pretty much on it's last legs to me
Very little point answering a leading question like that
They are all elected so one massive plus on our system and they use PR so I would argue that is two.
I dont think it is either broken or about to die and I have no idea how anyone could cogently argue the later.
I have given this some thought and I have decide at present I am a tentative yes to stay
The main reason is that I cannot see myself voting the same way as the more vocal anti EU lot. Apparently they are trying to persuade Gove to lead it so two campaigns one led by Farage and one by Gove. I just cannot see me siding with them- the debate on STW has been far more rational and less hate based than the wider debate.
Whilst we're at it, we'd have been much better off IN the euro. Our position would be similar to Germany's. I just sent some time working there, my god it's civilised. And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In
It's a tragic state of affairs when either Cameron or Farage will claim credit for the way I vote. 👿
The EU project needs a lot of reforms & surely the UK has more influence being a member of the EU rather than trying to influence things from outside the EU?
Lots here saying they would vote IN because the Tory government would be worse.
If so. Don't vote conservative next time.
By voting OUT, atleast you are allowing yourself to directly influence who gets to pass powers that affect you. They may not always listen, but laws from the EU are made by people you have no control over.
Let's try to establish a democracy I say ... So OUT.
The Greece affair is the clincher for me - EU leaders (Schultz, Juncker) trying to engineer a coup, ECB acting politically, beyond its remit. There is nothing democratic about the EU, and nothing good for the citizen, as the TTIP will soon demonstrate.
do you think folk ho said that voted Tory
The second point is as true here as there
Lots of lords get to amend and pass laws, re write them and serve in the actual govt
We did not vote for them either
All the arguments against anti democratic EU who we have no say over- its basically not true*- can be applied equally [ as less favourably due to the Lords, the head of state being due to birth etc] to the UK
* The EU has lots of convulted ways of voting for things and some are more democratic than other but I guarantee for every single EU incident I can easily give you a UK counterpart from "unelected bureaucrats" - Ofsted, CPS]
as the TTIP will soon demonstrate.
Given we have aTory givt and they want free trade - its part of thier instance/negotiations- do you really think leaving means we wont have something similar?
Honestly?
I dont like TTIP either but i think its hard to argue the Tories are against it and that leaving the EU means we are saved from such agreements
They may not always listen, but laws from the EU are made by people you have no control over.
Apart from all those MEPs we elect and vote on all the laws !?!!?
I dont like TTIP either but i think its hard to argue the Tories are against it and that leaving the EU means we are saved from such agreements
Point was its another nstance of the EU not being as cuddly as some would have you believe
In
If Rupert Murdoch, the daily mail and the telegraph are so desperate for the UK to leave, then its probably good for the average person for us to be in
its another nstance of the EU not being as cuddly as some would have you believe
Its not different to our what our own parliament would do so I am not sure how it can be used to prove the EU is bad. We seem to agree its as bad as our own.
the EU towards Greece has made me question how much it is in the pocket of global multinationals and banks.
This would be a very strong argument for leaving were it not for the fact that the people wanting us to leave want us to be more in the pocket of corporations and the finance industry. As has been said many times already by others. Farage and the nut-job tories are not campaigning to leave because they think the EU doesn't do enough for the average man in the street. Voting to leave on this basis is an extreme case of turkeys voting for christmas.
And the whole Euro project would be in better shape with us in it.Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd have thought that another economy on the scale of France and Germany being part of the Euro would self-evidently make it more secure and stable. We'll never know though.
We'd have destroyed the whole thing if we'd been involved. We'd have been like a monstorous Greece.
Out, in? Don't care, but I'd be fascinated to see what out looks like.
We'd have been like a monstorous Greece.
Still peddling the ridiculous myth that the UK finances were on a par with Greece? You won the election. Twice. You don't need to bother with that fiction any more 🙂
I didn't stand, or vote...
I'm in, the EU is far from perfect but I haven't seen anything on the out case other than some generic little Englander bigotry and bollocks. No positive vision of what the UK will look like. We owe a lot to the EU for human rights and consumer law for starters, which a tory govt would never have implemented, or allowed to stand if implemented by others.
Oh yes, employment legislation too.
owe a lot to the EU for human rights
Europe owes us a lot for human rights, not the other way around.
