[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

How childish to pretend that you meant something different - it's sort of thing that you might expect from a 13 year old. I don't think he's 13

Anon 😉

Well I'm thick anyhow so that's hardly surprising THM. However I think that copying and pasting what someone says and then giving your own take on something doesn't really constitute pretending they meant something else.

br asked how many of the poor are poor because they're thick. I said that the poor are poor because they are thick and really wealthy people are incredibly intelligent.

I still can't see what the problem is apart from perhaps not agreeing with me.

E2:E4 😉

Are you two secretly engaging in chess?

I don't know what THM is on about. I didn't like to ask in case it made me look stupid.

Well, stupider than I am.

Yes, but those are just established facts and thus can be completely discounted in jambaland as being completely and utterly incorrect.

I am all for immigration @footflaps, controlled immigration. It can only be better if you select people based on skills.

[img] [/img]

Mekel is very keen for Britain to remain in the EU, of all members Germany has the most to loose from us leaving

A points based system is to clumsy for modern labour markets, so creating a geographic pool in which movement is unrestricted makes sense.

That Paul Sagoo quote is one to ponder. If someone turns up with a decent points score do we kick out someone "born and bred" in the UK with a very low score as it would be unfair to give them special consideration due to their geographical place of birth? One in one out. No net immigration AND we get skilled workers. Surely the out campaign can get behind that.

Points based system allows us tweak the requirements based on what we need. Australia is a great example, they don't need executives or PhDs, they have been targetting tradesmen. Add to that its regional, they need immigrants into Western Australia so thats the focus, getting a visa for say Sydney is very difficult

will we also imprison asylum seekers on detention centre islands like the australians do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Centre

This is what Jeremy Corbyn had to say about the EU when he was campaigning to become leader of the Labour Party

[url=

link[/url]

If someone turns up with a decent points score do we kick out someone "born and bred" in the UK with a very low score as it would be unfair to give them special consideration due to their geographical place of birth?

it would be good if we could ship those football fans somewhere...

Points based system allows us tweak the requirements based on what we need.

On what you think we need.

What happens when what we need is unskilled fruit pickers or abbatoir workers (like we do now)? Then we'd have to let people in with no skills. Lolz!

From what I've read, the migrants seem to be fitting in fairly well with the economy.. which would tend to support the idea that people migrate to where they're needed - which is the point of free labour movement isn't it?

@jambayla...Australia is shockingly racist. It has forced the Aborigine's into isolation and they are now living in squalid, inhumane conditions, and suffering from unnecessary disease only miles from tourist destinations...they turn away boats of immigrants and allow them to drown at sea because of it....imo Australia is not a country to be aspiring towards...

Points based system allows us tweak the requirements based on what we need. Australia is a great example, they don't need executives or PhDs, they have been targetting tradesmen. Add to that its regional, they need immigrants into Western Australia so thats the focus, getting a visa for say Sydney is very difficult

This is the same Australia that is forecast to have a 2.3 million shortfall in labour by 2030 right?

Shining beacon etc etc etc

I kind of think this thread should be locked for 24 hrs...?

What a mess, what a miserable angry mess, what a miserable angry hateful mess. I've just watched the news and I'm ashamed of half of what I am. Hooligans in Lille, Brexit xenophobia, Jo Cox dead. I'm ashamed. 🙁

I'll leave my keyboard now my tears might break it.

Why. I decided not say this on the other thread, but why the **** is it okay to discuss all sorts of theories when 50 people get shot and killed in the States by a Muslim - but if a white guy kills one person....we have to show some respect. It's a form of shutting down uneasy criticism.

What a mess, what a miserable angry mess, what a miserable angry hateful mess. I've just watched the news and I'm ashamed of half of what I am. Hooligans in Lille, Brexit xenophobia, Jo Cox dead. I'm ashamed.

I'll leave my keyboard now my tears might break it.

+1

It has isolated the Aborigine's and they are living in squalid, inhumane conditions, and suffering from unnecessary disease only miles from tourist destinations...

Yeah but how many points have they got ?

"Points Mean Prizes"

[img] [/img]

They've got to play their cards right.

