[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

@br then we need to fix that, if someone is prepared to travel a 1000 miles for summer work then its not a hardship to do the same from one part of the UK to another

Good job they come.

So they take low wages plus in work benefits plus child allowance sent home whilst we pay welfare to those without work. Has anyone looked at this ? We don't know and Leave cannot ask the civil service as Cameron forbade ( @mefty 😉 ) it

The whole racist immigration row is a complete red herring. After a Brexit, we want a free trade agreement with the EU, which will certainly - as it does with existing agreements - require free movement of people.

Then I say we reject it. If we do sign such an agreement we will outside the EU be able to say zero benefits fro anyone without a UK passport for 5 (?) years including all in-work benefits. This will mean the people that come will support themselves totally.

meanwhile in lowestoft Borris was greeting VL campaigners

only they forgot to cover up their English Defense League tattoos

[img] [/img]

We are showing our country up in a vile light and right now I'm utterly ashamed to be British.

Yip.

Flag waving nationalism of any hue is always pretty ugly. You would have hoped that by the 21st century we'd have learnt where it tends to lead, and moved on from it

Apparently not

Thirdly I would be shocked if we didn't have to conform to EU migration rules if we wanted a free trade agreement as movement of people is intrinsically linked to an open market.

That's the case for Switzerland, or so I'm told.

I'm sorry - can't let this go anymore - it is referendums not referenda - it is a gerund so the plural means vote on (multiple) things - not multiple votes.

The whole racist immigration row is a complete red herring. After a Brexit, we want a free trade agreement with the EU, which will certainly - as it does with existing agreements - require free movement of people.

Then I say we reject it. If we do sign such an agreement we will outside the EU be able to say zero benefits fro anyone without a UK passport for 5 (?) years including all in-work benefits. This will mean the people that come will support themselves totally.

You really do live in your own stationary orbit don't you Jammers? In step with the equally cloud-cuckoo land leavers, everything you say seems to be coming from some mythical all-powerful position, where the EU is going to be begging us to make a trade agreement, and we'll simply issue our list of demands, and they'll instantly agree, and sign on the line....

[img] [/img]

@molgrips as many immigrants say they are coming to do jobs the Brits won't do not least as the wages are too low. Think about that for a minute.

So employers are paying under minimum wage? They shouldn't. If they are paying minimum wage then they aren't too low as lots of British people ARE working for minimum wage.

Sadly, this referendum will be decided not by enlightened self interests, but misinformed, un-enlightend and provincial attitudes.
...am strongly considering moving myself and my family to France or Germany in the event of a leave vote.

ransos - Member

That's the case for Switzerland, or so I'm told.

...and Norway.

So they take low wages plus in work benefits plus child allowance sent home whilst we pay welfare to those without work. Has anyone looked at this ? We don't know and Leave cannot ask the civil service as Cameron forbade ( @mefty ) it

There isn't a Latin plural for a gerund

I was taking a short cut - as a plural it is a gerundive like arduus (sing.) and ardua (plur.) in the mottos, which follow what they are describing.

I was taking a short cut - as a plural it is a gerundive like arduus (sing.) and ardua (plur.) in the mottos, which follow what they are describing.

I'd be happy to discuss it at a meeting. Put it on the agendum.

meanwhile in lowestoft Borris was greeting VL campaigners

only they forgot to cover up their English Defense League tattoos

Doesn't look like any EDL logo I've seen more like a baby. Could it possibly be the baby's initials. Bad racist baby 🙁

Doesn't look like any EDL logo I've seen

he was questioned by reporters and admitted he was a member once
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-meets-vote-leave-8204574

So they take low wages plus in work benefits plus child allowance sent home whilst we pay welfare to those without work. Has anyone looked at this ?

It's a subsidy we pay to wealthy employers such as Mr Ashley . The employers are the ones who gain from this. Why do we allow employers to pay less than the real living wage? Neither Remain nor Leave will answer that question.

he was questioned by reporters and admitted he was a member once
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-meets-vote-leave-8204574

You never linked to that before but now it clear. Still very strange to put that under a baby.

are a net contributor to the system.

