[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

duckman
I was wondering if you could enlighten a simple teuchter from the benighted glen. Why was a vote to leave apparently based on small minded nationalism on our part,yet a vote to leave the EU isn't?

jamba, from 8 pages ago.

18bn (£346m per week) is the amount before the rebate
13bn (£250m per week) is the amount after the rebate
8.5bn (£163 m per week) is what gets spent in Europe out of the UK contribution.
4.5bn (£86m per week)is what gets spent in the UK out of the UK contribution

This isn't difficult.

I don't know why you are still arguing about it.

C'mon be serious - there is a specific reason why the ONS account calcuate this specific gross figures. But it is clear - they say so themselves - that not only should this not be considers a gross figure for our cost of membership, but also that we do not spend his figure as you guys make out. IT IS A LIE and you know it. The rebate is pre-payment, so it is a complete lie that we spend £350m AND that this is a sum of money that we could spend on the NHS. Even if that was the case, to consider costs in isolation of benefits is nonsensical and deceitful.

For the OUT campaign continue to use this as the centre point of the campaign is nothing short of disgraceful.

To centre on a BLATANT lie shows the vacuum at the centre of the OUT economic argument.

C'mon Russ put us out of our misery, we are on tenterhooks now.....

Tbh I've better things to do than get into a internet argument.

But to label stupid people racist is pretty shocking and by saying "most likely" doesn't make it any better.
I generally find that racists are racists and stupid people are stupid.
I'm just a bit uneasy about labelling a planet full of unintelligent people racists because there a bit thick?
On that note I'm out, out of this thread and out on the 23rd.

So what are your out reasons Russ?

To avoid ambiguity, from this week's select committee report. This WHOLE section was in bold for emphasis in the actual report

32.At the heart of Vote Leave’s presentation of its case is the claim that, on leaving the EU, the UK Government would receive a windfall of £350m per week, available to be spent in other ways, “like the NHS and schools”. [b]This, and the other figures used by Vote Leave for the UK’s EU budget contributions (£150bn ‘contributed’ in the past decade, and £511bn since joining) are highly misleading to the electorate for a number of reasons.[/b]

33.First, Vote Leave’s £350m figure does not account for the budget rebate, which amounts to £85m per week. [b]Leaving the EU could not make this money available to spend on schools and hospitals because it is not ‘sent’ to Brussels in the first place. The rebate does not leave the UK or cross the exchanges.[/b] This is repeated in other ways. A 'counter' is prominently displayed on Vote Leave’s website. This purports to show that the UK has historically contributed £511bn to the EU since joining in 1973 and excludes the rebate. The UK rebate is indeed controversial in other Member States. It may be raised in future negotiations over the EU’s financial framework. However, it can only be changed with the UK Government’s consent, as happened in the Government led by Tony Blair.

34.Secondly, the extent to which money that the UK receives from the EU budget (a further £88m per week to the public sector and £79m per week to the private sector and non-governmental organisations) would be available for spending on other priorities, would depend on the policy choices of the democratically-elected Government of the day. Vote Leave has stated that “There will [ … ] be financial protection for all groups that now get money from Brussels”. If that policy were implemented, [b]the money available to fund other priorities after Brexit, such as schools and hospitals, would be much lower, [/b]and probably closer to the UK’s net contribution of £110 million per week than it is to £350 million. This would be true even if, as has been widely argued, efficiencies could be made in the way that money the UK currently receives from the EU budget is spent.

35.Finally, it is not impossible that the UK may continue to make contributions to the EU budget after Brexit, either on a transitional or permanent basis, in return for continued access to parts of the single market, or because it considers mutual co-operation in certain areas, such as science research, to be desirable. This too would reduce the supposed fiscal windfall arising from leaving the EU.