Edukator - cannot argue with that. What a complete load of arse this all is

Why. I decided not say this on the other thread, but why the **** is it okay to discuss all sorts of theories when 50 people get shot and killed in the States by a Muslim - but if a white guy kills one person....we have to show some respect. It's a form of shutting down uneasy criticism.

Because it's different when it's someone you know. Because it's different when it happens in your town. Because it's different when it happens in the next street to yours.

Because it's different when it happens to someone you can identify with. And when you can identify with their friends and family.

All perfectly normal and acceptable human emotions.

If we mourned the death of everyone throughout the world in the same way as we mourn the death of those closer to us/home we would never be able to get on with our lives.

because its different when they are white is the main one though

Brexit xenophobia. Sorry that insults me. I'm out. I don't do broad sweeping insults

If you are going down that road then surely it would be because they were gay.

Sorry but it's a crock of shit. The main reason is a above, its relatable, why do you think people can largely ignore the refugee crisis until that poor little boy got pictured on the beach.

because its different when they are white is the main one though

I doubt that had Jo Cox been black it would have made much difference to people's reactions.

The main point is that she was British, lots of British people knew her, and it happened on a British street.

You don't have to be a racist monster to be shocked over the murder of someone you knew (or knew of) or that happened on your doorstep, so to speak.

I would question the empathy of someone who was as emotionally detached from a local murder as they were to a murder which occurred thousands of miles away.

its relatable.

Indeed, and people are already tentatively relating it to the heat and fury of the referendum debate

@jambayla...Australia is shockingly racist. It has forced the Aborigine's into isolation and they are now living in squalid, inhumane conditions, and suffering from unnecessary disease only miles from tourist destinations...they turn away boats of immigrants and allow them to drown at sea because of it....imo Australia is not a country to be aspiring towards...

Very much like how Israel treats Palestinians, which is probably why Jambalaya is such a fan of it.

Rkk01 - i suspect it has crossed a lot of people's minds. I hope beyond everything that it doesn't have anything to do with the referendum. However if it does - all sides should hang their heads in shame and think about how the rest of the debate should continue.
Nothing like this is worth a life whoever it is

More likely to just be someone with metal health issues. It's not the first time an MP has been attacked in their surgery and won't be the last.

I doubt that had Jo Cox been black it would have made much difference to people's reactions

IN the orlando shooting some were discussing Islam and terrorism immediately before we even knew the body count or had any information but this time its much more solemn. I thought that was Toms point - in so much as tom has points 😉

I agree we feel things nearer to home more than things farther away.

Ch4 News were cautiously exploring whether a possible political motive 🙁

Undoudtedly a nutter (not a sane thing to do), but the [i]reported[/i] "put Britain First" shout has chilling implications, if verified

More likely to just be someone with metal health issues

Yeah, it's much more comforting to say it was the result of a mental illness:

"well, they were clearly crazy: no sane person would do such a thing"

Actually, sane people do do these things, but to call them sane would be to admit the reality of what people are capable of and the reasons that led them to the act.

I'm not saying the attacker didn't have mental issues, I'm just saying we shouldn't use that as an excuse to turn a blind eye to any possible other causes.

I don't think it's an excuse, just an explanation for what appears to be a senseless act (although it probably did make sense to the killer, just he had a rather warped sense of perspective).

A spokesperson for Getty Images confirmed that the picture in the campaign ad had been licensed from the agency and was taken in Slovenia in 2015 by staff photographer Jeff Mitchell. It depicts people who have just crossed the Croatian-Slovenian border.

So the UKIP poster used an actual photograph. It wasn't staged or edited or photoshopped. So any connection between it and a Nazi poster is co-incidental.

In other new the (left wing) French government have prevented a convoy of 250 aid trucks due to leave the UK for Calais. Now the organisers (inc Diane Abbott) had gotten very poitical planning on leaving from Whitehall and inviting refugee groups from across Europe to stage a demonstration at the camp. The French had no interest in that.

I kind of think this thread should be locked for 24 hrs...?

Having seen this I agree. Nothing more from me,

Mods - pls lock this thread to follow the other EU campaign also halting - out of respect
Rip Jo - hate will never win.