Yes, it gets repeated and repeated, but without the caveat in the report that their calculation was static - I.e. It excluded future costs as those (predominantly young, fit and active) immigrants had kids, got older, retired etc.

You never linked to that before but now it clear. Still very strange to put that under a baby.

Meanwhile, this could be a young Boris.

Yes, it gets repeated and repeated, but without the caveat in the report that their calculation was static - I.e. It excluded future costs as those (predominantly young, fit and active) immigrants had kids, got older, retired etc.

IF they stay that long - ISTR reading that a lot don't.

But assuming they do then as they retire they've paid in a lot over the years, plus their kids will by that point likely be working and paying their way in taxes too and so on. In other words, no different to anyone else born here.

By calling immigration a problem you are calling population growth a problem, aren't you? And there are environmental negatives to increased population sure, but that doesn't matter quite so much where people actually live, within the EU at least.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/re-using-nazi-propaganda-good-for-the-environment-says-farage-20160617109593

It excluded future costs as those (predominantly young, fit and active) immigrants had kids, got older, retired etc.

Do you mean just like the rest of us will do one day? You included..

Would you rather we were all knocked off once we were no longer productive?...

[img] [/img]

This map is useful: [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/ ]EU funding by area[/url]

What is unbelievable is that apparently only 10% of people living in Wales want to remain, whereas this map clearly shows they (along with cornwall) have a massive amount to loose

Do you mean just like the rest of us will do one day? You included

Precisely - which is why a calculation of "net benefit" between 2000 and 2010 or 14 is misleading without the caveat, as it accounts for tax contributions without including the (hard to predict) future liabilities.

Precisely - which is why a calculation of "net benefit" between 2000 and 2010 or 14 is misleading without the caveat, as it accounts for tax contributions without including the (hard to predict) future liabilities.

Which means you'll potentially be a drain as well those pesky immigrants?

No-one has mentioned the CIA's involement in all this - it explains why Obama is keen for us to remain :

3:35 onwards :

[i]@br then we need to fix that, if someone is prepared to travel a 1000 miles for summer work then its not a hardship to do the same from one part of the UK to another[/i]

You just don't understand do you? Have you ever signed on and/or got additional benefits - they don't just turn up tomorrow, nor is an easy thing for them to be back-dated. This is something the UK can fix, itself. It just doesn't. And yet another reason of why I am very fearful of Leave as my experience of dealing with the UK's Governmental bureaucracy means that all I can see is massive cost and complexity if we have Brexit.

You just don't understand do you? Have you ever signed on and/or got additional benefits - they don't just turn up tomorrow, nor is an easy thing for them to be back-dated. This is something the UK can fix, itself. It just doesn't. And yet another reason of why I am very fearful of Leave as my experience of dealing with the UK's Governmental bureaucracy means that all I can see is massive cost and complexity if we have Brexit.

@BR

and this sums up my feelings, all the anti EU comments are almost without exception nothing to do with the EU And everything to do with Westminster, voting leave doesn't actually fix anything!

Out

No been reading this for a while, so I guess youse are still stuck on the same loop. 😆 but anyhow a question spring to mind, what happens if england votes out but the combined votes of a pro eu Scotland and NI tip it towards a Yes vote? What would the English reaction to that be?

@br I have signed on before, after a month or so I stopped as I thought it immoral to claim the money when really I wasn't interested in getting a job. Anyway, I said we should address the problem - I am open to suggestions

What is unbelievable is that apparently only 10% of people living in Wales want to remain, whereas this map clearly shows they (along with cornwall) have a massive amount to loose

@ferrals I really don't understand why this surprises you. It is the poor, unemployed, low or un-skilled who have most to lose from uncontrolled immigration. The polling statistics have clearly shown this group are strongly pro-leave. I know many folk here don't want to read what I post at face value but sometimes it makes sense to hear the arguments from the "other side"

What would the English reaction to that be?