36.Vote Leave has said that £350m a week is “the core number”, and that it is using the number “again and again”.[b] It is very unfortunate that they have chosen to place this figure at the heart of their campaign. This has been done in the face of overwhelming evidence, including that of the Chair of the UK Statistics Authority, demonstrating that it is misleading. [/b]Without qualification this is unavoidable. Brexit will not result in a £350m per week fiscal windfall to the Exchequer as a consequence of ending the UK’s contributions to the EU budget. Despite having been presented with the evidence contradicting this claim, Vote Leave has subsequently placed the £350m figure on its campaign bus, and on much of its recent campaign literature. The public should discount this claim. Vote Leave’s persistence with it is deeply problematic. It sits very awkwardly with its promises to the Electoral Commission to work in a spirit that reflects its “very significant responsibility” and the “gravity of the choice facing the British people”.

37. Claims about the UK’s contributions to the EU budget should be set in context; the UK’s gross contribution, after application of the rebate, accounts for less than 2 per cent of public sector spends each year, [b]and is equivalent to less than 1 per cent of the UK’s economic output.[/b] If leaving the EU has a substantial positive or negative effect on the economy as a whole–as many advocates of leaving or staying believe it will–the consequent impact on the public finances is likely to be far more significant than the size of any saving from the EU’s budget contributions. Nonetheless, the net saving would be a significant reduction in public expenditure in the context of the current austerity programme.

Time to stop lying

@ernie did you read my post, London is hugely Labour biased so for Boris to overturn that shows his popularity

Let's see what "London is hugely Labour biased" actually means.

London Assembly Elections 2000 : Tories = 9 seats, Labour = 9 seats

London Assembly Elections 2004 : Tories = 9 seats, Labour = 7 seats

London Assembly Elections 2008 : Tories = 11 seats, Labour = 8 seats

London Assembly Elections 2012 : Tories = 9 seats, Labour = 12 seats

London Assembly Elections 2016 : Tories = 8 seats, Labour = 12 seats

So in most of the London Assembly Elections Labour either got as many seats or less seats than the Tories, [i]that's[/i] what you mean by "hugely Labour biased".

In other words the Tories are always in with a chance in London (thanks to the leafy suburbs).

Therefore the Tories winning a London mayoral contest with 3.06% more votes than Labour is no great achievement, however much spin you might want to put on it.

Boris Johnson is not 'fabulously popular' with Londoners.

Thm I think know we know know that lot have their own agenda and are just part of the establishment and the fake moon landings, of course they would say that (but hey it makes you think though)

This is from the ONS

Some commentators have previously quoted figures calculated from table 9.2 of the Pink Book. In an official letter written by the Deputy National Statistician for Economic Statistics, Jonathan Athow it is stated that “The information set down in table 9.2 of the Pink Book on the current account position does not give a full picture of the UK’s position with respect to  the EU . . .[b] We would therefore discourage users from using the figures in table 9.2 as a reflection of the UK’s contribution to the EU.”[/b]

Athgray member

Here too. Three posts and three insults this morning, Duckman. What beast bit you?

@DrJ Touche - Kahn and Khan. Joking aisde as much as I respect Lagrand, DSK is a perfect example of what a political organisation the IMF is.

Yes - you, me, and Varoufakis are on the same page there!

Nail on head in today's Grauniad

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/30/eu-referendum-neoliberal-irvine-welsh

"whether you back red or black in the tawdry, crumbling casino of neoliberalism, and whatever the slimy croupiers of the mainstream media urge, it’s the house that invariably wins"

I don't know why you are still arguing about it.

Because it's STW. I myself posted rhe £350 vs £250 vs £150 numbers and said I personally would have used the £250 number. As I also said numerous times it sdifficuot to oin diwn thencontribution as it moves around (and has been steadily increasing) and the rebate can be withdrawn as can the EU grants paying us our own money back. I can see why Leave persost with the £350 and its justifiable, also given the ludicrous bs and scaremongering from Remain why try and "play fair" when the other side is doing anything but.