Yeah, it's much more comforting to say it was the result of a mental illness

To fair the person arrested in connection with Jo Cox's murder does apparently have a long history of mental illness, so it's natural to assume that it played a part, if he is indeed the murderer.

The arrested man has even previously talked to a local journalist about his mental illness :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

And a white supremacist...?

The club describes the magazine’s editorial stance as being against “multi-cultural societies” and “expansionist Islam”. A blog post attributed to the group, dated January 2006, described Mair as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S. A. Patriot.”

So the UKIP poster used an actual photograph. It wasn't staged or edited or photoshopped. So any connection between it and a Nazi poster is co-incidental.

I honestly can't understand how somebody with a shred of empathy can look at that poster and not think "hang on a minute... are we sure this is the direction we want society to go?"

That Farage poster is disgraceful.

The arrested man has even previously talked to a local journalist about his mental illness

molgrips - Member
That Farage poster is disgraceful.

The entire debate has descended into using tragedy to further the careers and egos of narcissists

The BBC & Guardian have interviews with 2 seperate people saying jo cox's killer shout 'britain first'
The Leave campaign claimed they had nothing to do with neonazis manning their stalls a few miles away, yet they did nothing to counter the message being put out in their name
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/insider/something-very-unpleasant-attaches-to-vote-leave-campaign-4891

even toynbee was able to point out that the vitriol raked up by the out campaign would stir up hatreds it couldnt control
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right

what galls me is that Jo Cox seemed to be a genuine conviction politician, while farige, johnson etc just shameless opportunists whos one and only concern was furthering their careers

Those links pre-date today's tragedy.

Every time I pause to consider the Brexit argument I keep coming back to the horror story that is the Brexit Dream Team..

Boris..

Farage..

IDS..

Gove..

(Lets not forget Galloway)

Seriously, you'd have be section-able to want ANY of those clowns near Government......IMHO of course!

Those links pre-date today's tragedy

My point exactly, there's been a horrible inevitability that this debate would turn poisonous.

Gobshite Hasbeen, Ken Livingston mentions Hitler, the press are falling over themselves to have him by the balls.
Half the Tory party splits of to start a national xenophobia party , the press Barons have a hard on for it, keep pumping those flames, organise a national referendum on the matter blowing it up even more and it all goes to shit

Even if it had nothing to do with Jo Cox's murder because we've failed to have an honest discussion about Europe and immigration we've still just made out country that much more insular and bigoted

Half the Tory party splits of to start a national xenophobia party

Sorry to be a bore and mention 'facts' but UKIP was founded by a former member of the Liberal Party,
to oppose the Maastricht Treaty. It wasn't even right-wing.

It was however later hijacked by fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists, as David Cameron put it.
Mostly former members of his own party of course.

There are concerns about immigration across the whole of Europe and beyond. Its a key issue of our age as there is more and more movement of people globally because the gap between rich countries and poor countries is widening. These are genuine concerns by normal people around a whole range of potential impacts of immigration, and not concerns about the colour of peoples skin. So those branding everyone who dares to raise the issue of immigration or question it as racists are just exposing the fact that it is they who are small minded, undemocratic and pretty arrogant., People who lower themselves to these tactics that have caused more damage to the democratic process over the past couple of decades causing vast swathes of people to be scared to open their mouths and speak their minds. Suppression of free speech - straight out of the first chapter of the Facist Dictator's textbook. Your views are not better than theirs. Your views are not more correct than theirs, they are just your views and you are just one of 6Bn people in this world all with their own personal views - most of which will probably be different to yours.

Linking Jo's terrible murder to this campaign is just going after the symptom not the cause. This guy was going to murder at some point anyway. It just happened to be Jo and possibly using the EU referendum issue as his twisted excuse/justification. If it wasn't that, he might have murdered a shop keeper over the fact Curly Wurly's have got smaller over the last 30 years or something else - it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, he was going to kill someone anyway.

Interesting piece in the Guardian today

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/eu-referendum-battle-press-versus-democracy?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email ]Press vs Democracy[/url]

"The Forger's Gazette" - not heard that before, priceless!

Didn't know that The Daily Mail supported Hitler and Mussolini either - truly odious

- it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, he was going to kill someone anyway.