None other than accepting thats how democracy works

By calling immigration a problem you are calling population growth a problem, aren't you? And there are environmental negatives to increased population sure, but that doesn't matter quite so much where people actually live, within the EU at least.

The interesting thing is many developed countries the birth rate is low as parents are worried about whether they can provide for their children and the impact on their carears of extended breaks or only one partner working. So people are making the choice that a smaller family and by extension a relatively smaller nation is better.

Now governments are wrestling with state pension funding and have come to the genius (heavily sarcastic fyi) decsion that miore people is the solution, this of course just makes the future problem worse.

What would the English reaction to that be?
None other than accepting thats how democracy works

For me, the Spectator article summarised the issue very succinctly and why a vote leave is the only sensible option.

Yep, better off alone. Hermits do so well - Its the only way.

flangaj careful. You must follow what Cameron, Osbourne Blair and Brown tell you that you should do.

Architects and proper thinkers of how to manage an economy through soundbites and thousands of deaths and instability globally.

But hey, carry on with your 'farage and bumbling Boris' comments remain crowd.

errr... I'm still watching the debate and floating although clearly erring on the side of remain due to the more balanced reasoning that the remain camp are putting forward..
I also know that I've debated with a lot of STW brexiteers in the past over various issues which has led me to the belief that some of them are not very bright..

That said, I'm taking this voting lark very seriously as it's one of the more important political decisions of my lifetime.. Usually we're voting for which gang of inbred toffs to lead us down the garden path next, but this time we could well be waving goodbye to the safety of having anyone police that toffery..

With all that said, there are some heartily earnest and seemingly bright folk determined that brexit is the solution so please could I appeal to you to help me with a few of the finer points so that I can feel well informed in my decision..

The one I'm stuck on here at the moment is the term 'uncontrolled immigration'

Could you explain to me why you think that will become likely in the event of a remain vote?

The one I'm stuck on here at the moment is the term 'uncontrolled immigration'
Could you explain to me why you think that will become likely in the event of a remain vote?

Yeah, but that's clearly bolleaux, hence the need for clarification

What's the brexit stance on foreign aid too? Is it OK to send 12 billion overseas in foreign aid to some countries but "save" 8bn or so from our eu contributions, or should we pull up the drawbridge and put the full 20 bills into the good old NHS?

Yunki immigration from the EU is totally unrestricted, it has to be. We can only turn someone away if they pose a clear and immediate threat to our security. If we Remain this will only increase as oir economy outperforms stagnating Europe and the EU expands further (some of the candidate countries have average annual earnings of £7.5pa)

@thepurist I am firmly in favour of the foreign aid budget, as you know I am equally firmly vote Leave. As you probably know UKIP think the foreign aid budget is excessive, for example they think its wrong we give £500m to India a country with nuclear weapons, a space programm and some of the worlds richest people.

who have most to lose from uncontrolled immigration.

Yunki immigration from the EU is totally unrestricted, it has to be. We can only turn someone away if they pose a clear and immediate threat to our security.

and the EU expands further (some of the candidate countries have average annual earnings of £7.5pa)

What? Like DPRK?

Junky take that razor sharp analysis to Wales as its clearly required, they are clearly not thinking right

I doubt that.

What choice do we have, unilaterally call an independence referendum 😉 Realistically the only way out will be a highly Eurosceptic majority government perhaps post Greek default / full blown eurozone crises

Yunki, enjoy Jambas non-sequiter then ignore as not only do the two sentences contradict each other, but they are both wrong.

1. Immigration from the EU is not totally unrestricted. That is simply a lie that the BS team continue to attempt to fool people with.

2. At the basic level, anyonewho wants to enter the UK still needs to present a passport for security checks by a UK Border Force official. The simple bit.

3. On top of this UK authorities can refuse entry to any EU citizen on public policy, public health or public security grounds.