Thanks for that @tmh I had forgotten Blair gave away part of the rebate

Yep Junky every country in the world (outside the EU) gives preferential treatment and righrs to its own citizens. The reason the EU is the exception is its a project to creat a United States of Europe. I want as "racist" an immigration policy as the US, Canada and Australia, South Africa, China, India etc etc

I see no one has commented on Blair's statement that EU migrants come to take the low paid jobs British citizens won't do

Ok Jambas you may have conceded a lower figure and that the contribution represents a relatively small % of GDP ie the claim is a pretty fatuous argument, however my questions relate to the people that you represent - they continue to lie about the cost of membership and that the money could be used for other purposes. As ^ this goes against promises made to the Electoral Commision and is nothing short of a disgrace

The other side argument is irrelevant, This is the cornerstone of the economic argument (sic) of your side - it is the first thing you see on the website (actually now relegated behind nasty foreigner stuff) and blazoned across the battlebus. There is no hiding - its blatant lying and anyone involved should feel the collective shame of a deceitful campaign.

Driving back from London on Saturday night and there are further lies about Turkey being IN Europe. There is no end to the depths that OUTers will scrape to.

C'mon Russ, we are still wondering....

I see no one has commented on Blair's statement that EU migrants come to take the low paid jobs British citizens won't do

What's to say? If correct, then what is the issue?

C'mon Russ, we are still wondering....

Read my first post 😉

jambalaya - Member

I see no one has commented on Blair's statement that EU migrants come to take the low paid jobs British citizens won't do

Really?
I've never posted anything thing on this thread as its a discussion that will always have the for and against and both will blindly argue their point.
I'm 100% out and I'm not stupid or racist.

why try and "play fair" when the other side is doing anything but.

ps the 250 number is still the wrong one to use, I guess you'll get there after another 50 pages! 😆

So where is it in there Russ?

It's the both will blindly argue their point bit.
What ever reason I give, someone will post why I'm wrong and they are right.
Politics and religion are a non starter in my book.

OK, so not blindly saying your wrong etc. but you don't want to share the reasons not that we missed them 😉 A lot of posters have picked up on the reasons given by leavers as they are based on lies/exaggerations like most of the exit campaign. Some of those things are worth pointing out. I hope you make your mind up based on the facts.

I've finally reached a decision! I'm voting out.

Main reason is that the current system and allegiances are clearly not working, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. If this is what we want to continue, then vote stay.

However, I believe we need to challenge the establishment and the safety of the status quo, because if we remain, we're going to be in for at least another 25 years of delusional government and corporate leadership, which on a social platform, just isn't working.

Furthermore, the scaremongering of the remain camp is now truly pissing me off and if they get the win, then it will just unleash even greater amounts of propaganda bullshit from the ruling minority.

Bollox to all the various hypothesising as to what will or might or might not happen, seemingly no one knows and if they do, then they are not telling us clearly.

It's time to lose our chains, unshackle ourselves from the constraints of tired and lethargic government and shake things up a bit. Unless you're happy to exist in a tired and lethargic way, in which case, vote for the same shit.

so when are you marching on westminster, slackalice? 😆

It's time to lose our chains, unshackle ourselves from the constraints of tired and lethargic government and shake things up a bit.

How's that been working out so far? We have control over the vast majority of issues. Have we made a great job of dealing with them? Or have we just sat back on the sofa with a cup of tea and an episode of Strictly?

It's absolute self delusion to imagine that Brexit will herald in a new dawn of national rebuilding and integrity. It won't. It will be the same, only worse.

Best "out" post on the thread, Slackalice. Worthy of Rudi Dutschke.

slackalice - Member

Main reason is that the current system and allegiances are clearly not working, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. If this is what we want to continue, then vote stay.

However, I believe we need to challenge the establishment and the safety of the status quo, because if we remain, we're going to be in for at least another 25 years of delusional government and corporate leadership, which on a social platform, just isn't working.

While I totally agree with this, I don't see that an Out vote helps. I suspect it might well make it worse.

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Right on Alice

I see no one has commented on Blair's statement that EU migrants come to take the low paid jobs British citizens won't do

This 100%, they do: My mate farms and grows daffs. They are time sensitive and his experience is that if he wants them out and in a shop sooner then it is pointless to rely on local workers. He feels that too many local people think it is beneath them.