There are concerns about immigration across the whole of Europe and beyond

Indeed it's a shame that project fear has chosen to focus on terrifying criminals, coming from Turkey, despite knowing Turkey will never meet the requirements to join the EU, use emotive Nazi propaganda style images of refugees and constantly banging on about 'taking our county back's as if we've so.ehow been invaded

The whole debate (well OK, most of the Leave campaign...) has been a shameless rush for the populist Daily Wail vote, a competition as to who can shout loudest about immigration, who can raise the fear and threat levels the most. It's shown the career politicians who are so desperate to further their own cause that they'll be blatantly hypocritical (Boris...) and ultimately it's been a thoroughly dreadful call from Cameron to even hold a referendum - he's doing it for Tory party politics, not the good of the UK or Europe.

An issue like this is far too nuanced and complicated to be decided by the sheer ****ing idiots that make up a significant percentage of the UK population especially when the noise that's surrounding them about it is the right wing press stoking fear and anger over "immigration" (as though that will miraculously stop on Friday 24th).

It's properly screwed the economy already, it's distracted attention from other critical areas of politics and it's shown a very disturbing vision of the worst aspects of politics (or more specifically, certain politicians) and of society.

Wobbliscott - well argued and meaning but wrong. The gap between rich and poor countries is narrowing not widening. There may well be genuine concern about immigration and that is fair enough. But these are not the concerns that are central to this debate. Instead the "facts" (sic) about immigration have been grossly distorted as part of the VL strategy. This has been shameful and unbecoming of a civilised society but not new - history tells us that it is a strategy used over and over again, Why? Because it works. Blame Johhny F (or the whole EU) for our problems because it makes us feel better. The fact that the problems have nothing to do with Johnny F and his/her mates is why accusations of xenophobia are raised and rightly so. That is democracy at work - the power of people to speak up and demolish such vile accusations. And note how the leading figures in VL - Bojo and Farrage - are past masters of shouting people down. They are the epitome of those who prefer to suppress the truth and the words of others, just watch them on TV at any time.

So we are seeing the exact opposite of what you describe, Democracry and free speech are working. The uncomfortably truth for much of VL is that their lies and smeers are exposed for what they are. That they don't worry about this and continue nonetheless is testament to their arrogance and attitude to those they serve. The scare mongering over immigration and deliberate and inaccurate blaming of Immigrants is why accusations of xenophobia and/or racism have been levelled at the. And rightly so, they (at least the former) are deserved. Democracy at work and we are better for it.

So those branding everyone who dares to raise the issue of immigration or question it as racists are just exposing the fact that it is they who are small minded, undemocratic and pretty arrogant., People who lower themselves to these tactics that have caused more damage to the democratic process over the past couple of decades causing vast swathes of people to be scared to open their mouths and speak their minds. Suppression of free speech - straight out of the first chapter of the Facist Dictator's textbook.

You utterly failed to take the moral high ground there and did exactly what you claim others do.

It's blindingly obvious any racist will oppose immigration and these are [some of]your fellow out voters and campaigners*.

May I politely ask you get your own house in order, the campaign stop playing the race card with Hitleresque poster campaigns and you distance yourself from these racists rather than shout fascist at those who point this out to you

Any legitimate debate on immigration was not in one way helped by that piece of hyperbolic BS you just served up or the shit Farage and his ilk serve up.

* Its true that not all of those who oppose immigration will be racist

what crazy-legs has said.

Linking Jo's terrible murder to this campaign is just going after the symptom not the cause. This guy was going to murder at some point anyway.

+1 what junkyard said. Plus the guy in question was described by those who knew him as friendly and harmless. Somehow he got radicalised...

An issue like this is far too nuanced and complicated to be decided by the sheer **** idiots that make up a significant percentage of the UK population especially when the noise that's surrounding them about it is the right wing press stoking fear and anger over "immigration" (as though that will miraculously stop on Friday 24th).

It's properly screwed the economy already, it's distracted attention from other critical areas of politics and it's shown a very disturbing vision of the worst aspects of politics (or more specifically, certain politicians) and of society.

Exactly!

I heard someone on the street being interviewed a few days ago and she said something very similar - along the lines of "this is what we elect and pay politicians to do...make the difficult decisions for us".