Immigration from the EU is neither uncontrolled nor unrestricted. It's very simple. Ignore the xenophobic and blatant lies for Camp BS

TMH They have to represent an immediate threat, we deport beggars and they can turn round and come back again. Anyway as above feel free to accompany Junky to Wales or The Potteries to make that point

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/newspaper-deletes-mention-of-organisation-linked-to-brexit-leaders-in-report-on-jo-coxs-killer/

flangaj careful. You must follow what Cameron, Osbourne Blair and Brown tell you that you should do.

Architects and proper thinkers of how to manage an economy through soundbites and thousands of deaths and instability globally.

But hey, carry on with your 'farage and bumbling Boris' comments remain crowd.

I'm confused now.

Nope. And sorry, yes I have the documentation on the next page on the iPad . I am not sure whether you don't know the facts/can't be bothered to check or whether you are just following "team orders". Either way, your response to Yunki is incorrect. Pure and simple.

EU immigration is LESS than 50% of the total. If a points based system is what Brexiters want, this could be implemented anytime do deal with immigration for those coming to the UK from outwith the EU.

1. Immigration from the EU is not totally unrestricted. That is simply a lie that the BS team continue to attempt to fool people with.

2. At the basic level, anyonewho wants to enter the UK still needs to present a passport for security checks by a UK Border Force official. The simple bit.

3. On top of this UK authorities can refuse entry to any EU citizen on public policy, public health or public security

A simple question I have for the remain camp. Let's just say that on Monday 5 million people arrived in England waving their EU passports and wanting to reside in the UK. Could we currently whilst a member of the EU say sorry you cannot come here to stay?

A simple question I have for the remain camp. Let's just say that on Monday 5 million people arrived in England waving their EU passports and wanting to reside in the UK. Could we currently whilst a member of the EU say sorry you cannot come here to stay?

ooohh is that happening? or is it just the kind of nightmare fantasy that keeps bexiters living their lives in desperate fear? 🙄

I reckon Europe would crap itself more if 5 million England football fans got on the ferries on Monday

A simple question I have for the remain camp. Let's just say that on Monday 5 million people arrived in England waving their EU passports and wanting to reside in the UK. Could we currently whilst a member of the EU say sorry you cannot come here to stay?

Can I answer that with another couple of questions? If 5,000,000 EU citizens turned up in England on Monday and we were not in the EU what would you do about it?
Also if current percentages are kept the same, what would you say to the 5,500,000 non EU passport holders that turn up on Tuesday?

immigration is LESS than 50% of the total. If a points based system is what Brexiters want, this could be implemented anytime do deal with immigration for those coming to the UK from outwith the EU.

Talk about missing the point. So you implement a points based system for non eu migrants and have to deny those with skills the uk needs just to balance the books, because you cannot deny the unskilled ones coming from the eu.

I despair when vote remain have the front to challenge out on controlling immigration. You just make yourselves look stupid.

I dedpair

What's the brexit stance on foreign aid too? Is it OK to send 12 billion overseas in foreign aid to some countries but "save" 8bn or so from our eu contributions, or should we pull up the drawbridge and put the full 20 bills into the good old NHS?

for example they think its wrong we give £500m to India

ooohh is that happening? or is it just the kind of nightmare fantasy that keedon'exiters living their lives in desperate fear? 

you haven't answered my question. Could we deny them entry?

In fact, I'll spare you the time as you too know the answer is no we can't. So why don't you liberal lefty lot just own up to it. Vote remain, actually do not care about immigration and i wish they would front up to the electorate and be truthful!

Im sure we could, for a start theyd probably starve to death before they got through passport control

its just such a childish, ridiculous question Im having trouble rustling up the will to answer it

but hey apparently remainers look stupid 😳

Yes and no

EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.218 In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.219 Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”220 and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.221

It would be a money-spinner for lawyers!!!

Edit for edit: better to use the time to understand rather than save it and live in ignorance. Remain understand immigration and it's context, they don't need to hide behind xenophobic lies. It's very simple.

Why would we deny them entry. They would be spending money as tourists. Come to see the queen I expect.

its just such a childish, ridiculous question Im having trouble rustling up the will to answer it

Are you a politician?

It's a simple hypothetical question. Could the uk deny entry?