Nice one Alice, I don't agree but a very constructive argument that didn't mention immigrants or £350m bollocks.

Slackalice - Well done. You have submitted the best post of this whole thread.
Dr. J - We have no control over TTIP under the EU and all the GM food associated with it. That's ok with you though.

under the EU and all the GM food associated with it. That's ok with you though

Thanks Edukator, best compliment I've had for a while 😀

@ seosamh - as soon as I've had a cup of tea and a g or two of south America's finest 😉

@Dr J - how do you know? I'll go all religion thread-esque and ask you to prove your assertions 😉

Only a fool will keep banging their head against a wall and expect a different outcome ( or whatever the exact quote is, but the essence remains the same). Change is needed and whilst I agree that leaving the federal states of Europe might not be [i]the[/i] answer, at least by trying something different, we can start to trying to find out what will work.

I haven't read too much of this thread, so apologies if this article has already been posted, but I found it offering an interesting opinion:

[url= http://www.richardheller.co.uk/2016/05/journalism/remain-from-those-wonderful-folks-who-brought-you-the-iraq-war/ ]Richard Heller - From those wonderful folks who brought you the Iraq war[/url]

Good post slackalice. Now sit back and await the disapproving crowd to jump in.

duckman
Obviously you would,as you post bollocks sorry; "opinion" such gems such as your Scottish white van man to suggest that 45% of the population voted out of anti-English sentiment. Factually incorrect,and statistically unsupported,which will be further reinforced by the % of the remain vote up here, but hey;it's your opinion. The point I was making was that some of the same people accusing Scots who voted yes of nationalism at best ( Boris) seem now to embraced the argument the Nats used. Uncaring dominant neighbour,lack of control over our own fate,too much meddling etc. Amazing( not really) And I have to say that Boris and a Brexit will be a fantastic advert of independence. So tempting!

I said no such thing about 45% percent of Scots being like white van van . I am sure I spoke of a not insignificant minority.

That post of yours is gem. It shows how similar your viewpoint is to Boris', just a different focal point for your nationalism. At least I frown on both. Who's nationalism is best duckman?

As Salmond has said and you point out I reckon a Brexit will quite reasonably bring on calls for a second indy vote.

Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place. If it happens I might spoil my vote by writing the lyrics to the chorus of Stealers Wheels greatest hit.

Main reason is that the current system and allegiances are clearly not working, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. If this is what we want to continue, then vote stay.

So how exactly does voting out change the outcomes that you dislike?

Income inequality is not confined to the EU or even the developed world.

As NW suggests, be careful what you wish for....

@Dr J - how do you know? I'll go all religion thread-esque and ask you to prove your assertions

Seems to me that you are the one making dramatic assertions about how wonderful life will be once we cast off the yoke of Brussels and rely on the Bullingdon Club for our saviours.

The war criminal Tony Blair wants us to remain. He has feathered his nest very nicely with an EU position that has led to him being worth 20-odd million pounds. Pass the champers brother Tony !

Out of interest, when did we join a federated states of Europe?

I think I might change bikes, it will probably lead to curing cancer

We have no control over TTIP

The EU rubber stamp on Tony Blair's appointment as Middle East Peace Envoy brought shame on Brussels. A more partial candidate would have been hard to find - I started a thread about his hat beacause his bias was so obvious. [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/blundering-tony-blair-quits-as-middle-east-peace-envoy-only-israel-will-miss-him-10279906.html ]Eight years of shame.[/url]

So let me get this right.... the fearless leader who will guide us to the nirvana of a more just and equal society, and free us from our capitalist oppressors is.....

Boris Johnson?

Binners, No, that's you putting spin on what was said. 🙂

binners - Member

So let me get this right.... the fearless leader who will lead us into the nirvana of a more just and equal society, and free us from our capitalist oppressors is.....

Boris Johnson?

Risky one there binners, considering you're currently walking hand in hand with a pig ****er. 😉

The EU takes decisions one step further from the voter, which I don't like.
I do like democracy, unlike your president, Juncker.
Almost surprised the hive haven't made more of it.