Radicalised? This wing that wing? Hitler? Perspective please.

i think we give the BSers too much credit to link the silly poster to Hitler, That would be showing some intellgence albeit then using it in an unpleasant way. Much more likely to have memories that struggle to get past Saachi's Labour isn't working poster IMO - could be wrong but in this case would be unhappy to be proved so as that is stooping very low indeed.

bowglie - Member

An issue like this is far too nuanced and complicated to be decided by the sheer **** idiots that make up a significant percentage of the UK population especially when the noise that's surrounding them about it is the right wing press stoking fear and anger over "immigration" (as though that will miraculously stop on Friday 24th).

It's properly screwed the economy already, it's distracted attention from other critical areas of politics and it's shown a very disturbing vision of the worst aspects of politics (or more specifically, certain politicians) and of society.

Exactly!

I heard someone on the street being interviewed a few days ago and she said something very similar - along the lines of "this is what we elect and pay politicians to do...make the difficult decisions for us"

And its for this reason (inability for the average person to understand) that politicians are playing on emotion and the whole thing is getting ugly. Putting aside yesterdays tragic murder, views on the referendum seem increasingly fuelled by hatred and intolerance, primarily (IMHO) at the moment coming from the leave campaign, but if we do vote leave I imagine a significant amount of intolerance will be coming from the failed remain camp.

We are showing our country up in a vile light and right now I'm utterly ashamed to be British.

Immigration has been a real and growing issue for the past 5 (?) years, not just here but throughout Europe, in my view its been a bigger issue in France, Austria, Italy and Germany than in the UK. The mainstream parties and in particular the EU have [b]spectacularly failed to deal with it[/b], as such the electorate is looking towards parties that will discuss it. Its not beyond the realm of possibility that the immigration issue sees Labour in England reduced to its status in Scotland (as highlighted in the Guardian piece - Hampstead not Hull as Burnham said)

We are showing our country up in a vile light and right now I'm utterly ashamed to be British.

@ferral see my point above

Austria just had a presidential election where ant-immigration candidate lost 49.7 vs 50.3
Germany had weekly anti Muslim rallied with 20-40,000 people attending and a growing euro-sceptic AfD party (most people now do not want Merkel to stand for re-election)
France has Marine Le Penn with highest portion of popular vote and who will eject Hollande and the governing Socialists from thenPresidential election run off next year
Holland has a strongly anti-immigrant political movement with a strong say in Parliament

We are showing our country up in a vile light and right now I'm utterly ashamed to be British.

Aren't referenda great! 🙄

And for one of the best yet, we go over to Jonathan Pie at the travel desk:

I keep hearing the Farage-ism that we our "discriminating against people from outside the EU".

As far as i'm aware immigration is about 300,000 at the moment, 50% from the EU, 50% non-EU.

Is anyone actually campaigning to Leave on the basis that we replace the 150,000 EU immigrants with non-EU?

Or is this nonsense.

jambalaya - Member

Immigration.....

Personally I think immigration is a massive bogey-man.

Firstly many sources say immigration a net benefit to the country. Beyond the classic "poster-immigrant" of a nurse etc., I know of several people who get seasonal workers over form the EU to help with harvest as there isn't a local workforce willing to do the job. Without EU workers their farms would struggle to survive.

Secondly levels are not that massive. Immigration (incl asylum seekers) for 2015 was 333,000 (stats [url= http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics ]here[/url]) of which over half was non-EU, so we are talking 180,000 that might not come to UK if we leave EU.

Thirdly I would be shocked if we didn't have to conform to EU migration rules if we wanted a free trade agreement as movement of people is intrinsically linked to an open market.

Is it not the case that EU migrants come to work *because* there are jobs? And the reason there are jobs is because there aren't Brits doing them?

RIP and well done to the brave officers who arrested him.

@ninfan 🙂

@ferrals why don't you listen too what Jeremy Corbyn was saying about the EU when he stood for election as Labour leader those short few months ago, facebook link on my earlier post. Remain is in deep trouble as no one really believes in the European [b]Union[/b] their most powerful argument is its less bad than their view of the future.

Is anyone actually campaigning to Leave on the basis that we replace the 150,000 EU immigrants with non-EU?