Yes.

flanagaj. Eastern Europeans do not just take low paid jobs. There are a lot of doctors and nurses from the EU. I work with 4 colleagues from Poland within engineering. There are about 180,000 immigrants per annum from EU and 190,000 from outwith. I feel there may be enough room for skilled people from all over the World without leaving the EU. Reducing immigration to a few tens of thousands will massively reduce the opportunities for skilled people to come here whether they come from Poland or Punjab.
I know a few Brexiters, and I must say I have never felt they seem to have the best interests of a qualified doctor from Bangalore close to their heart.

Junky take that razor sharp analysis to Wales as its clearly required, they are clearly not thinking right

Anyway as above feel free to accompany Junky to Wales or The Potteries to make that point

Interesting new tactic.

siiiighhhh

well according to thm's regulations up there, yes we could

dont worry you are safe from the imaginary hordes!

Eastern Europeans do not just take low paid jobs

Yep, 5% of our company are Polish, although 60% of our SW team are now based in India.....

dont worry you are safe from the imaginary hordes!

Argh thanks. I'll sleep soundly.

tbf it must be scary under the bridge 😉

Are you sure?

You seem to have lots of nasty myths floating around in your mind, if I believed half of the stuff, I would be awake all night 😉

Good job that all you need to do is open your eyes!

My wife was arguing with someone on fb about the EU, turns out he didn't actually know that it is a democratic institution and he has a Euro MP...

AH i see you have given up on appeals to authority or accepting you are wrong even though your own post showed it and are simply pointing out other folk have it wrong to
Interesting new tactic.

God, I despair. Of course there are skilled migrants from the eu that the UK needs, just as much there are skilled migrants from outside the eu we need. But why do you want to be shackled with unskilled and uncontrolled migration?

We're not.

Why do you persist with this made up stuff? At what point does it become embarrassing?

Are you sure?

You seem to have lots of nasty myths floating around in your mind, if I believed half of the stuff, I would be awake all night 

Good job that all you need to do is open your eyes!

If you are referring to my question regarding immigration, please send me evidence in relation to your theory regarding controlling eu migration. By the way, I'm not interested in scenarios which require lengthy legal processes with the eu courts to deny entry. I am asking whether uk border force staff can deny entry to eu citizens based on immigration numbers?

. But why do you want to be shackled with unskilled and uncontrolled migration?

Because the pros of the 'unskilled and uncontrolled' immigration outweigh the cons of not having i?

As for your other questions, it's hardy worth an answer. It seems to be a logical fallacy, the name of which I can't remember.

I wasn't.

But ignore scenarios and legalise - lets go back to simple precedent.

Remind what DID happen the last time 5 million people turned up at the UK borders.

I am hoping to display that the fact that less than half of our migrants come from the EU shows that we are not shackled by them.

Surely on a basic level, skilled jobs in the UK are being done by skilled people? Open heart surgery in the UK is not being performed by inadequate Bulgarian cleaners whilst an A* Indian surgeon angrily stamps his feet at passport control.

So who will do the unskilled work in the absence of the immigrants. Certainly not the British unskilled workers. They don't want to or can't stick the work these people do, stuff like field work harvesting vegetables or sweeping up sawdust in the sawmills. Indeed, I was talking to the manager at the local sawmills and he tells me that when the poles first came over they worked like mad, did the work of 2 UK workers. 15 years down the line and they have to use Romanians to do the same jobs now as the Poles aren't interested in the mundane manual work any longer. Begs the question, what happens one day in the (not so distant) future when there is no-one willing to do the most shit jobs. They will still need doing. Would you spend all day every day sweeping sawdust in the heat, dust and noise of a sawmill?

what happens one day in the (not so distant) future when there is no-one willing to do the most shit jobs

Robots hooked up to deep AI. Seriously, it's coming sooner than you think.

I hope you feel guilty welshfarmer, because each of the workers separating potatoes and sweeping sawdust has prevented a triple heart bypass operation from taken place under the watchful eye of a highly qualified Indian doctor!!

it was not aimed at you the quotes are jambys