What the statistics look like in the future will depend upon the decisons our government takes, ie the government we elect. Maybe we will favour visa from China and India as part of an attractive free trade deal with them.

A big chunk of non-EU immigration is student visas, ie people paying to come here to study and claiming zero welfare plus spousal visas plus non-EU work visas which would be focused on high paying specialist jobs (visa application has to prove skills and qualifications and are often internal transfers).

@molgrips as many immigrants say they are coming to do jobs the Brits won't do not least as the wages are too low. Think about that for a minute.

referenda

I'm sorry - can't let this go anymore - it is referendums not referenda - it is a gerund so the plural means vote on (multiple) things - not multiple votes.

@molgrips as many immigrants say they are coming to do jobs the Brits won't do not least as the wages are too low. Think about that for a minute.

Good job they come.

Well said Ferrals

sadly that message has been drowned out in this debate, by VL constantly screeching that immigration is terrible and everyones worried about it.

This hysteria has framed the debate (across Europe) Its meant that Remain (and Labour) are too scared to push the benefits of immigration mas the looney right wing press will shoot them down

It also has meant that real issues that people feel about fear of loosing their regional identity and extra pressure put on local services arent properly addressed either, as these would require money and the current government is all about austerity and withdrawing support at local council level

The EU is okay...it could be truly great, but in order to do so, it needs reform. Cameron tried to get that ball rolling, but the resistance from EU policy makers was marked. Their resistance could well be the straw that broke the back of the EU.

Britain is heading for a "leave" vote. The remain campaign haven't done enough to prove that immigration isn't a problem that can't be solved within Europe, They also haven't done enough to publicly champion what the EU currently does for the UK and it's people. The Remain campaign seems to have largely collapsed, whilst the the Leave campaign are continuing to stir the base emotions in towns where people (somewhat irrationally) believe that immigration is the reason for all of their problems.

Sadly, this referendum will be decided not by [u]enlightened[/u] self interests, but misinformed, un-enlightend and provincial attitudes.

I work for Airbus and am strongly considering moving myself and my family to France or Germany in the event of a leave vote.

Immigration/migration is a fact of life. It's always happened and it always will - you've seen that bar in Star Wars right?

Medecine Sans Frontiere refused further donations from the EU over its migrant deal. What will all your Remainers do when the unelected "anyone but the Tories" EU shifts to a political place you don't like ? Fundamentally that is Corbyn's point of view

[url= http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36558694 ]BBC Story[/url]

I'm sorry - can't let this go anymore - it is referendums not referenda - it is a gerund so the plural means vote on (multiple) things - not multiple votes.

If I knew what the Latin equivalent of Chapeau was I'd post it 🙂

[i]@molgrips as many immigrants say they are coming to do jobs the Brits won't do not least as the wages are too low. Think about that for a minute.[/i]

Seasonal work though is just that, seasonal - so folk are either working, so can't take on seasonal work or they're unemployed. Also seasonal work is often in areas of low population, so there just isn't the people there to do the work.

If you're unemployed while you will earn more money working it's not enough to cover yourself when it takes a further 6 weeks or so for the Govt to restart your benefits. Just not worth it.

The whole racist immigration row is a complete red herring. After a Brexit, we want a free trade agreement with the EU, which will certainly - as it does with existing agreements - require free movement of people.

On illegal immigration, a Brexit vote will hardly tear down the camp at Sangatte, or stop people climbing into lorries. We also aren't suddenly going to employ 20,000 border guards to patrol our coast.

I am no great supporter of the structure of the EU, but I am completely unconvinced by the lack of definitive agreements from VL.

My postal vote went in yesterday - Remain.

I'm sorry - can't let this go anymore - it is referendums not referenda - it is a gerund so the plural means vote on (multiple) things - not multiple votes.

All a matter of taste.

If I knew what the Latin equivalent of Chapeau was I'd post it

Petasus, according to google. There is an easy illustration of the point, the motto of Victoria University of Manachester is "Arduus ad solem", singular because there is one sun whereas the motto of the RAF is "Ardua ad astra", plural because there are a number of stars.

Firstly many sources say immigration a net benefit

My Bulgarian builder and his Plaster mates has made a bloody good job of my new kitchen.